Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Flamingo]

Every job has elements that are not experienced by anyone not doing that job - there are aspects to being a milkman or a bus driver that you or I know nothing about, but pretending that passenger commentators know nothing at all - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about the workings of the railway or an on train worker's job and duties is asinine and arrogant. Many of those commentating will be regular rail users and will understand the difficulties when the unexpected occurs. This contempt of anyone who doesn't happen to be a guard (or driver) is particulalry galling when listening to the RMT's desire to cite "passenger safety" as a bargaining chip while treating those passengers with the such didain in their actions. I for example travelled on four separate Southern trains two weekends ago and on all the journeys I did not see the guard at all and two of these trains were only 4 coaches long. Perhaps if he or she was relieved of the onerous task of supervising the doors at every station they would have a more reassuring presence on the rest of the train where they were so conspicuously absent. My "safety" was neither here nor there with regard to the doors. If anything the mundane task of having to deal with them every 5 minutes probably compromised it for more vulnerable travellers.

What incidents happened to you or other passengers around you that the guard ignored, or how many vulnerable passengers did you see who's safety was compromised?

 

[Dave1987]

Yes that is correct. The next train along can only be stopped by use of GSMR emergency call.

Are you under the impression that the GSMR is infallible? Because it isn't.

 

[Harbon 1]

Planes have two pilots because of CRM and being able to solve problems a computer is incapable of, yet is the safest form of transport.

Do DOO supporters think pilotless planes should be implemented because it saves on cost?

 

[Haig paxton]

I don't think one man or woman sitting in a cab watching up to 24 sets of doors on tiny screens is the safest way to dispatch or run a railway for anyone's sake. I don't care which body says it's been fine since 1983, there is a better way.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Planes have two pilots because of CRM and being able to solve problems a computer is incapable of, yet is the safest form of transport.

Do DOO supporters think pilotless planes should be implemented because it saves on cost?

That's a bit of a straw man argument, clearly not! The opposite (and equally absurd) question would be whether anti-DOO people think that all cars should have a guard travelling inside just in case something happens!

Perhaps we could get back to discussing the pros and cons in a reasoned manner rather than resorting to silly analogies.

 

[LowLevel]

**** the doors. On one route I work we are under a permanent lack of reliance on GSMR because it cannot step between signalboxes. I have dealt with everything from a driver falling to bits to a passenger bleeding out. If you think a single driver is all you need to get on with this anywhere then fine. I will remind you of drivers copping a breeze block to the face to a car being parked on an AHB crossing. I can show you a picture of one of our drivers, now DMs, being carried out of his train on a spinal board on an incident GSMR would never have stopped.

GTR want to make the second person, on any line, an option. I've waited long enough for BTP or a MOM to attend in rural areas to know that anyone who thinks the driver is enough out of metropolitan areas can drop dead.

 

[Harbon 1]

That's a bit of a straw man argument, clearly not! The opposite (and equally absurd) question would be whether anti-DOO people think that all cars should have a guard travelling inside just in case something happens!

Perhaps we could get back to discussing the pros and cons in a reasoned manner rather than resorting to silly analogies.

Touché

Though cars are not 'public' transport

But yes I'll leave it now

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I don't think one man or woman sitting in a cab watching up to 24 sets of doors on tiny screens is the safest way to dispatch or run a railway for anyone's sake. I don't care which body says it's been fine since 1983, there is a better way.

And as I've said before, it's a different railway and a different society and a different world than 1983

1983, if you passed a signal at danger, the signalman would often say : "You Tw*t, carry on an obey the next one "

in 2016, you have a SPAD and ASLEF say : " We think we may be able to save your job"

Can we have 1983 back there ? Oh no, it's a different railway, and society and world, but hey, DOO isn't different in 2016 than it was in 1983
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's a bit of a straw man argument, clearly not! The opposite (and equally absurd) question would be whether anti-DOO people think that all cars should have a guard travelling inside just in case something happens!

Perhaps we could get back to discussing the pros and cons in a reasoned manner rather than resorting to silly analogies.

His point did have value, and as people seem to have huge difficulty - but many, many opinions on the matter, -in understanding why drivers and guards are so against DOO, perhaps plain analogy, in crayon letters are of use.

cars are not public transport, they do not carry 1000 passengers, none of whom can operate or drive said car and incidents do not take place on an unfamiliar environment possibly with broken 25,000 volt wires all over the shop.

But I agree in principle, lets stick to talking about trains and refrain from offering opinions from a point of ignorance

 

[LBSCR Times]

I'm not an armchair expert. How many inquires have you given evidence at?

Precisely!
It seems that one can have a view on everyone else's job but you comment on their job and you're instantly jumped on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure his family love him dearly, he's kind to stray animals, and he donates to his local school choir when they are carol-singing at Christmas.

However, he is ultimatly responsible for all this (or least for doing the DfT's bidding).

One salient point - if he's that good at his job and as knowledgable about the railway as you (and XDM) claim, he must know that there is much more to having a guard on a train than who is "pushing a button", as he calls it.

Therefore he is either a liar or a fool. You pick.

Neither, and he is more clever than you think or want to know.

 

[HH]

A couple of thoughts about Mr Horton.

1. Isn't there a conflict of interest if he is a board member of both RSSB and GTR?

2. The GTR approach has been decidedly nasty from the off. Either Mr Horton is the author of that approach or he is happy to be paid a large sum of money each year for the privilege of carrying it out. In neither case does it appear to reflect well on him as a person, however nice he is to stray cats or old ladies.

 

[highdyke]

If you find people pointing out the deficiencies in your knowledge base insulting, then there is not much point you continuing.

And I see you ignored the rest of my post - including the bit about sticking to the point...

"Armchair expert" and "you don't know anything" is insulting. There's things I know that you might not be aware of, and vice versa. I'd prefer an air of mutual respect tbh, especially as I have a lot of experience with the system and incident management.

Okay, I'm not expert on doors - not that it's a PHD subject - but others have assessed it and I'm happy to trust their judgement, like you do when you get the gas fitter round or go to the doctors.

It's not to say that people like guards and drivers have no valid points, but convincing arguments need to be more than just a one off or anecdotal. Telling people they know nothing and sod off or drop dead doesn't advance anyone's case.

The RMT and ASLEF would be more convincing if they published an independent scientific review done by leading safety experts. At the moment they seem to want to push the argument that someone less qualified in the rule book and is paid less (the Guard) should take all the flack for door operation, even though one poor sod went to jail: IE The two people is better than one with door operation doesn't hold much water when you look at incidents in Merseyside and back in the late 70s in Paisley.

Personally I've never been in favour of just one person on a train, unless it's something like an emergency ECS move or special during disruption. The rural argument doesn't hold much water either, there are plenty of places DOO is operating in rural areas without incident.

What needs to happen is where the operator wants to bring in DOO on a specific line, a safety team needs to be put together, which includes people like driver leaders, trade unionists, and those risks need to be identified and managed, and if they can't do that, it shouldn't be allowed. This is the sort of compromise I'd like to see.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

"Armchair expert" and "you don't know anything" is insulting. There's things I know that you might not be aware of, and vice versa. I'd prefer an air of mutual respect tbh, especially as I have a lot of experience with the system and incident management.

Okay, I'm not expert on doors - not that it's a PHD subject - but others have assessed it and I'm happy to trust their judgement, like you do when you get the gas fitter round or go to the doctors.

It's not to say that people like guards and drivers have no valid points, but convincing arguments need to be more than just a one off or anecdotal. Telling people they know nothing and sod off or drop dead doesn't advance anyone's case.

The RMT and ASLEF would be more convincing if they published an independent scientific review done by leading safety experts. At the moment they seem to want to push the argument that someone less qualified in the rule book and is less paid, should take all the flack. The two people is better than one with door operation doesn't hold much water when you look at incidents in Merseyside and back in the late 70s in Paisley.

Personally I've never been in favour of just one person on a train, unless it's something like an emergency ECS move or special during disruption. The rural argument doesn't hold much water either, there are plenty of places DOO is operating in rural areas without incident.

What need to happen is where the operator wants to bring in DOO on a specific line, a safety team needs to be put together, which includes people like driver leaders, trade unionists, and those risks need to be identified and managed, and if they can't do that, it shouldn't be allowed. This is the sort of compromise I'd like to see.

So you are
not in favour of a TOC saying : " We will bring in DOO, because we want to and that's it, accept it or get stuffed, there is the door "

 

[highdyke]

So you are
not in favour of a TOC saying : " We will bring in DOO, because we want to and that's it, accept it or get stuffed, there is the door "

Actually no. it should have been at least 2 years of consultations. Nor am I in favour of one person being on trains except in very defined circumstances. I am in favour of adopting new technology and roles being redefined where sensible and safety is managed.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Actually no. it should have been at least 2 years of consultations. Nor am I in favour of one person being on trains except in very defined circumstances. I am in favour of adopting new technology and roles being redefined where sensible and safety is managed.

Then we agree there, but I'm still never going to claim I have any input on signalling other than to obey it to the letter

 

[speedy_sticks]

The FACT is that disabled folks will suffer if the platform isn't staffed under DOO.

If the OBS staff carry out platform duties at every stop that is different.

"Armchair expert" and "you don't know anything" is insulting. There's things I know that you might not be aware of, and vice versa. I'd prefer an air of mutual respect tbh, especially as I have a lot of experience with the system and incident management.

Okay, I'm not expert on doors - not that it's a PHD subject - but others have assessed it and I'm happy to trust their judgement, like you do when you get the gas fitter round or go to the doctors.

It's not to say that people like guards and drivers have no valid points, but convincing arguments need to be more than just a one off or anecdotal. Telling people they know nothing and sod off or drop dead doesn't advance anyone's case.

The RMT and ASLEF would be more convincing if they published an independent scientific review done by leading safety experts. At the moment they seem to want to push the argument that someone less qualified in the rule book and is paid less (the Guard) should take all the flack for door operation, even though one poor sod went to jail: IE The two people is better than one with door operation doesn't hold much water when you look at incidents in Merseyside and back in the late 70s in Paisley.

Personally I've never been in favour of just one person on a train, unless it's something like an emergency ECS move or special during disruption. The rural argument doesn't hold much water either, there are plenty of places DOO is operating in rural areas without incident.

What needs to happen is where the operator wants to bring in DOO on a specific line, a safety team needs to be put together, which includes people like driver leaders, trade unionists, and those risks need to be identified and managed, and if they can't do that, it shouldn't be allowed. This is the sort of compromise I'd like to see.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Every job has elements that are not experienced by anyone not doing that job - there are aspects to being a milkman or a bus driver that you or I know nothing about, but pretending that passenger commentators know nothing at all - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about the workings of the railway or an on train worker's job and duties is asinine and arrogant. Many of those commentating will be regular rail users and will understand the difficulties when the unexpected occurs. This contempt of anyone who doesn't happen to be a guard (or driver) is particulalry galling when listening to the RMT's desire to cite "passenger safety" as a bargaining chip while treating those passengers with the such didain in their actions. I for example travelled on four separate Southern trains two weekends ago and on all the journeys I did not see the guard at all and two of these trains were only 4 coaches long. Perhaps if he or she was relieved of the onerous task of supervising the doors at every station they would have a more reassuring presence on the rest of the train where they were so conspicuously absent. My "safety" was neither here nor there with regard to the doors. If anything the mundane task of having to deal with them every 5 minutes probably compromised it for more vulnerable travellers.

Did you travel in a wheelchair?

 

[XDM]

Did you travel in a wheelchair?

After a skiing accident I travelled on speedy sticks for 8 weeks.

 

[speedy_sticks]

After a skiing accident I travelled on speedy sticks for 8 weeks.

Did you travel by train in it? If so, what assistance did you need?

 

[Carlisle]

Actually no. it should have been at least 2 years of consultations. Nor am I in favour of one person being on trains except in very defined circumstances. I am in favour of adopting new technology and roles being redefined where sensible and safety is managed.

So under your system we'd have 2 years of management being told continuously we won't accept any extension of DOO/DCD under any circumstances, then what do you propose ?

 

[highdyke]

So under your system we'd have 2 years of management being told continuously we won't accept any extension of DOO/DCD under any circumstances, then what do you propose ?

No it can only work if they do accept DOO, and agree with work with safety authorities. If they are hostile to this suggestion, and do not wish to compromise, I would argue the unions are not fit for purpose. They should then be brought into binding arbitration on the matter, and the matter judged from an independent panel.

Further to that, I would bring certification for training out of the hands of the TOCs, along the lines of the airline industry. Staff numbers and recruitment should be written into franchise agreements, all TOCs should look to make Sundays part of the working week, with flexibility brought in to allow those that do not want to work Sundays to opt out.

We should never have this situation again where companies are held to ransom, through unofficial action, whether that's a situation they have brought on themselves or otherwise.

 

[redbutton]

Not all DOO is the same...
If you look back to very early on in this thread you will find this discussed.
Southern 377s have Automatic Selective Door Opening (ASDO) and Correct Side Door Opening (CSDO) using track mounted balises. (Other trains e.g. SN455s and other operators e.g. SE don't have this on their trains so may have issues with wrong side opening).

I and probably many others would be delighted to hear if you have evidence that these safety systems aren't working on 377s.

SDO does work everywhere (or at least it fails safe), but since the driver opens the doors whether there is a guard or not, that's moot.

The PIBS beacons required to operate CSDE haven't been installed everywhere; I believe they're only available at the highest-risk stations on the BML, not on any branches.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

No it can only work if they do accept DOO, and agree with work with safety authorities. If they are hostile to this suggestion, and do not wish to compromise, I would argue the unions are not fit for purpose. They should then be brought into binding arbitration on the matter, and the matter judged from an independent panel.

Further to that, I would bring certification for training out of the hands of the TOCs, along the lines of the airline industry. Staff numbers and recruitment should be written into franchise agreements, all TOCs should look to make Sundays part of the working week, with flexibility brought in to allow those that do not want to work Sundays to opt out.

We should never have this situation again where companies are held to ransom, through unofficial action, whether that's a situation they have brought on themselves or otherwise.

Accept extension to DOO ??

Now I know you truly know nothing whatsoever about working a DOO train as a driver or a guard or a non DOO train as a driver and guard even though you have clearly done every other single job on the railway from stair sweeper to head of BR.

Judged by an independent panel ? What one made up of people who know even less that you, yet, like you, claim to know it all ?

Certification out of the hands of TOCs, like airlines ? So you have PTF, and pay yourself to upgrade from a 150-1 to a 150-2 ? Walk into the RSSB like you do the CAA - with an open cheque book, paying for your own commercial licence etc.etc.

But no doubt you know ALL about the aviation industry - because you know everything about everything, just as you know everything about everything on the railway.

The unions are not fit for purpose ? What purpose is that ? To be a lap dog to an employer and the DFT or to protect their members, and the safety of their members ?

What unofficial strike action ? I know of none. But no doubt, because you know everything about everything, you have some insight not known to we mere mortals of drivers and guards.

And, in closing you last part shows your true, colours, as does a trawl through your anti-anti-anti posts on here.

Even if a company has brought this situation on themselves, they should not be held to ransom - let's substitute ransom with the word you truly mean shall we -

Even if a company has brought this situation upon themselves, they should not be held accountable or to blame, it's all the fault of those nasty unions, and those evil guards and drivers.

What is it with you, are you another one who wanted to be a driver, and never was, and therefore hate us all with a deep and abiding passion ? I've seen it thousands of times and you really begin to fit the mould

 

[highdyke]

Accept extension to DOO ??

Now I know you truly know nothing whatsoever about working a DOO train as a driver or a guard or a non DOO train as a driver and guard even though you have clearly done every other single job on the railway from stair sweeper to head of BR.

Judged by an independent panel ? What one made up of people who know even less that you, yet, like you, claim to know it all ?

Certification out of the hands of TOCs, like airlines ? So you have PTF, and pay yourself to upgrade from a 150-1 to a 150-2 ? Walk into the RSSB like you do the CAA - with an open cheque book, paying for your own commercial licence etc.etc.

But no doubt you know ALL about the aviation industry - because you know everything about everything, just as you know everything about everything on the railway.

The unions are not fit for purpose ? What purpose is that ? To be a lap dog to an employer and the DFT or to protect their members, and the safety of their members ?

What unofficial strike action ? I know of none. But no doubt, because you know everything about everything, you have some insight not known to we mere mortals of drivers and guards.

Ah your true colours are showing, you think there should never be any compromise at all. You think a group of people with vested interests, should be running multi-billion industries where public money is stake.

It's like any dispute between parties, eventually someone has to rule on the matter. That is the mark of civilization, you cannot have a group with a vested interest running everything, it produces social chaos.

It is with great regret, the whole matter brings into question further rail investment and whether the DFT should be switching investment toward Light rail, Bus rapid transport, cycling and other forms of transport.

One thing that is quite apparent is you utterly lack the imagination and intellect to fully understand that more than one party is involved in this dispute.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Ah your true colours are showing, you think there should never be any compromise at all. You think a group of people with vested interests, should be running multi-billion industries where public money is stake.

It's like any dispute between parties, eventually someone has to rule on the matter. That is the mark of civilization, you cannot have a group with a vested interest running everything, it produces social chaos.

It is with great regret, the whole matter brings into question further rail investment and whether the DFT should be switching investment toward Light rail, Bus rapid transport, cycling and other forms of transport.

One thing that is quite apparent is you utterly lack the imagination and intellect that more than one party is involved in this dispute.

And you, lack the simple ability to see beyond the fact that you know nothing of what you are actually discussing, my lack of intellect ? Your backside kissing, naivety is astounding :

I quote " YOU CANNOT HAVE A GROUP WITH VESTED INTERESTS RUNNING EVERYTHING "

What planet do you actually live on ? Is it the same one as me ? Groups with vested interests run everything, for the benefit of their own wealth, advancement and power, in every facet of existence.

Switch investment to light rail, bus transport and cycling from the railway ?

Ah now we get to the crux, your colours shine through, great, let's turn the GWR line from Swansea to London into a bus route with a cycle path alongside shall we ? Good luck with that one, I'll tell my mate that commutes from Wales to the city that he'd better invest in a new bike shall I ? Lets make it into a nice, 20 MPH light rail system, hey at least it's still steel wheels on steel rails !

You show me one point in this whole sorry saga, where anyone has said anything to the unions other than : "like it or lump it, we know best, now go away and do as you're told serfs "

I will not accuse YOU of not being intellectual, as I know nothing about you personally, and don't think for one second you are unintelligent from reading your posts.

 

[highdyke]

And you, lack the simple ability to see beyond the fact that you know nothing of what you are actually discussing.

You show me one point in this whole sorry saga, where anyone has said anything to the unions other than : "like it or lump it, we know best, now go away and do as you're told serfs "

One this is quite clear you are not prepared to listen to any other point of view, yet I have listened to yours. I have already said that various parties should be involved in developing this method of working, more than they perhaps have done in the past. What's wrong with that?

The fact is you are an angry little man that is incapable of finding work outside the rail industry because of your own personal failures. That is why you are so frightened and do not want to compromise.

 

[speedy_sticks]

One this is quite clear you are not prepared to listen to any other point of view, yet I have listened to yours. I have already said that various parties should be involved in developing this method of working, more than they perhaps have done in the past. What's wrong with that?

The fact is you are an angry little man that is incapable of finding work outside the rail industry because of your own personal failures. That is why you are so frightened and do not want to compromise.

Highdyke by ignoring my comment your making it plain that you don't care about disabled passangers.

 

[Domh245]

Highdyke by ignoring my comment your making it plain that you don't care about disabled passangers.

To me, it looks like Highdyke is motivated by the bottom line and nowt else.

 

[highdyke]

Highdyke by ignoring my comment your making it plain that you don't care about disabled passangers.

I'm not going answer every comment, because the forums just turns into me droning on. I'm caring for a disabled person right now, that's one reason I think the OBS is a good idea, provided every train (within reason) has one on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To me, it looks like Highdyke is motivated by the bottom line and nowt else.

No I'm motivated by Rail as a mode of transport that is fit for the 21st century, that is not held to ransom by political organisations to force their will on everyone else. I would like to see more rail reopenings, more jobs, not less. There are realities to this and we cannot have rail at any price.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

One this is quite clear you are not prepared to listen to any other point of view, yet I have listened to yours. I have already said that various parties should be involved in developing this method of working, more than they perhaps have done in the past. What's wrong with that?

The fact is you are an angry little man that is incapable of finding work outside the rail industry because of your own personal failures. That is why you are so frightened and do not want to compromise.

angry little man ? I'm a tall chap, I have several other qualifications and a degree, I have had another career, in fact 2, before I became a driver ( I am, sadly, that old )

Frightened, me ? As a driver why would I be frightened, I'll have a job whatever, unlike the poor flippin' guards. MY fear is for the safety of my passengers with DOO.

My personal failures ? What ones are they ? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm sure you can. because we've already established that you know everything about everything that everyone else does on the railway

Once again, you are talking about something you know NOTHING about from a position of utter ignorance. Your last post proved it to me, and I'm sure a lot of others most succinctly ( what does that word mean again please because I'm un itellecthual amd dun now these big words )

 

[highdyke]

angry little man ? I'm a tall chap, I have several other qualifications and a degree, I have had another career, in fact 2, before I became a driver ( I am, sadly, that old )

Frightened, me ? As a driver why would I be frightened, I'll have a job whatever, unlike the poor flippin' guards. MY fear is for the safety of my passengers with DOO.

My personal failures ? What ones are they ? I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm sure you can. because we've already established that you know everything about everything that everyone else does on the railway

Once again, you are talking about something you know NOTHING about from a position of utter ignorance. Your last post proved it to me, and I'm sure a lot of others most succinctly ( what does that word mean again please because I'm un itellecthual amd dun now these big words )

Prove to me there is a safety issue with OBS and not a Guard, think about the bigger picture, prove there could be a way forward. Unless you do those things you will be open to these kinds of judgements.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Highdyke by ignoring my comment your making it plain that you don't care about disabled passangers.

I'll talk about disability from a driver's point of view

The timetable can go hang itself if a wheelchair user, or someone infirm is slow getting on, if they need extra help, I'm out of my cab helping the guard with the ramp, or the pushing etc..