Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[cookie365]

Can you show us proof that the majority of Southern passengers back these strikes, I'd say that's extremely unlikely to be the case but I'm willing to be corrected if you know otherwise ?

I know of at least 6 people who initially had sympathy for the guards, but who consider a 5 day strike is just a p*take that has made them to switch support to Southern.

I don't know a single person who has sympathy with this particular strike.

Including me. And I hate Southern

 

[infobleep]

Can you show us proof that the majority of Southern passengers back these strikes, I'd say that's probably unlikely to be the case but I'm willing to be corrected if you know otherwise ?

Can you show proof they are don't back these strikes. I can't give proof that they do but neither can I give proof that they don't.

Interesting that Southeen haven't put out a press release saying passengers don't ba k the strikes. You'd think they might have carried out a survey to find out. Perhaps they did and didn't like the findings.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Antman]

Can you show proof they are don't back these strikes. I can't give proof that they do but neither can I give proof that they don't.

Interesting that Southeen haven't put out a press release saying passengers don't ba k the strikes. You'd think they might have carried out a survey to find out. Perhaps they did and didn't like the findings.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Would Southern really have gone to all that bother?

 

[AlterEgo]

Would Southern really have gone to all that bother?

Of course they wouldn't.

The passengers aren't taking sides, they just want their trains back. I've yet to read in the news of a single passenger who cares about DOO, I'm afraid.

Still, at least the latest RMT communiqué isn't banging on about Tory beanos, blokes, and class struggle.

 

[Steveoh]

I'm down in Southern land tonight and the Beeb have just interviewed Paul Cox of the RMT on the local news. I thought he did quite well. Got points over about safety and a second trained member of staff; that the strike wasn't about who closes the doors; questioned the sickness claims of Southern; got in that Charles Horton is a non-exec of RSSB and a couple of other things too. No rants or anything.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Nonsense to say manning levels on aircraft should set the standard for rail. Aircraft have triplicate safety systems but when they fail they fail unsafe & fall five miles to the ground, on Lockerbie for example. A train that fails just stops, & even in the Severn tunnel or Forth bridge is accessible.

A train that fails doesn't just stop. It could get thrown violently into the air, get bent out of shape have other vehicles from the train or another train piled above or below it. It could have high voltage cables wrapped around it, or have a bodyshell that is live (not know of it happening, but it is possible) due to being wedged on a live rail and not touching a running rail. It's a sitting duck for being hit at speeds of up to 125 MPH or 186 MPH (on HS1) for 5 minutes or so after it comes to rest.

And a point of order. Clipper maid of the seas didn't fail. It was blown up in mid air and fell over Lockerbie and a lot of the surrounding area. Most planes that fail are actually flying fairly low at the time as incidents of actual mechanical failure or pilot error tend to be on take off or landing, not miles up in the sky.

And Grayrigg, just how accessible was it? I believe it took some time for the emergency services to arrive because of how inaccessible it was.

Also the signalling can fail unsafe too. Just one stray cable can cause a signal that should be at danger to display a proceed aspect, as happened at Clapham Junction, or a reset of an axle counter at the wrong moment can cause a signal to display a proceed aspect when a train is within the section (as might have happened in the Severn Tunnel)
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Can you show proof they are don't back these strikes. I can't give proof that they do but neither can I give proof that they don't.

Interesting that Southeen haven't put out a press release saying passengers don't ba k the strikes. You'd think they might have carried out a survey to find out. Perhaps they did and didn't like the findings.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I'm sure they don't back the disruption, however empathise with the staff taking industrial action and have decide the blame lies not with the strikers, but with the inept management, who were also responsible for the crap service that was running prior to the strikes.

 

[XDM]

Southern guards are being used by the RMT high ups. Having lost on the Southern they desperately want to put off other TOCs from adopting drivers doing doors. They want to frighten off the other TOCs by making the price,in terms of sustained service disruption,too high.
However they are wrong. It may strengthen the resolve of the other TOCs if some Southern guards decide the RMT's £200 does not compensate for £700 lost pay & the risk of being a marked man after August 21. Even if the 5 day strike goes ahead the new work methods will come in soon after so the message to the other TOC's is RMT are paper tigers.
RMT have just been told by their lawyers that telling their members not to do new route learning is illegal, so they have just withdrawn the instruction. If they had not,their guards could have been liable to civil costs & unchallengable sacking. Following the RMT looks increasing like obeying Lord Cardigan of the light,& then dead,brigade.

 

[Phil.]

I'm down in Southern land tonight and the Beeb have just interviewed Paul Cox of the RMT on the local news. I thought he did quite well. Got points over about safety and a second trained member of staff; that the strike wasn't about who closes the doors; questioned the sickness claims of Southern; got in that Charles Horton is a non-exec of RSSB and a couple of other things too. No rants or anything.

A second trained member of staff who isn't first aid trained and isn't allowed to drive the train in an emergency. C'mon RMT you're going to have to do better than that to get the passengers on your side.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Hopefully this image works...

 

[Phil.]

A train that fails doesn't just stop. It could get thrown violently into the air, get bent out of shape have other vehicles from the train or another train piled above or below it. It could have high voltage cables wrapped around it, or have a bodyshell that is live (not know of it happening, but it is possible) due to being wedged on a live rail and not touching a running rail. It's a sitting duck for being hit at speeds of up to 125 MPH or 186 MPH (on HS1) for 5 minutes or so after it comes to rest.

And a point of order. Clipper maid of the seas didn't fail. It was blown up in mid air and fell over Lockerbie and a lot of the surrounding area. Most planes that fail are actually flying fairly low at the time as incidents of actual mechanical failure or pilot error tend to be on take off or landing, not miles up in the sky.

And Grayrigg, just how accessible was it? I believe it took some time for the emergency services to arrive because of how inaccessible it was.

Also the signalling can fail unsafe too. Just one stray cable can cause a signal that should be at danger to display a proceed aspect, as happened at Clapham Junction, or a reset of an axle counter at the wrong moment can cause a signal to display a proceed aspect when a train is within the section (as might have happened in the Severn Tunnel)
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I'm sure they don't back the disruption, however empathise with the staff taking industrial action and have decide the blame lies not with the strikers, but with the inept management, who were also responsible for the crap service that was running prior to the strikes.

Before you go off on a rail accident scenario do try and learn how the system actually works.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Before you go off on a rail accident scenario do try and learn how the system actually works.

Umm, a stray wire DID cause the Clapham crash.

You reset an axle counter it CAN display a proceed aspect.

The systems work to a design. Human error can circumvent this.
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A second trained member of staff who isn't first aid trained and isn't allowed to drive the train in an emergency. C'mon RMT you're going to have to do better than that to get the passengers on your side.

A second member of staff who does know the route, knows how fast trains are likely to be travelling on other lines, knows about the electrification, knows how to get passengers to safety.

The chances of a first aid trained person on most services is high. They don't have to be employed by the railway.

 

[Flamingo]

A second trained member of staff who isn't first aid trained and isn't allowed to drive the train in an emergency. C'mon RMT you're going to have to do better than that to get the passengers on your side.

Before you go off on a rail accident scenario do try and learn how the system actually works.

Phil, the role of the guard is not to simultaneously give first aid to 200 people. The role of the guard is not to give first aid at all. It is to assess, report and manage the incident. If they are busy putting a bandage on somebody, they are not doing their job.

And I cannot think of a single emergency scenario outside of a Hollywood script where the Guard would need to know how to drive.

As you said, before you go off on a rail accident scenario, do try and learn how the system actually works.

 

[FordFocus]

You reset an axle counter it CAN display a proceed aspect.

It should be noted that newer installations of axle counters can be remotely reset.

Make what you want out of that. I asked about safeguards and was told someone needed to countersign a piece of paper whilst all the trains had stopped.

 

[chris11256]

Phil, the role of the guard is not to simultaneously give first aid to 200 people. The role of the guard is not to give first aid at all. It is to assess, report and manage the incident. If they are busy putting a bandage on somebody, they are not doing their job.

And I cannot think of a single emergency scenario outside of a Hollywood script where the Guard would need to know how to drive.

As you said, before you go off on a rail accident scenario, do try and learn how the system actually works.

Perhaps slightly out of context, but on Eurostar isn't the train manager trained to drive in an emergency? Thats what I was told a while back anyway.

 

[FordFocus]

RMT have just been told by their lawyers that telling their members not to do new route learning is illegal, so they have just withdrawn the instruction. If they had not,their guards could have been liable to civil costs & unchallengable sacking. Following the RMT looks increasing like obeying Lord Cardigan of the light,& then dead,brigade.

Have you a source for that as that makes no sense.

Southern are short on guards so can't exactly release them for route learning. Further more if this grand scheme idea of making guards sign a new OBS contract come the end of August there won't be a requirement for route knowledge as the services become DOO. Why spend the money on route learning?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Perhaps slightly out of context, but on Eurostar isn't the train manager trained to drive in an emergency? Thats what I was told a while back anyway.

I believe that isn't the case anymore. But you are right, the Chef du Train used to be a driver, and would either have been the driver on the previous service, or would be the driver on the return.

They are not a train manager (guard) as employed on other TOCs though

 

[Minstral25]

Saw this list earlier about London Metro Services and wondered how accurate it is? If it is accurate it asks a question of RMT why they are striking when so much of other services are DOO anyway

SWT is 100% conductor operated

On Metro Services
MTR(Shenfield) 100% DOO
Greater Anglia all DOO to Chelmsford
London Overground 100% DOO
CTC - 100% DOO
Chiltern 100% DOO south of Banbury (except Loco Hauled)
London Midland All Driver/Guard - corrected
GWR Thames Valley DOO
Thameslink 100% DOO
Southern 42% DOO (100% Metro) and 58% Conductor
South Eastern is 100% DOO Metro
London Underground 100% DOO
Docklands Light Railway - automatic trains

 

[chris11256]

Saw this list earlier about London Metro Services and wondered how accurate it is? If it is accurate it asks a question of RMT why they are striking when so much of other services are DOO anyway

SWT is 100% conductor operated

On Metro Services
MTR(Shenfield) 100% DOO
Greater Anglia all DOO to Chelmsford
London Overground 100% DOO
CTC - 100% DOO
Chiltern 100% DOO south of Banbury
London Midland 100% DOO
GWR Thames Valley DOO
Thameslink 100% DOO
Southern 42% DOO (100% Metro) and 58% Conductor
South Eastern is 100% DOO Metro
London Underground 100% DOO
Docklands Light Railway - automatic trains

On c2c they're expanding the DOO. Sometime this year 12 carriage trains will become DOO, they've recently been going round installing new DOO equipment to cater for it.

Plus the DLR does have a member of staff onboard every train. They open/close the doors and control the train in an emergancy,

 

[FordFocus]

Saw this list earlier about London Metro Services and wondered how accurate it is? If it is accurate it asks a question of RMT why they are striking when so much of other services are DOO anyway

SWT is 100% conductor operated

On Metro Services
MTR(Shenfield) 100% DOO
Greater Anglia all DOO to Chelmsford
London Overground 100% DOO
CTC - 100% DOO
Chiltern 100% DOO south of Banbury
London Midland 100% DOO
GWR Thames Valley DOO
Thameslink 100% DOO
Southern 42% DOO (100% Metro) and 58% Conductor
South Eastern is 100% DOO Metro
London Underground 100% DOO
Docklands Light Railway - automatic trains

Chiltern isn't DOO on loco sets. London Midland has no DOO.

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps slightly out of context, but on Eurostar isn't the train manager trained to drive in an emergency? Thats what I was told a while back anyway.

I knew somebody would come up with something! (It is Railuk, after all).

Ok, I can't think af any scenarios outside of the Channel Tunnel etc.

 

[74A]

Have you a source for that as that makes no sense.

Southern are short on guards so can't exactly release them for route learning. Further more if this grand scheme idea of making guards sign a new OBS contract come the end of August there won't be a requirement for route knowledge as the services become DOO. Why spend the money on route learning?

Source is the RMT website. With the changes being made some depots are gaining new routes. Selhurst I believe it says on the RMT site.

 

[Tomnick]

It should be noted that newer installations of axle counters can be remotely reset.

Make what you want out of that. I asked about safeguards and was told someone needed to countersign a piece of paper whilst all the trains had stopped.

Slightly off-topic, but axle counters can be restored remotely (i.e. from the box) in more recent schemes. The protecting signal is still held at danger though, until the section has subsequently been 'swept' by a train (unless they've been upset by engineering work in a possession, and appropriate 'reminders' applied first). Seems far safer than earlier installations - the one that I dealt with required co-operative restoration with the S&T (in the relay room), but didn't really prove anything before the first train could run at linespeed.

 

[nom de guerre]

It should be noted that newer installations of axle counters can be remotely reset.

Make what you want out of that. I asked about safeguards and was told someone needed to countersign a piece of paper whilst all the trains had stopped.

The signaller carries out a checklist of precautions and these are then verified, and countersigned, by a "second competent operator" - usually the shift manager - before a reset can be attempted.
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Understanding and accepting its limitations is very important. Putting all your eggs in one basket is not the best idea. GSM-R big red button is awesome.. but still failed. Not the first incident either. I personally missed a serious incident (by luck) and the Sig wanted to stop me in an emergency. The STOP message sent to my GSM-R failed and I continued. The Sig had to contact me "old school" to stop my train.

STOP message?

 

[ComUtoR]

STOP message?

Exactly what it says on the tin. The Signaller can send you or all trains a single STOP message via the radio. Very loud beep and STOP comes up on the GSMR display. Suffice to say you need to stop ASAP.

The GSMR doesn't always receive them. Because, well, technology isn't perfect.

 

[whoosh]

I believe that isn't the case anymore. But you are right, the Chef du Train used to be a driver, and would either have been the driver on the previous service, or would be the driver on the return.

That was (don't know if it still is) the case for French crews, but not the English ones. The English drivers always drove, and English Train Managers were always in the train. The Train Manager in the rear half was trained to drive the train out of the channel tunnel in an emergency, making a wrong direction move from the rear cab.

 

[JamesTT]

I believe that isn't the case anymore. But you are right, the Chef du Train used to be a driver, and would either have been the driver on the previous service, or would be the driver on the return.

They are not a train manager (guard) as employed on other TOCs though

Is that what it sounds like the driver was also trained as a chef?

 

[maniacmartin]

'Chef du Train' literally translates to Head of the Train, which sounds more like Train Manager to me

 

[AlterEgo]

'Chef du Train' literally translates to Head of the Train, which sounds more like Train Manager to me

I think it's actually a role more like what VTEC are proposing - Crew Leader. A safety critical member of staff who is also the direct manager of everyone on the train.

 

[Phil.]

I believe that isn't the case anymore. But you are right, the Chef du Train used to be a driver, and would either have been the driver on the previous service, or would be the driver on the return.

They are not a train manager (guard) as employed on other TOCs though

I'll just clear this one up for you. UK crewed Eurostar services carried a Driver and two Train Managers. One of the Train Managers was qualified to drive the rear half of a split train (a 373 is really two dead-ended nine coach trains joined back to back) within the Eurotunnel area. The idea being that in an emergency in the tunnel a train could be split (this was all carried out from within the train) and each half would be cleared through each end of the tunnel. The French and Belgians wouldn't have one of their Train Managers driving and so on French and Belgian crewed trains there would be two Drivers and one Train Manager. The second driver acted as the second Train Manager. Splitting a train never happened and nor was it likely as any train in trouble in the tunnel was shunted out with Eurotunnel's Krupps Locos. Nevertheless Eurostar persisted in keeping up the Train Manager driver training until quite late in the day.
The Train Managers were qualified in the same N.R. rules as domestic Guards all the time that the service used domestic lines. I'm not so certain about that since HS1.
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Phil, the role of the guard is not to simultaneously give first aid to 200 people. The role of the guard is not to give first aid at all. It is to assess, report and manage the incident. If they are busy putting a bandage on somebody, they are not doing their job.

And I cannot think of a single emergency scenario outside of a Hollywood script where the Guard would need to know how to drive.

As you said, before you go off on a rail accident scenario, do try and learn how the system actually works.

I know that and after 41 years I'm well aware of how it all works.
Firstly a failed train grinds to a halt - if it isn't already stationary - or is that stationery, I can never remember. It doesn't go hurtling down the track.
Secondly there is no risk of being struck from behind by a 186 mph train.
Just those two scenarios alone tells me the poster doesn't really have a clue.
Now, first aid. Person on a train loses their footing on the way back from the toilet and falls over whilst the train clatters over a crossover. Person strikes head, blood everywhere. What does the Guard do? No first aid training, person starts to feel faint and dizzy......
I was once on a train that ground to a rather rapid halt between Ashwell and Royston. Turned out that the driver had collapsed. Fortunately there was an off duty driver on board who drove it to Royston where an ambulance was called (no cell 'phones in those days). If there hadn't been a driver it would have been a bu66er to get someone along to the train. Now, suppose that Guards were authorised to drive a train - their train - to the next station.
The fact is - and it's no use the RMT burying their collective heads in the sand - is that a combination of technology and change has rendered the traditional Guard's job redundant. Sure you still need a Guard over A.B. lines but otherwise you don't. The Guard's job over the years has become one of customer service. There is no mail, no parcels, no livestock. No brake tests on fixed formation trains.
The public aren't behind this strike and without public support they're lost. As fast as various people stick their heads over the parapet and talk about safety of the train and it's passengers the opposition will fire back with Bedford to Brighton, London to Kings Lynn and Peterborough to London.

 

[Flamingo]

Is that 41 years working on trains, or travelling on them?

Well, Guards do have enough first aid training to put a bandage on a head. It's not rocket science. If there was a Neurosurgeon or A&E consultant on board, it is pretty-much all they could do in that scenario.

A driver collapsing scenario is not endangering the train to a large extent - it will delay it, but that's a different scenario. That's what the various safety systems in the cab are there to mitigate, and the decision was made many years ago that one Driver was all that was needed.

I agree that some of the traditional Guard roles have gone (as some Drivers roles), but the basic role of "Guarding the Passengers (from themselves)" is still there, and still required. I do agree, this message is not getting across as well as it could, through a combination of misleading statements from Management, and inerta from the travelling public.

Most of a Guards duties are low-key, and for this reason, are not recognised - indeed, on a lot of trains, are not needed. However, once they are not there, then they will be missed.

Personally, I think that if Guards agreed to work for minimum wage, this desire to remove staff from trains would not be happening - it is cost-led (backed up by McNulty), and how many posts on this thread are indirectly objecting to our wages?