-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
FGW at Paddington still getting evening Off Peak validity spectacularly wrong.
- Thread starter bnm
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
antharro
Member
- Joined
- 20 Dec 2006
- Messages
- 712
Hahah. I looked at this thread mid-afternoon, saw bnm had posted and thought "ooh, good, an update!". No such luck. 
clagmonster
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 Jun 2005
- Messages
- 2,442
He's probably not been allowed through the ticket barrier yet.
Just got out of BTP custody after things went seriously wrong tonight.
Just kidding.
Well... I went for the 1803 (PAD-PNZ) with my F3 ticket valid as far as Reading. Other tickets for onward travel to Taunton allowing me to dine in the Pullman Restaurant. That avatar isn't just for show, you know.
It'll probably come as no surprise that the ticket didn't work the barrier. Could it be because it was Avantix issued? Who knows. Technical solution that I was told was in place may not be.
I decided this evening, for a bit of variety, to access the platform my train was on from the country end over-bridge. 1803 was the GWR green set and I wanted to phot the front power car.
Gateline staffer on the over-bridge, actually a supervisor who knew me well (normally to be found in the Excess Fares booth), didn't even look at the tickets after I'd proffered them and, with a cheery smile, said, "Restriction code F3." Let through with a cheery greeting and smile in return.
I know. You're all disappointed. Patiently waiting for another tale of woe. Sorry.
Perhaps I should go in disguise next time.
Oh, the Pullman dinner was top notch by the way.
Just kidding.
Well... I went for the 1803 (PAD-PNZ) with my F3 ticket valid as far as Reading. Other tickets for onward travel to Taunton allowing me to dine in the Pullman Restaurant. That avatar isn't just for show, you know.
It'll probably come as no surprise that the ticket didn't work the barrier. Could it be because it was Avantix issued? Who knows. Technical solution that I was told was in place may not be.
I decided this evening, for a bit of variety, to access the platform my train was on from the country end over-bridge. 1803 was the GWR green set and I wanted to phot the front power car.
Gateline staffer on the over-bridge, actually a supervisor who knew me well (normally to be found in the Excess Fares booth), didn't even look at the tickets after I'd proffered them and, with a cheery smile, said, "Restriction code F3." Let through with a cheery greeting and smile in return.
I know. You're all disappointed. Patiently waiting for another tale of woe. Sorry.
Perhaps I should go in disguise next time.
Oh, the Pullman dinner was top notch by the way.
Last edited:
I've known other Avatix-issued tickets to fail in the barriers, we'd need someone to try a 'proper' ticket to confirm.
antharro
Member
- Joined
- 20 Dec 2006
- Messages
- 712
How very disappoint.. I mean, that's good! At least you got through the barriers, albeit with assistance. But I wonder if that was because the member of staff recognized you. It would be interesting to repeat and see if you get the same result with a different member of staff who doesn't know you.
Andrewlong
Member
Couldn't we not simply get rid of F3 as I am sure the number of tickets sold to which this applies cannot be that high. OK the op may have to pay more but they would simply be coming into line with the other travellers who get stung for travelling at peak times!
I think Kevin says it best...
For those using screen readers, the image is of Kevin Hart appearing to be reacting in shock with the words "Oh hell no!" superimposed.
Last edited:
Absolutely not!
It's not just F3, there are many, many Off Peak tickets from outside of London that are valid to depart from Paddington in the evening peak. If they weren't valid then passengers making long distance Off Peak journeys might leave their origin station at an Off Peak time but have to wait in London for the peak to pass. Surely that isn't what you, or anyone else, wants to see.
Of course this has only become an issue because FGW (as then was) introduced evening peak restrictions. Surely the most straightforward way would be to scrap the evening peak restrictions or to properly train staff.
Gerald Fiennes
Member
- Joined
- 7 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 1,031
Have just come across this thread for the first time and what a tale of woe it is.
Just the sort of thing that should not be happening, but obviously does in a number of places across the industry still.
What strikes me as the biggest problem here is the lack of escalation route for customers when things do go wrong. One of the replies referred to rail getting an ombudsman and I agree that this is probably what is now needed. A number of other European railways have this, with the ability to publish their findings and make recommendations on putting things right. Transport Focus can help but they really have been run down too far to do much on these things and ORR is not very effective in this area. It's true that fares breaches are also breaches of the Franchise Agreement, but it would be highly unlikely that DfT will ever do much with TOCs on this. And the option of sueing the TOC or seeking declaratory relief, which I see has been proposed, is a high fee/low result route. So an ombudsman is really needed.
Three observations:
a. GWR top management in my personal experience are actually very committed to improvements so a direct letter to Mark Hopwood would at least draw his attention to this ongoing issue,
b. The UK ticketing system, since privatisation, works on a flow-by-flow basis, with each flow owned by a single TOC and a set of restrictions (in principle) unique to that flow. That allows customising to the specifics of the end-to-end market and in principle permits lower fares for longer distance journeys than shorter distance ones at some times of day. The system could be changed revert back to a 'time restrictions by terminus' system, ie. restrictions apply irrespective of flow, which mostly applied under BRB and which (it is evident here!) many of the gateline staff think still applies. This would probably require some change to the TSA to achieve but it is always open to TOCs to propose this if they think the current arrangement is not working. The level of demand on many routes from London on the peaks suggests that this maybe where they will feel things have to go next.
c. It is also open to the 'owning' TOC to change the restrictions at each fares change. Unless there are regulated fares involved, they can do this without notice/consultation etc., and is always a step that SE could be encouraged to take by GWR. I doubt this could be deemed to be 'collusion' given that the TSA, which governs the fare setting process, is very strong on the need for consultation between TOCs since they are being required to provide through tickets using the services of many operators in 'series' with each other and discussion is needed on fares/restrictions for this. This looks like a situation where the value of the Ashford/Tonbridge/Dartford - Didcot etc. flow has never seemed to be big enough to worry about too much following the large hike in FGW/GWR set first class fares a few years back thus creating what the fares setters will no doubt regard as an 'anomaly' even if many commentators here will blanch at that choice of word!
Just the sort of thing that should not be happening, but obviously does in a number of places across the industry still.What strikes me as the biggest problem here is the lack of escalation route for customers when things do go wrong. One of the replies referred to rail getting an ombudsman and I agree that this is probably what is now needed. A number of other European railways have this, with the ability to publish their findings and make recommendations on putting things right. Transport Focus can help but they really have been run down too far to do much on these things and ORR is not very effective in this area. It's true that fares breaches are also breaches of the Franchise Agreement, but it would be highly unlikely that DfT will ever do much with TOCs on this. And the option of sueing the TOC or seeking declaratory relief, which I see has been proposed, is a high fee/low result route. So an ombudsman is really needed.
Three observations:
a. GWR top management in my personal experience are actually very committed to improvements so a direct letter to Mark Hopwood would at least draw his attention to this ongoing issue,
b. The UK ticketing system, since privatisation, works on a flow-by-flow basis, with each flow owned by a single TOC and a set of restrictions (in principle) unique to that flow. That allows customising to the specifics of the end-to-end market and in principle permits lower fares for longer distance journeys than shorter distance ones at some times of day. The system could be changed revert back to a 'time restrictions by terminus' system, ie. restrictions apply irrespective of flow, which mostly applied under BRB and which (it is evident here!) many of the gateline staff think still applies. This would probably require some change to the TSA to achieve but it is always open to TOCs to propose this if they think the current arrangement is not working. The level of demand on many routes from London on the peaks suggests that this maybe where they will feel things have to go next.
c. It is also open to the 'owning' TOC to change the restrictions at each fares change. Unless there are regulated fares involved, they can do this without notice/consultation etc., and is always a step that SE could be encouraged to take by GWR. I doubt this could be deemed to be 'collusion' given that the TSA, which governs the fare setting process, is very strong on the need for consultation between TOCs since they are being required to provide through tickets using the services of many operators in 'series' with each other and discussion is needed on fares/restrictions for this. This looks like a situation where the value of the Ashford/Tonbridge/Dartford - Didcot etc. flow has never seemed to be big enough to worry about too much following the large hike in FGW/GWR set first class fares a few years back thus creating what the fares setters will no doubt regard as an 'anomaly' even if many commentators here will blanch at that choice of word!
True, and Paddington is among the worst.Have just come across this thread for the first time and what a tale of woe it is.
I have witnessed gateline/renue staff make a false allegation that a passenger (a forum member) had a gun, over a ticketing dispute.
There are also some great staff at Paddington, some of whom have contacted me via PM to express concern as to what has gone on there.
This sort of thing is much more likely in the London & Southeast area.
Indeed. Managers are often clueless, and as for London Travelwatch/Passenger Focus... they should be backing us up, but they often don't!
Absolutely! However I suspect the DfT will be opposed to this. Certain TOCs certainly would!
Indeed. ORR don't care.
Absolutely true.
Hit the nail on the head.
This has already been done. The problem aint gonna go away!
Sorry but I would absolutely oppose this every step of the way.
GWR should not be interfering in flows by other operators, and certain train companies create anomalies by making tickets more restrictive than they were under BR, and then throwing a wobbler when people use tickets that were historically always valid! Utterly ridiculous behaviour by some train companies, and passengers should not be penalised by that.
nanstallon
Member
- Joined
- 18 Dec 2015
- Messages
- 1,063
I blame the Byzantine system of various restrictions; if the staff can't understand them they need to be simplified for everyone's sake. Railway staff do tend to close ranks and still have the mentality that the customer is always wrong. In my job as a solicitor it was the reverse - partners did not back me up and were more intent on brown nosing the client, however unreasonable; doesn't do much for morale!
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2010
- Messages
- 24,470
Be careful what you wish for. You may not like the result of another "simplification" exercise.
NSEFAN
Established Member
Railway ticketing complexity isn't really the issue, unless you expect staff to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of all the fares (which wouldn't be fair!). Most tickets are very straightforward, but it only takes a moment to look up on a computer/tablet a more unusual ticket, so there's no excuse for problems like the one at Paddington these days.
The restrictions are easy. Especially now when the ticket says "see nationalrail.co.uk/3F" for details.
The problem is staff refuse to look at the restrictions. It's not just Paddington either.
The answer at this point isn't training, it's p45s.
The problem is staff refuse to look at the restrictions. It's not just Paddington either.
The answer at this point isn't training, it's p45s.
Problem is, according to GWR, P45s can only be issued between 1315 and 1420 on a Bank Holiday.
Andrewlong
Member
Nope sorry don't agree. Scrapping peak restrictions would simply make busy trains even more crowded and bring a reduction in revenue to GWR. If F3 was scrapped, wouldn't the only problem be about hanging about until first off-peak leaves which is 1915 or simply paying for a peak ticket. This really is a first world problem.
You realise that this means for origins further west and destinations further afield, this would mean not arriving back at your origin station until closer to 8pm? 9pm? 10pm?
This is particularly problematic if you have a bus or a connecting train to catch. I don't know about you, but in my suburban town not far from London, the last bus leaves at 19:00, and taxi fares rise significantly after 8pm.
All this would serve to do is penalise passengers who rely on public transport to get to/from their origin station, and ultimately, drive custom away from the railway towards driving (where - double bonus - you are considerably less likely to be harassed by clueless staff making up rules on the spot.)
Last edited:
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I use tickets that are "off peak" only, but can catch the train to Hereford because my ticket is valid for journey beyond Malvern.
I also have been told a similar thing at Euston when my destination is Caersws.
I think you mis-understand. How many Off Peak restriction codes do you want scrapped? It isn't only F3 that would need to be changed. Let's consider a few examples:
Dover Priory to Reading departing at 1452 arriving at 1749. I'm clearly departing Dover at an Off Peak time but as I leave Paddington after 1700 would I require an Anytime ticket? Or would I be required to wait at Paddington for a couple of hours until after 1900 making my journey over 5 hours?
Long Buckby to Didcot. The last Off Peak departure from Long Buckby on which you could complete the journey before the evening restrictions applied from Paddington would be at 1321 (arrive Didcot 1611).
Edinburgh to Slough. I catch the 1130 from Edinburgh to Kings Cross, arriving at 1551. I arrive at Paddington after 1600 so realise my Off Peak ticket isn't valid. Are you really suggesting I need an Anytime ticket to leave Edinburgh at 1130?
There's no simple solution to this. It was far simpler when there were only morning restrictions but the greedy TOCs introduced evening restrictions complicating things. In my experience trains departing Paddington at 1700 are less busy than those departing between 1900 and 1930!
Last edited:
Cursory glance at the ticket, a look at me, a spark of recognition, and gate opened. Nothing said apart from "thanks" from me.
I get the feeling I may now be a 'face' at Paddington!
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 24,840
That suggests, in all likelihood, that the problem was with the coding on the mag stripe rather than any programming of the barriers. Overall, I don't think your chances of having these tickets accepted by the gateline are very good as I am not convinced it is possible to programme the exceptions created by the F3 (and other) restriction code within the limitations available. This is one of the consequences of using very old technology reliant on a very limited range of data.
SickyNicky
Verified Rep - FastJP
Surely the barriers could have been programmed to know it was a bank holiday, though, so peak restrictions wouldn't apply.
- Status