Possible plans for Edinburgh Waverley station?

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect the mesanine idea may well meet with a fare amount of opposition both from locals, historians and the recently rererere-named Waverley mall as the idea would of course be to create new retail units and relocate current ones and I can see the shopping centre in particular creating about this.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I suspect the mesanine idea may well meet with a fare amount of opposition both from locals, historians and the recently rererere-named Waverley mall as the idea would of course be to create new retail units and relocate current ones and I can see the shopping centre in particular creating about this.

The mezzanine would be the only way to simultaneously provide more space for both trains and passengers. The western platforms could be extended by a few carriage lengths but only by wiping out the main waiting area before the barriers, plus the shops on either side. In addition, by using the mezzanine level as the main concourse, it becomes much more practical to convert terminating to through platforms. Since all passengers and their luggage have to enter the station on the current footbridge level anyway, if they can access all the shops and services on that level there won't be any extra level changes by knocking through platforms.

 

[47271]

I didn't even know about this bridge till I seen it on Lost Edinburgh. Would be great if they put it back!

I often wondered about the remains of this bridge as I came and went from the Calton Road entrance so I checked the CEC planning doc from 2009.

It actually ran from Calton Road to Jeffrey Street and so extended right across Market Street, and was the responsibility of the council, not the railway. It was built as a right of way following the expansion of the station in the late nineteenth century. It was taken out of use for repairs as long ago as 1958 and the section crossing Market Street demolished in 1974 to make way for the signalling centre, so not really feasible to reinstate.

They stripped it out and reclad it in the most recent works, by the looks of things a lot easier than trying to remove it completely.

There's quite a few photos of the section crossing Market Street, and other parts of it, on the Lost Edinburgh Facebook page if anyone wants to have a look.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Since all passengers and their luggage have to enter the station on the current footbridge level

...

Is access via the ramp from Waverley Bridge no longer available?

If so, it's closure has escaped my attention.

 

[90019]

Both ramps are still open to pedestrians.
There's also the entrance from Calton Road, which brings you in next to platform 2.

 

[Altnabreac]

Is access via the ramp from Waverley Bridge no longer available?

If so, it's closure has escaped my attention.

The point being that if all the proposed capacity works were carried out this would definitely involve removing the south ramp from Waverley Bridge and possibly the north ramp.

At this point the central island of the station would only serve 8 out of 20 platforms so would be less of a focus for passengers than it is now when it serves 12 out of 17 platforms.

So you'd probably focus more passengers onto the mezzanine via Market Street and Waverley Steps.

However you'll still always have shops and facilities on the ground level as the Old Booking Hall is part of the listed element of the station and can't be unduly altered. When Railtrack were talking about completely New Streeting the station in the late 90s the outcry was over proposals to demolish that section and build through platforms.

That will never be allowed and 14-17 will always remain bays but the plans in the draft route study would certainly create a lot more capacity without completely changing the character of the station.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think there would still be outcry today booking hall or not, people round here can be very narrow minded. They would also have to play any mid level very carefully as it could become very grin at platform level, something often complimented on, the amount of natural light.

Removing the North ramp would I feer also create problems for service vehicles such as rail gormless amd those delivering to the station itself as well as removing a fire exit that doesnt depend on steps or powered people moving devices which could well be unusable in an emergency
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I were Network rail, the council and Lothian Buses I would aquire Waverley Mall and redevelop it into shops, refreshment areas, booking office, tourist info, wating area for tour bus and airlink, bus travel shop, toilets, showers and what have you and internally reorgonise the old listed booking hall into wating area, FC lounge, more toilets and travel information desk meaning no change to walkways etc and all the through platforms youd want

 

[Altnabreac]

I think there would still be outcry today booking hall or not, people round here can be very narrow minded. They would also have to play any mid level very carefully as it could become very grin at platform level, something often complimented on, the amount of natural light.

Removing the North ramp would I feer also create problems for service vehicles such as rail gormless amd those delivering to the station itself as well as removing a fire exit that doesnt depend on steps or powered people moving devices which could well be unusable in an emergency
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I were Network rail, the council and Lothian Buses I would aquire Waverley Mall and redevelop it into shops, refreshment areas, booking office, tourist info, wating area for tour bus and airlink, bus travel shop, toilets, showers and what have you and internally reorgonise the old listed booking hall into wating area, FC lounge, more toilets and travel information desk meaning no change to walkways etc and all the through platforms youd want

Mezzanine would presumably be over the current shops and circulation area with 14 - 17 extended underneath the mezzanine.

I suspect though that the north ramp would need to remain to provide service access etc. Will have a look next time I'm in Edinburgh to see how easy it would be for 18 to extend through the station without removing the north ramp.

Removing the south ramp and extending 12 and 13 as through platforms would actually open up that part of the station and bring in more natural light to the west bay area.

I'm sure people would get used to a mezzanine pretty quickly. It's clear that demand is only going to grow at Waverley over the next 20 years and with HS2 on the way demand for 400m platforms would need further alterations.

The really difficult thing to deliver is 400m platforms at Haymarket. Not really possible without completely closing Haymarket East junction.

 

[Zoidberg]

The point being that if all the proposed capacity works were carried out this would definitely involve removing the south ramp from Waverley Bridge and possibly the north ramp.

...

Thank you. I did not infer that context from the post and would have been most surprised to have learned that the ramp access had been removed since I walked past them earlier this month.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is access via the ramp from Waverley Bridge no longer available?

If so, it's closure has escaped my attention.

It's not closed yet but fundamentally all passengers have to pass by the current footbridge level, as the station is below the rest of the city and all passenger entrances and exits. After the addition of a mezzanine level, the current pedestrian access to the platform level from Waverley Bridge could be replaced by pedestrian access straight to the mezzanine.

I think there would still be outcry today booking hall or not, people round here can be very narrow minded. They would also have to play any mid level very carefully as it could become very grin at platform level, something often complimented on, the amount of natural light.

Removing the North ramp would I feer also create problems for service vehicles such as rail gormless amd those delivering to the station itself as well as removing a fire exit that doesnt depend on steps or powered people moving devices which could well be unusable in an emergency
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If I were Network rail, the council and Lothian Buses I would aquire Waverley Mall and redevelop it into shops, refreshment areas, booking office, tourist info, wating area for tour bus and airlink, bus travel shop, toilets, showers and what have you and internally reorgonise the old listed booking hall into wating area, FC lounge, more toilets and travel information desk meaning no change to walkways etc and all the through platforms youd want

I think it would be entirely feasible to build a mezzanine which would not detract from the passenger experience. In this case, the mezzanine wouldn't be there simply to add more shops on top of the existing concourse, thereby making the public areas beneath dark and dingy. Instead, the point is to allow the space underneath to be handed over to railway operations. So long as sufficient space for escalators and lifts is provided, there would be no reason for passengers to spend any length of time down at platform level underneath the mezzanine.

If New Street is the old way of decking over the railway, then the plans for the HS2 platforms at Euston are the new way. There will be an airy concourse at ground level and people will only go down to the platforms when their train is ready, via multiple sets of escalators and lifts distributed evenly along the length of the platform. All trains will be electric so there is no problem of diesel emissions, as will likely be the case in Edinburgh around the time this mezzanine would be added.

 

[47271]

I don't have a problem with a mezzanine at Waverley so long as sensitive to the existing architecture and, as others have observed, doesn't create a New Street style gloom.

I like the Princes Mall aquisition as in idea, the place isn't doing much in its present form, I can't think of any reason ever to go in, but it's really quite large and over a number of levels, it'd be quite a complex integration?

The new Kings Cross is another example of a mezzanine level that doesn't detract from either the main concourse or the the experience at platform level.

 

[Blindtraveler]

whilst its a big area quite a lot of it will be taken up with new lifts and whatever to reach platforms and with a remoddled and expanded foodcourt including the existing outlets as well as a decent pub with seating and kitchen. Add to it a booking office with all facilities, toilets and showers, offices and service areas, lothian buses office travelshop relocated from waverley bridge, tourist info intigrated rather than current seperate entry and a few shops such as boots and some of the upmarket crap found at places like the cross youd have a great complex there
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The booking office could even have desks for citylink, nat x, scottish internal ferries and flights and tours with funding from multiple sauces including the council in there roll of welcoming people

 

[matchmaker]

The privately owned coffee shop/cafe within Stirling station closed down last week too. Was very expensive compared to the place across the road - wonder if rent was very high.

Pumpkin closed? Not surprising. Within 5 minutes you have Macdonalds, Subway, the cafe across the road as mentioned, and several other food outlets. Also, the cafe at the adjoining bus station does good bacon rolls!

 

[mark-h]

However you'll still always have shops and facilities on the ground level as the Old Booking Hall is part of the listed element of the station and can't be unduly altered. When Railtrack were talking about completely New Streeting the station in the late 90s the outcry was over proposals to demolish that section and build through platforms.

That will never be allowed and 14-17 will always remain bays but the plans in the draft route study would certainly create a lot more capacity without completely changing the character of the station.

Keeping 14-17 as (extended) bay platforms would not be a huge problem as there will be a lot of terminating services arriving at the West end of the station.

I like the Princes Mall aquisition as in idea, the place isn't doing much in its present form, I can't think of any reason ever to go in, but it's really quite large and over a number of levels, it'd be quite a complex integration?

Waverley Mall is currently fairly full of shops which have moved out of St James Centre. Once the new St James opens I suspect a lot of the higher value retailers will move back leaving Waverley Mall empty again.

A more complete rebuild of the mall would be a nicer option as the current layout is quite limited. There would also be the opportunity to use its service yard to serve the station (and Balmoral Hotel) allowing both station ramps to be removed/used for pedestrian access to the mezzanine level.

 

[47271]

Waverley Mall

So uninteresting is this shopping centre to me I'm still calling it by its old name, and I must see its signage at least twice a week!

 

[Zoidberg]

So uninteresting is this shopping centre to me I'm still calling it by its old name, and I must see its signage at least twice a week!

Waverley Market?

 

[47271]

This piece from the Evening News of 17 July last year tells you all you need to know about the many, mainly downwards, fluctuations in fortune, and name changes, of the place.

The manager of Spud-U-Like, sounding a positive note, pretty much hits the nail on the head in the final paragraph.

Apparently there are now departure screens and ticket machines in the food court, we must all visit!

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ll-to-be-rebranded-as-waverley-mall-1-3833215

Princes Mall to be rebranded as Waverley Mall
JOHN-PAUL HOLDEN

IT’S a retail complex located next door to Waverley station – but many of the rail hub’s 25 million annual passengers would be forgiven for missing it entirely.

Now bosses at Princes Mall want to bring the train station “into” the shopping venue in a bid to boost its profile and capitalise on the closure of the St James Centre.

They have unveiled proposals to install arrival and departure screens alongside ticketing machines in the centre’s food court as part of a rebranding which will see their building renamed Waverley Mall.

It is hoped the £4 million transformation – which has already seen the mall’s aisles widened and ceilings restructured – will encourage passengers to shop by providing them with direct access to travel times and ticket information.

Mall chiefs said the centre’s position below street level meant travellers were often oblivious to its presence, adding that the rebranding was aimed at highlighting links with the station.

Advertising screens running the length of Waverley Steps will also be erected to promote firms trading within.

The move comes as the mall’s managers continue negotiations with St James tenants seeking alternative accommodation before the centre closes for redevelopment.

Martin Botha, the centre manager, said: “We want to provide our customers with an offer where they can sit and enjoy their meal without having to rush down to the train station, so we’ll have new departure and arrival screens within our food court, ticket machines where they can grab their tickets and relax before they rush down and grab their train.”

Princes Mall quickly established itself as one of Edinburgh’s most popular shopping destinations after it was opened by the Queen as Waverley Market in July 1985.

But its fortunes later waned amid a perception it was focused on the youth and fast food sectors. Now, with footfall growing 20 per cent year on year, centre bosses want to widen its appeal.

Ilan Goldman, portfolio manager at mall owner Catalyst Capital, said: “You can’t ignore where we sit – wedged between Princes Street and the station. This has to be a bit more ‘all things to all people’.

“A lot of the mainstream fashion retailers – ideally, they’d look at Princes Street and if they can’t find a home there because of high rents then they’ll look elsewhere and that’s where we’re attractive.”

Mr Botha added: “Historically, our footfall print is more from the younger market and what we’re looking to do is create a modern, contemporary setting where families can enjoy a great shopping experience.”

Amanda Tarrant, manager at Spud-U-Like, which has a branch in the food court, said: “I think there’s more of an open, family atmosphere here – it’s enjoyable for everyone now.”

 

[Zoidberg]

From the link in post #167 ...

Princes Mall quickly established itself as one of Edinburgh’s most popular shopping destinations after it was opened by the Queen as Waverley Market in July 1985.

The premises was known as the Waverley Market for decades before 1985.

In the 50s and 60s, at least, it hosted a carnival/fun fair at Christmas, with shows and exhibitions (Ideal Home Exhibition for one, as I recall) at various times during the year.

Oh, happy days

 

[Starmill]

Don't think this has been posted. The Whistlestop shop has been closed down and a Paperchase is opening in its place. Good to get something different in the station!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand paperchases in stations. I am all for retail diversification, but who is about to get on a train and finds themselves in desperate need of a pencil case?

 

[najaB]

I don't understand paperchases in stations. I am all for retail diversification, but who is about to get on a train and finds themselves in desperate need of a pencil case?

I suspect a lot of their business will be pens and puzzle books, much like the WH Smiths.

 

[asylumxl]

I suspect a lot of their business will be pens and puzzle books, much like the WH Smiths.

They also sell cards I think? For people with no forward planning ability, that might be useful.

 

[och aye]

I didn't even know about this bridge till I seen it on Lost Edinburgh. Would be great if they put it back!

As if by magic. This appeared on the SSC forum:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=132538231&postcount=300

Taking up a cause where others have tried and failed, Spokes are lobbying for the reinstatement of the pedestrian footbridge linking Jeffrey Street and Calton Road across the roof of Waverley Station.

Extract from their submission to the Network Rail Scottish Route Study Consultation (pdf):

Quote:
Edinburgh Waverley East Side Access Bridge

We propose re-instating the former pedestrian bridge from the Old Town to the Waverley entrance at Calton Road, as a combined pedestrian/cycle bridge. This old map shows the route of the former bridge - though it would not necessarily have to follow exactly the same route.

• The bridge would give a great and much needed new access to the east end of Waverley Station from the Southside, the Old Town and the Parliament.

• Pedestrians and cyclists could easily travel from the Old Town and Southside to the north, Leith, the new St James Quarter, Waverley, etc, without losing height, and avoiding the heavy traffic on the Bridges and the very difficult junction at the East End at the top of Leith Street.

• It could be an iconic and high profile project for both Network Rail and the City of Edinburgh, which could possibly look to outside funding for a great design, as has been the case with a number of pedestrian/cycle bridges elsewhere, such as the Newcastle Millennium Bridge.

• We understand that the east end of Waverley Station is due to get a great deal of work, new platforms etc, and the bridge could be designed to coordinate with that, thus hopefully reducing costs and giving an integrated design.

A couple of images of the old footbridge recently posted on Lost Edinburgh.

Oh and apologies again for replying to this thread which is something related to the topic of the title.

 

[Altnabreac]

As if by magic. This appeared on the SSC forum:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=132538231&postcount=300

I'm not convinced by its utility as a cycle bridge. Once you've descended to that point of Calton Road you're not losing much more height to go down to New Street. The steep slog is from the Calton Road entrance to Leith Street.

Equally for pedestrian access to the station you're not going much further along to access the Market Street entrance so if it only descends to the station by the Calton Road entrance then it's of limited utility unless you're heading for Platform 2.

On the other hand as a route from East Market Street, providing access from Waverley Court, New Street car park directly to the east end of the station it could have value as the station expands eastwards.

You'd be looking at around 4 new accesses with Lift and Escalators (New Street, 8&9, 7&6, 5&4) so it wouldn't come cheap. You'd also need to staff the new entrances if you wanted barriered platforms at that end of the station but it's not impossible.

 

[endecotp]

I wonder when the original bridge was removed.

 

[47271]

I wonder when the original bridge was removed.

See my post 153 above, there's a potted history there.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm not convinced by its utility as a cycle bridge. Once you've descended to that point of Calton Road you're not losing much more height to go down to New Street. The steep slog is from the Calton Road entrance to Leith Street.

shorter (especially if heading for Pleasence and points south). When cycling unless you're after a work out every last metre of ascent you can avoid is to be cheered. New Street itself is an unrelenting 6-7% gradient. A foot and cycle bridge would be a welcome break from impatient motor vehicles.

And not much height? Really? It's the entire height of the station roof plus the additional height required to get the roadway low enough to give 3.2m clearance (so say 3.5m) under the bridge structure which is probably at least a metre or more below the track.

 

[Class 170101]

I knew back in the Railtrack days they had plans to build a shopping centre type facility above the vast air rights they hold, but were scuppered by the heritage watchdogs.

Not to be recommended now surely? Need we mention Gerrards Cross?

 

[edwin_m]

Not to be recommended now surely? Need we mention Gerrards Cross?

Done successfully at Victoria (both London and Manchester), Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Liverpool Street. In all these places the development was essentially a conventional structure just tweaked to put the supporting columns between the tracks and leave enough hadroom. There's no technical reason whatsoever why that couldn't be done at Waverley, though I agree it's unlikely to be permitted.

What came unstuck at Gerrards Cross was a different method, building a relatively thin arch over the tracks then filling above it with earth. It appears to have been filled unevenly, which created unbalanced forces on the arch. According to Wikipedia the design eventually completed looked similar but had a much stronger arch and various other changes.

 

[mark-h]

Waverley Station is class A listed so getting permission would not be easy.

Raising the height of the station roof would also be resisted as it would have a major impact on the city centre.

 

[och aye]

Someone from Network Rail once described doubling Calton South to me as "virtually impossible".

Any ideas why?