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TPE franchise awarded to First

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darloscott

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The best way is to organise services effectively with enough frequency and capacity to deal with short distance peak flows alongside longer distance passengers. Whether that's lengthening longer distance runs or boosting the frequency of local services to take some of the load.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It is rare though because the TM's can charge them to the next stopping place and charge them rather a lot for it, if it is Stoke or Crewe for example. No doubt someone with the knowledge will know better but if you take the risk you've got to pay the price. I'd guess the same thing will happen with Bolton set down/pick ups only.

The conductor can attempt to charge them as you say. If the passenger refuses, it is not entirely clear as to what the sanction would actually be.

"But, Your Honour, I travelled from Manchester to Bolton using an Anytime ticket from Manchester to Bolton" would I suspect carry some weight.

But to most passengers the threat and the absence from the PIS is quite sufficient to achieve the required objective, which is simply of keeping short distance passengers off a long distance train. If the odd one or two passengers are missed, the effect is not substantial.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The best way is to organise services effectively with enough frequency and capacity to deal with short distance peak flows alongside longer distance passengers. Whether that's lengthening longer distance runs or boosting the frequency of local services to take some of the load.

The latter is much more effective in that manner.

In Germany, local passengers are kept off long-distance trains by the charging of a higher fare (which they can pay if they *really* want) and the non-validity of Verbundtarif tickets which most commuters use. In France, they are kept off because reservations are compulsory and that would be a right faff if you were making a local journey, but again if you really want you can reserve.

Yet we in the UK have no real sanction. GWR is the biggest example of this - for a good many services, a 5-car train would be quite adequate were it not for Reading commuters. It is not sensible to run say 8 coaches from Penzance to Paddington just for the benefit of Reading commuters. The logical way to serve Reading is a half-hourly fast 12-car EMU service with high density seating.
 
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mwmbwls

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Yet we in the UK have no real sanction. GWR is the biggest example of this - for a good many services, a 5-car train would be quite adequate were it not for Reading commuters. It is not sensible to run say 8 coaches from Penzance to Paddington just for the benefit of Reading commuters. The logical way to serve Reading is a half-hourly fast 12-car EMU service with high density seating.

That has the makings of a cunning plan ----the cunningest plan since.........:D
 

Senex

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The latter is much more effective in that manner.

In Germany, local passengers are kept off long-distance trains by the charging of a higher fare (which they can pay if they *really* want) and the non-validity of Verbundtarif tickets which most commuters use. In France, they are kept off because reservations are compulsory and that would be a right faff if you were making a local journey, but again if you really want you can reserve.

Yet we in the UK have no real sanction. GWR is the biggest example of this - for a good many services, a 5-car train would be quite adequate were it not for Reading commuters. It is not sensible to run say 8 coaches from Penzance to Paddington just for the benefit of Reading commuters. The logical way to serve Reading is a half-hourly fast 12-car EMU service with high density seating.

Much of the Great Western operation seems to be designed to serve the needs of those Thames Valley commuters rather than anyone else. The high-density HSTs now seem to be used interchangeably with the low-density ones on the real long-distance routes, there are Penzance trains with only a single first-class vehicle -- all apparently so that the government can deliver its "seats for commuters" promise. I think you're so right that the answer on the GW is that separate fast Reading service (though there might be a case to run it out to Swindon).

The German system works very well, passengers understand it, and you rarely see a need for anyone to be excessed during the regular on-board ticket-checks.

But even if we decided to go that way in this country, do we have the track and platform capacity to do it? Could the approaches to Paddington handle two extra fast trains per hour each way (particularly east of Airport Jn) and are there enough platforms? And we're all well aware of the capacity problems in the Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester areas. And we've discussed Trans-Pennine's frequency here often enough. Do we really need 6 trains an hour, or would, say, four fast trains an hour and a proper local service (which might well need infrastructure investment) be a solution that might actually serve all passengers better? How do such questions get discussed, let alone answered, within the structure of today's railway industry?
 

jimm

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Please don't turn this into yet another Reading commuters thread.

I am going to resist the temptation, despite some dubious claims made in this vein in a couple of posts above.
 

Starmill

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Bringing it back to First Group, and attaching my apologies if these have been mentioned elsewhere or I have missed them, two updates from me.

1. Last Saturday there was a trolley on a Manchester Airport - York service! This is great news, at least Saturday catering trials had begun. The guard was slightly surprised we had a host, and it was the host's first ever Saturday shift. He explained it would be the norm from the start of April, so it's pleasing they have something to show from the get-go (unlike the disappointing start to the ICEC franchise).

2. Some modifications to the appearences of 185s has been taking place. They are gaining stickers on the overhead racks that tell you to only put "hand luggage" up there, and stickers above windows which denote seat numbers, as on their 350 stock. From at least some units, First Group branding is being removed from (hopelessly out of date!) route diagrams, and internal doors, which have been given a more purple sticker.
 
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Bletchleyite

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The German system works very well, passengers understand it, and you rarely see a need for anyone to be excessed during the regular on-board ticket-checks.

I have a Polish friend who was amazed (and I don't just mean at the high price of the ticket; he wasn't paying for it) when I told him he could buy an Anytime Day Travelcard at MKC and use any train he liked (the odd "u/s" ones aside) to London and back on that day. In Poland, InterCity type trains are compulsory reservation with your ticket being for one specific train only, and no interavailability, even though they are nationalised.
 

185143

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Bringing it back to First Group, and attaching my apologies if these have been mentioned elsewhere or I have missed them, two updates from me.

1. Last Saturday there was a trolley on a Manchester Airport - York service! This is great news, at least Saturday catering trials had begun. The guard was slightly surprised we had a host, and it was the host's first ever Saturday shift. He explained it would be the norm from the start of April, so it's pleasing they have something to show from the get-go (unlike the disappointing start to the ICEC franchise).

2. Some modifications to the appearences of 185s has been taking place. They are gaining stickers on the overhead racks that tell you to only put "hand luggage" up there, and stickers above windows which denote seat numbers, as on their 350 stock. From at least some units, First Group branding is being removed from (hopelessly out of date!) route diagrams, and internal doors, which have been given a more purple sticker.
However the safety sticker on the unit I was on still had FTPE on it....
 

gimmea50anyday

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As has every unit I have worked this week so far......

Mind, today I have seen two northern 142's and a 158 all debranded....
 

Starmill

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Somehow, I'm not that surprised that the safety stickers haven't all been ripped out...
 

ajdunlop

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Could someone remind me when and why the stopping trains between Stalybridge and Leeds are to be replaced by the Transpennine services stopping at the stations in between? I can't remember if this was for electrification or just so they could introduce the 6th train an hour? I'm sure I have read an explanation before but have forgotten.
 

northwichcat

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Could someone remind me when and why the stopping trains between Stalybridge and Leeds are to be replaced by the Transpennine services stopping at the stations in between? I can't remember if this was for electrification or just so they could introduce the 6th train an hour? I'm sure I have read an explanation before but have forgotten.

It's December 2017 (previously December 2016.) It was always the plan to introduce the semi-fasts pre-electrification and then to evaluate whether a stopper is required alongside the semi-fast when electrification is completed and it would be possible to run an additional service due to the faster acceleration of EMUs.
 
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glbotu

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Much of the Great Western operation seems to be designed to serve the needs of those Thames Valley commuters rather than anyone else. The high-density HSTs now seem to be used interchangeably with the low-density ones on the real long-distance routes, there are Penzance trains with only a single first-class vehicle -- all apparently so that the government can deliver its "seats for commuters" promise. I think you're so right that the answer on the GW is that separate fast Reading service (though there might be a case to run it out to Swindon).

The German system works very well, passengers understand it, and you rarely see a need for anyone to be excessed during the regular on-board ticket-checks.

But even if we decided to go that way in this country, do we have the track and platform capacity to do it? Could the approaches to Paddington handle two extra fast trains per hour each way (particularly east of Airport Jn) and are there enough platforms? And we're all well aware of the capacity problems in the Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester areas. And we've discussed Trans-Pennine's frequency here often enough. Do we really need 6 trains an hour, or would, say, four fast trains an hour and a proper local service (which might well need infrastructure investment) be a solution that might actually serve all passengers better? How do such questions get discussed, let alone answered, within the structure of today's railway industry?

It's a bit to do with lack of infrastructure, but also to do with lack of political will. As the ludicrousness of Thameslink Wimbledon Loop services shows, people value direct services above better services. If we look at the North TP Mainline, the German system would likely see

2 IC trains per hour, Newcastle, (Durham, Darlington)*, York, Leeds, Manchester Vic, Liverpool.

2 RE trains per hour, York, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Manchester (Ordsall Chord Stations), Manchester Airport

2 RB trains per hour, All Stations Huddersfield - Leeds
2 RB trains per hour, All Stations Manchester Vic - Huddersfield.
2 RB trains per hour, All Stations York - Leeds

Hull, Scarborough, Middlesbrough would all be operated as branches of the ECML, with connections at York/Leeds (probably at 2 tph RB each).

That's still 6tph along the main "core" route and could (probably) be flighted as IC - RE - RB each half hour (not that I've made a timetable here or anything, it's largely guesswork).

But, your Hull, Scarborough and Middlesbrough passengers would complain they'd lost their direct service to Manchester and people from Church Fenton would probably complain about their lack of Blackpool trains. The nature of understanding of the railways means that people will value 1tph direct over 2tph with a good connection, regardless of the fact that it's a much worse service.

*I've included Durham and Darlington here, because they generate similar passenger numbers on the ECML and we're talking about not changing infrastructure. I think in a German system, there'd be 4 tracks Northallerton - Newcastle, which would allow for a more frequent RE service from York - Newcastle all stops (Chester-Le-Street, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, Thirsk), probably with Durham and Darlington getting an IC service as well, but not the full thing.
 

Bletchleyite

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The German approach tends not to use 4-tracking but is more likely to use passing loops - you design the infrastructure for the timetable.

This is much less common in the UK, though it does happen on single-track lines. There is also at least one overtake of a slow-line LM over another slow-line LM by looping one at Tring, though it isn't common.

You might also be overstating the RB frequency - these are often as infrequent as 2-hourly.
 
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northwichcat

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2 IC trains per hour, Newcastle, (Durham, Darlington)*, York, Leeds, Manchester Vic, Liverpool.

2 RE trains per hour, York, Leeds, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Stalybridge, Manchester (Ordsall Chord Stations), Manchester Airport

2 RB trains per hour, All Stations Huddersfield - Leeds
2 RB trains per hour, All Stations Manchester Vic - Huddersfield.
2 RB trains per hour, All Stations York - Leeds

I can't see your idea working as there wouldn't be 6 paths available between Stalybridge and Huddersfield if you ran 2 services as all-stops as well as stopping a further 2tph at Stalybridge. (Do you live in Stalybridge or Dewsbury? ;))

2tph between Liverpool and Newcastle was mooted but a small number of people made a fuss about Newcastle losing their direct Airport service. Consequently, that will mean Newcastle will finish up with something like the following departures:
xx:00 Liverpool via Manchester
xx:15 Manchester Airport

Due to York-Liverpool needing to be roughly every 30 minutes and York-Airport also needing to be roughly every 30 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You might also be overstating the RB frequency - these are often as infrequent as 2-hourly.

Direct services sometimes are but usually they are good connections at other times. I recall when I looked at timetables in Bavaria a few years back Augsburg-Fussen was 2 hourly as was Munich-Fussen but connections were available meaning it was possible to get to/from Fussen from both Augsburg and Munich every hour and it wasn't any slower to get an indirect service over a direct service. (The direct service sits at the interchange station for a while to ensure connections are available.)
 
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Bletchleyite

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One of the options in a Taktfahrplan where you have a 2-way split is that you send the direct service in alternating directions with a connection to the other one. This approach is common in Switzerland. And, in the UK it happens as well - the Euston-Brum-Scotland services alternate Edinburgh-Glasgow every 2 hours, as do the Manchester-Scotland TPEs, making it a direct service every 2 hours and a connection in the opposite 2 hours for each origin/destination pair.
 
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glbotu

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I can't see your idea working as there wouldn't be 6 paths available between Stalybridge and Huddersfield if you ran 2 services as all-stops as well as stopping a further 2tph at Stalybridge.

As I said, I didn't particularly think this through from a timetabling perspective. I'd also possibly think that the intermediate stops from Huddersfield and Stalybridge possibly don't actually require 2 tph, but I was just coming up with a vaguely plausible idea for a timetable.

(Do you live in Stalybridge or Dewsbury? ;))

Durham, actually.

2tph between Liverpool and Newcastle was mooted but a small number of people made a fuss about Newcastle losing their direct Airport service.

Which is really the point I was making. That in Britain, people complain about a lack of direct services, even if connecting services result in a better service overall.

Consequently, that will mean Newcastle will finish up with something like the following departures:
xx:00 Liverpool via Manchester
xx:15 Manchester Airport
Due to York-Liverpool needing to be roughly every 30 minutes and York-Airport also needing to be roughly every 30 minutes.

This could get quite annoying from a Newcastle commuter perspective. Currently, you get:

xx:00 (ish) VTEC to KGX (Fast) - Largely ignored by commuters who are usually going to Chester-Le-Street or Durham.
xx:05 (ish) TPE to Liverpool - Horribly Overcrowded
xx:25 (ish) VTEC to KGX - Fine, because it has 9 cars to spread the passenger load onto.
xx:35 (ish) XC to Reading via Doncaster - Fine, because everyone got on the
VTEC (unless it stops at Chester-Le-Street, when it's overcrowed)
xx:40 (ish) XC to Plymouth via Leeds - Fine, because everyone got on the VTEC

While 2 x 5 car trains will probably help with the overcrowding, I would suggest that the more useful service would go before the xx:05, as it gets all the Durham and Chester-Le-Street commuters that have been waiting since xx:40.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Direct services sometimes are but usually they are good connections at other times. I recall when I looked at timetables in Bavaria a few years back Augsburg-Fussen was 2 hourly as was Munich-Fussen but connections were available meaning it was possible to get to/from Fussen from both Augsburg and Munich every hour and it wasn't any slower to get an indirect service over a direct service. (The direct service sits at the interchange station for a while to ensure connections are available.)

I mean, while not all RB services are at 2tph, I was looking at what a sensible frequency for the given services would be, given demand/potential demand. I probably over-did it on Stalybridge - Huddersfield.
 

northwichcat

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xx:00 (ish) VTEC to KGX (Fast) - Largely ignored by commuters who are usually going to Chester-Le-Street or Durham.
xx:05 (ish) TPE to Liverpool - Horribly Overcrowded
xx:25 (ish) VTEC to KGX - Fine, because it has 9 cars to spread the passenger load onto.
xx:35 (ish) XC to Reading via Doncaster - Fine, because everyone got on the
VTEC (unless it stops at Chester-Le-Street, when it's overcrowed)
xx:40 (ish) XC to Plymouth via Leeds - Fine, because everyone got on the VTEC

Obviously the TPE services won't run at the same time as EC or XC services, xx:00 and xx:15 were just examples I thought up without looking at the current times. It could be xx:45 and xx:00 or xx:50 and xx:05. However, whatever it is the departures for Leeds/Manchester won't be nicely spaced out.
 
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BurtonM

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As I said, I didn't particularly think this through from a timetabling perspective. I'd also possibly think that the intermediate stops from Huddersfield and Stalybridge possibly don't actually require 2 tph, but I was just coming up with a vaguely plausible idea for a timetable.

There are certain days/times that 2tph at Mossley, Greenfield etc would be welcomed with open arms, especially at the weekend.

Stalybridge has 4tph in the Manchester direction as it stands, and a reasonable amount of people get on all of those (pax are split between Vic and Picc to further confuse matters).
 

nr758123

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The figures for passenger usage at stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield strongly suggest that two trains per hour is merited. Both TfGM and Metro have acknowledged this. It’s only the lack of capacity (partly as a result of the silly obsession with running more, rather than longer, expresses) which prevents it from happening. If it was anywhere else in Greater Manchester or West Yorkshire with those sorts of passenger numbers then it would already be either implemented or committed.
 

northwichcat

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The figures for passenger usage at stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield strongly suggest that two trains per hour is merited. Both TfGM and Metro have acknowledged this. It’s only the lack of capacity (partly as a result of the silly obsession with running more, rather than longer, expresses) which prevents it from happening. If it was anywhere else in Greater Manchester or West Yorkshire with those sorts of passenger numbers then it would already be either implemented or committed.

TfGM's view is if a station in GM gets 250,000 passengers per annum at a station should mean 2tph to Manchester and 500,000 should mean 4tph to Manchester. However, whether that's practical on all lines is another question. Altrincham doesn't need much growth to get 500,000 heavy rail passengers per annum but would TfGM really want to be backing 4tph to Manchester alongside the Metrolink service?
 

Bletchleyite

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TfGM's view is if a station in GM gets 250,000 passengers per annum at a station should mean 2tph to Manchester and 500,000 should mean 4tph to Manchester. However, whether that's practical on all lines is another question. Altrincham doesn't need much growth to get 500,000 heavy rail passengers per annum but would TfGM really want to be backing 4tph to Manchester alongside the Metrolink service?

Alongside what Metrolink service?
 

BurtonM

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In terms of east Manchester (well, basically Ashton under Lyne) the Metrolink is irrelevant as it's more in competition with the 216 bus route TfGM built the Ashton line down. When the line was finished TfGM told Stagecoach to run less buses!
A lot of people still use the train from Ashton too as it's faster than bus and tram, and may well be cheaper too depending on circumstance. Anyone from further out than Ashton isn't going to get off the train for a bus or tram, either.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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In terms of east Manchester (well, basically Ashton under Lyne) the Metrolink is irrelevant as it's more in competition with the 216 bus route TfGM built the Ashton line down. When the line was finished TfGM told Stagecoach to run less buses!

Did your figures take into account the current time frequency of the Manchester Metrolink East Manchester Line when you made this submission?

What are the annual loadings of Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester trains compared with the annual loadings of the Ashton-under-Lyne to Manchester trams?
 
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Tetchytyke

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Noticed this weekend that some of the 185s are being semi de-branded. The F roundels have gone and TransPennine Express is in a very basic font. Seems strange, given that First have the new franchise.
 

swt_passenger

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Noticed this weekend that some of the 185s are being semi de-branded. The F roundels have gone and TransPennine Express is in a very basic font. Seems strange, given that First have the new franchise.

It's apparently to get rid of the minor "Keolis" aspect of the logo, as the new franchise is 100% First.
 

Bletchleyite

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Noticed this weekend that some of the 185s are being semi de-branded. The F roundels have gone and TransPennine Express is in a very basic font. Seems strange, given that First have the new franchise.

The 185s still have the version of the branding with the Keolis i, don't they? That will need removing.

Or are those the ones that will be going to Northern perhaps?

But I would expect the new brand will not include First(f). "Great Transpennine Railway", anyone? :)
 
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