Gatwick Express Industrial Relations

[birchesgreen]

Returning to the original news story at the start of the thread i read

"And because the new carriages are slightly shorter than on the old trains, the 12-carriage trains are only actually 14 metres longer than the ones they replace."

Is it just me or is 14m actually quite a difference

 

[bluenoxid]

The same argument could be made for additional guards, dispatchers and even a secondman?

It is a balance of risks but you need to discuss changes with your workforce representatives at the very least.

It depends what you are talking of with regards to 14 metres. The trains are already pushing past 200 metres, so it is probably around 7% additional length. My concern is that whilst 14 metres doesn't sound long, can we be confident that it is adequately covered.

 

[Bald Rick]

http://www.aslefsouthern.org.uk/docs/GX_cos/GX Conditions of Service Oct 2012.pdf

Well that puts a different slant on it. No mention of train length. Indeed it is the standard BR era DOO agreement, with one amendment from 1997 re staffing of stations where DOO kit has failed.

However it is possible that there is a separate specific agreement that does detail it. If so, and if I were ASLEF, I would publish it to show all concerned what the issue actually is.

 

[NSEFAN]

There's little point in getting lost in "what-ifs", as this will just descend into a standard I love/I hate DOO thread.

It appears that the current agreement on Gatex for DOO is for no more than 10 cars. In which case, there needs to be an agreement in place to permit 12 car operation. If Govia want 12 car DOO then they should talk to the union about it, or otherwise roster enough guards so that 12 car services can run as intended.

This need to agree changes with the unions might seem weird to people who aren't involved in the industry, but the railway is still a highly regimented place where procedures are established and followed to the letter. "It's only 2 extra coaches, what's the harm?" doesn't make it okay for a driver to deviate from the agreed methods of working. If they did, and something went wrong, they would be the one to get it in the neck. The James Street incident made this quite clear.

 

[spangles]

Well that puts a different slant on it. No mention of train length. Indeed it is the standard BR era DOO agreement, with one amendment from 1997 re staffing of stations where DOO kit has failed.

However it is possible that there is a separate specific agreement that does detail it. If so, and if I were ASLEF, I would publish it to show all concerned what the issue actually is.

I think Rick has a point here. There appears to be no such agreement (at least within the t&cs which limits DOO to 10 car trains. I can therefore understand GTRs logic:
- 12 car operates on majority of that line already (with the same units)
- ASLEF drive vets drive such trains therefore they themselves can not believe there is a safety issue
- under the T&Cs this is not prohibited
- drivers are not not being asked to drive these trains when they have been trained by n them
- this is a DOO approved route

Why should they therefore have expected an issue here?

 

[Domh245]

It depends what you are talking of with regards to 14 metres. The trains are already pushing past 200 metres, so it is probably around 7% additional length. My concern is that whilst 14 metres doesn't sound long, can we be confident that it is adequately covered.

It may be 14m longer, but there are also 4 extra doors for the driver to now watch and act on during door operations.

 

[Stow]

I understand GTR have consultative rights with the union, as opposed to needing to 'agree' everything with them. Meaning they discuss changes but can end up with differences of opinion and forcing them through as Sarahj says.

I could imagine the conversation went something like this;
TOC: Can we speak with you about 12 car introduction as DOO
ASLEF: No
TOC: Ok then, we have tried to consult but you won't talk to us so we will run a train and see what happens.

ASLEF now have to come to the table to discuss, otherwise any industrial action could be illegal.

Wonder where this will go now, difficult for ASLEF to stick to their DOO policy given other parts of same TOC.....

 

[infobleep]

It's a question, but not the key one, which is (I think); was agreement reached or even thought to be needed, for the specific GatEx 12 car operations, or did GTR management assume that the agreement (again, assuming one is in place) for TL 12 car trains would cover the issue? If it hadn't been this 'launch' working, the issue would have arisen, presumably, the first time a 12 car formation was used.

A further question might be; what is different about the GatEx workings in ASLEF's view that sets them apart from the TL workings with virtually the same stock on almost the same route?

Well it's a different brand so it can't apply. Perhaps ASLEF could try and issue a penalty fair notice to Govia for trying to run a Thameslink brand agreed 12 car service on Gatwick Express brand service where it's not been agreed!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[neilm]

It may be 14m longer, but there are also 4 extra doors for the driver to now watch and act on during door operations.

Is that true though? all stations they stop at have dispatch staff?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is that true though? all stations they stop at have dispatch staff?

I don't think that's the case - there's a 12 car DOO service on its way to Brighton now that stops at Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes but aren't you mostly referring to a previous time period , SWT as we know it hasn't long left to run anyway , TFL will take over some services which may or may not become DOO at some point ,and a future operator will decide on the rest depending I suppose mainly on what's agreed between them and the DFT for the next franchise

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/Guards.aspx

Seems pretty current to me and the same publicity is published in full size poster form around their stations at the moment. Far from playing on the DfT/McNulty line of keeping quiet/encouraging DOO.

If any future operator tries it they can expect a full scale attack as DOO is not in any way shape or form even tenuously agreed on SWT following the 1990s issues. The management coming around to the union's train of thought over a period of time is rather unusual and may even be a record!

You might also note from casual observation of Stagecoach Group guards that unlike at other TOCs there has been no direction not to wear the yellow RMT 'keep the guard on the train' badges...

So again, hopefully the drivers and guards on GTR can come up with something. Or at the very least cause the poor excuses for human beings coming up with these ideas some sleepless nights and time away from their families in the process. And yes, I really do bitterly hate them in the same way the miners carry a special card for Thatcher (whether justified or not).

 

[neilm]

I don't think that's the case - there's a 12 car DOO service on its way to Brighton now that stops at Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park.

I do not see any Gatwick Express doing that

Gatwick Express off peak seem to be VIC, GTW, sometimes HHE and BTN.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If there is no agreement you don't allocate 12 cars to a train that can't be worked as a 12 car. Who knows what control were doing, not controlling, clearly... The driver can't take it if there is no agreement to do so, the question is how /why did a 12 car end up in the platform for it.

It would be a planning issue rather than control. Control react to issues brought to their attention - quite often as a result of planning errors.

 

[hwl]

Returning to the original news story at the start of the thread i read

"And because the new carriages are slightly shorter than on the old trains, the 12-carriage trains are only actually 14 metres longer than the ones they replace."

Is it just me or is 14m actually quite a difference

230m vs 244m and the 387s have in cab monitors and carriage mounted cameras

 

[Surreytraveller]

.............

 

[hwl]

It may be 14m longer, but there are also 4 extra doors for the driver to now watch and act on during door operations.

Note swap from platform staff and slam door DOO to train mounted cameras, in cab monitors, automatic doors with sensing and smaller platform train gaps

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't think that's the case - there's a 12 car DOO service on its way to Brighton now that stops at Burgess Hill, Hassocks and Preston Park.

As has been alluded to elsewhere on the thread, the limits of the agreement have been stretched. Certainly when the first Thameslink 12-cars operated they did only stop at the stations with despatch; the Electrostars were always on the fasts.

I would say credit to the driver for sticking to his guns. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I can't help wonder why GoVia stuck a 12-car out at 5.30 on a Saturday morning, when a) you'd normally fit all the prospective passengers into a minibus and b) normally GoVia have no urge to stick anything more than four cars out off-peak even when it's busy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Note swap from platform staff and slam door DOO to train mounted cameras, in cab monitors, automatic doors with sensing and smaller platform train gaps

The in-cab monitors don't change the fact there's another four sets of doors to watch out for.

I think Merseyrail guards can tell us a few things about the dangers of the passenger-train interface...

 

[Surreytraveller]

There is at least one other operator who had a similar issue with ASLEF recently, where members were instructed not to drive longer trains under DOO, but on an erroneous basis, as train length was not specified in the DOO agreement. Needless to say in that case the longer trains are running DOO now.

Perhaps the definition of how length is measured needs to be clarified? If the agreement says 'coaches', then the driver has done nothing wrong. If the agreement says 'metres', then if the train was longer than the agreed length for DOO, then the driver has done nothing wrong. The company appear to be trying to bend agreed rules. If it was the other way around, and a member of staff were trying to bend the rules, would the company be so willing to accommodate?

 

[Greenback]

I would say credit to the driver for sticking to his guns. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I can't help wonder why GoVia stuck a 12-car out at 5.30 on a Saturday morning, when a) you'd normally fit all the prospective passengers into a minibus and b) normally GoVia have no urge to stick anything more than four cars out off-peak even when it's busy.

It's either incompetence or a deliberate attempt to bully drivers. I know which one I think is more likely.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I guess it's all perception as you say. As an outsider looking in, it seems odd to me that ASLEF can accept a train in one part of a franchise but then disagree with it elsewhere. It makes them look fickle. Yes I know ex-southern and ex-FCC have different terms, but to the general public it just looks like whining to extract yet another allowance after already receiving above inflation pay rises.

Perhaps what ASLEF should be doing is, rather than saying Gatwick Express should be operating 12 car DOO under a Thameslink agreement, perhaps they should be refusing 12 car DOO on Thameslink under a Gatwick Express agreement.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps what ASLEF should be doing is, rather than saying Gatwick Express should be operating 12 car DOO under a Thameslink agreement, perhaps they should be refusing 12 car DOO on Thameslink under a Gatwick Express agreement.

It looks like Thameslink drivers are on better terms than Gatwick Express with a pay rise to £49,000 agreed for the latter this year, while the former go up to £51,000. I wonder if the underlying reason is ASLEF want the Gatwick Express drivers brought up to Thameslink level.

 

[Bald Rick]

Perhaps the definition of how length is measured needs to be clarified? If the agreement says 'coaches', then the driver has done nothing wrong. If the agreement says 'metres', then if the train was longer than the agreed length for DOO, then the driver has done nothing wrong. The company appear to be trying to bend agreed rules. If it was the other way around, and a member of staff were trying to bend the rules, would the company be so willing to accommodate?

But the Ts & Cs for Gatwick Express drivers, as linked to on the forum, does not specify length by coaches or metres. It is always possible there is a separate agreement though.

 

[Llanigraham]

Putting something in bold doesn't make it so. How about a copy of the agreement. You can redact anything not pertinent.

Your posts after all are "not official policy..."

The person making the statement works for the Company and does the job, therefore their comments bear far more sway than yours.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wonder if the underlying reason is ASLEF want the Gatwick Express drivers brought up to Thameslink level.

No, the underlying reason is that ASLEF want to protect the jobs of guards. They've been completely clear about this for at least the last two years.

 

[northwichcat]

No, the underlying reason is that ASLEF want to protect the jobs of guards. They've been completely clear about this for at least the last two years.

It's already been said that Gatwick Express did away with guards years ago and ASLEF have agreed to 10 car DOO workings on Gatwick Express (10 car previously being the longest working), so do they now want to employ new guards opposed to keep existing guards in jobs?

 

[Tetchytyke]

But the Ts & Cs for Gatwick Express drivers, as linked to on the forum, does not specify length by coaches or metres. It is always possible there is a separate agreement though.

Has that agreement been superceded since 2012? The agreement also lists which classes of train GatEx drivers are expected to drive, and 387s are (obviously) not listed in that. I'd also mention the limit to how many DOO trains can be passed on an adjacent line in a 60-minute period, given how busy the Brighton Main Line is these days...

It's already been said that Gatwick Express did away with guards years ago and ASLEF have agreed to 10 car DOO workings on Gatwick Express (10 car previously being the longest working), so do they now want to employ new guards opposed to keep existing guards in jobs?

GatEx has changed, with more trains through to Brighton. These were traditionally operated by Southern, which do have guards.

 

[BestWestern]

Note swap from platform staff and slam door DOO to train mounted cameras, in cab monitors, automatic doors with sensing and smaller platform train gaps

"Slam door DOO"...?? Could you tell us what rolling stock that is, it sounds rather interesting?!

 

[northwichcat]

"Slam door DOO"...?? Could you tell us what rolling stock that is, it sounds rather interesting?!

Perhaps it's operated with trains like the 185s where the doors slam on closing despite not being manual doors.

 

[hwl]

Oops I keep forgetting the 442s have automatic doors.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 442s being used at the moment...

Which 442s have (passenger) slam doors?