Hopefully this will go some way towards ensuring that further encroachment on the old track-bed is minimized.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
North Yorkshire Strategic Transport Prospectus
- Thread starter MarkRedon
- Start date
- Status
Hopefully this will go some way towards ensuring that further encroachment on the old track-bed is minimized.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Since this old thread has been bumped and considering deltic08's subsequent revelations about himself, is this a little self-congratulation here?
Last edited:
Doesn't he deserve it? To get any railway recognition out of a road biased County is an achievement. A former County Surveyor was nicknamed Colonel Tarmac.Since this old thread has been bumped and considering deltic08's subsequent revelations about himself, is this a little self-congratulation here?
I was a founder member of the Dean Forest Railway in 1970 and member of the Committee that fought closure of Settle-Carlisle in the 1980s
Harrogate Councillor Don Mackenzie who is also on the NYCC Executive is very Harrogate biased. It is a joke to claim that Leeds-Harrogate-York redualling and electrification will improve East-West connectivity across the County and across the North. It just improves a service to Harrogate from Leeds and York and no more.
Who is going to approve spending £millions on a new line from Leeds to Harrogate to knock off 5 minute on journey time in addition to electrifying the current route for £91m? Harrogate is not that big or that important for that amount of expense. For the same cost, Harrogate-Northallerton could be reinstated. Or perhaps they will. NR spent £81m at Watford Jnc to reduce WCML times by only 90 seconds. Then you wonder why Ripon residents are so angry that £60m isn't being spent between Ripon and Harrogate to reduce journey time by 20 minutes.
The new stations are Leeds/Bradford airport parkway station less than a mile from Horsforth in a very deep cutting and still a mile from the airport, a station near to Junction 48 of the A1M on the Harrogate-York line and a new station on the site of the current Harrogate station.
It is also a joke for Cllr Mackenzie to think that Harrogate needs a Northern and Western relief road costing £millions. 82% of gridlock in Harrogate is self generated from within Harrogate and commuting to Harrogate from the hinterland. 56% of through traffic along the A61 is Ripon-Leeds road users who said they could transfer to rail if the route was reinstated and 48% are Ripon-Harrogate commuters agreed they would use rail, but NYCC would prefer to build a relief road costing twice as much.
More lengthy irrelevant obfuscation, I see. Are you Dr Adrian Morgan or not?
While I had only a vague recollection that the name came up in relation to one of your posts on this forum, a 10 second google reveals that he, like you is an ex-surgeon and Ripon councillor. Possibly coincidence, I admit, it is possible that there are two ex-surgeons with an interest in railways on Ripon Council.
daodao
Established Member
Rebuilding the line from Ripon to Northallerton is pure fantasy land, as is the proposal to rebuild the Beverley-York line, given that there is already a direct train service from Hull to York which is to be improved under the new Northern franchise. In any case, the track bed for both these lines is severely encroached.
However, there might be a business case for a basic railway from Harrogate to the south-eastern outskirts of Ripon (with a station near the race course), but it is likely to be impaired because the station would be some distance from the centre of Ripon. Unfortunately, the track bed beyond is occupied by the A61 bypass.
There would need to be a dynamic passing loop in addition to a basic single track, in order to facilitate a peak half-hourly service as an extension of the Leeds commuter trains that terminate in Harrogate, so as to be competitive with the excellent 36 bus service.
I wouldn't rate the chances of rebuilding even the Harrogate-Ripon line as high, given that it is not in an economically deprived area meriting investment, unlike some recent rail re-openings such as Ebbw Vale.
However, there might be a business case for a basic railway from Harrogate to the south-eastern outskirts of Ripon (with a station near the race course), but it is likely to be impaired because the station would be some distance from the centre of Ripon. Unfortunately, the track bed beyond is occupied by the A61 bypass.
There would need to be a dynamic passing loop in addition to a basic single track, in order to facilitate a peak half-hourly service as an extension of the Leeds commuter trains that terminate in Harrogate, so as to be competitive with the excellent 36 bus service.
I wouldn't rate the chances of rebuilding even the Harrogate-Ripon line as high, given that it is not in an economically deprived area meriting investment, unlike some recent rail re-openings such as Ebbw Vale.
There's more to the North than a few big cities.
The big failure of the past few decades has been the stagnation and lack of investment and relative stagnation of rail beyond the PTE boundaries. Rail North should aspire to solve that, and that should include infrastructure improvement.
The big failure of the past few decades has been the stagnation and lack of investment and relative stagnation of rail beyond the PTE boundaries. Rail North should aspire to solve that, and that should include infrastructure improvement.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Although there is more to it than the cities, only travel into those cities is likely to generate enough passenger volume to justify a railway, and non-city flows will probably only be catered for if they happen to lie on a route into a city.
Todmorden Curve is a scheme that has been completed in a non-PTE area. The Ashington project aims to do the same for an area of the north-east, and Halton Curve, while within the Merseyside boundary I think, mainly benefits Chester. However all of them involve extra services into regional centres - but how many services are there in the North (or anywhere else) that don't?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Have the council stumped up any cash to support, develop or deliver their plans.........
The land upon which the curve is situate is undisputedly in the WYPTE area.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
That may well be the case, but in the original submission for the bid monies, the stated objective was said to be the invigoration of East Lancashire, not any part of the area of the WYPTE.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The only benefit of Todmorden Curve within the PTE areas is that it gives stations between Manchester and Todmorden a more convenient route to East Lancashire. This benefit is rather small since East Lancashire doesn't provide much in the way of jobs. The much larger benefit is to give East Lancashire better access to the main employment centre in Manchester.
The A61 bypass does run along the alignment but the station site is beyond the bypass to the north and is now a housing estate - the main old station building remains converted to housing.
Not strictly true. The 'new' A61 by-pass is further away from the original station site than the 'old' A61.
Half the length of the by-pass encroaches on the old formation but this is not insurmountable as the by-pass is wider than required for a two way road and there is sufficient room to move the by-pass over by the required amount.
What would you do at Littlethorpe ("Railway View"). I am just going by the map on Google Earh and Street View.
On the bypass, where would be the best place for the new station? The roundabout at the east end of Rotary Way looked closest to the centre.
Exactly. A station here is only 8 minutes walk from the Market Place, 7 minutes from the bus station, 10 minutes from the Cathedral and has plenty of room for a 350 space station car park with access to/from the by-pass.
It would also be within 20 minutes walk for 40% of the population and a terminating point for the two City bus routes via the bus station in both directions.
A new police station is being built adjacent to the fire and ambulance stations on Rotary Way so all the emergency services will be nearby. M&S and Aldi are opening stores along Rotary Way within the next two years so the City centre is slowly gravitating towards the by-pass and railway station.
Littlethorpe Crossing is a potential showstopper, but two of the eight houses on the trackbed support reinstatement.
Last edited by a moderator:
quantinghome
Established Member
- Joined
- 1 Jun 2013
- Messages
- 2,913
I've not much to go on than Google maps, but it looks pretty tight where the rail alignment joins the double-roundabout at the southern end. Where would the realigned bypass go? There is warehousing to the west which would be less worse than demolishing the housing to the east.
Also, what would the elevation of the railway be w.r.t. the vertical alignment of the bypass and joining side-roads?
Lower: the railway couldn't be lower than the existing road level due to the canal and the river.
Same level: that would introduce level crossings on the side-roads immediately next to the roundabouts. Presumably there needs to be a reasonable gap between a roundabout and a level crossing to prevent queuing traffic obstructing the main road. That's assuming level crossings are allowed on new infrastructure, which I'm not sure is the case. Alternatively, the side-roads could be stopped up, but I guess that wouldn't be very popular.
Higher: Either raise the level of the side-roads or the railway itself so one bridges the other. I guess this would have to be the railway, as the approach gradient for the road bridges would require a sizeable gap between the railway and the bypass, which there isn't enough room for. This means the whole railway would need to be on an embankment where it runs next to the bypass, with a number of underbridges constructed for the side roads.
Also, where and how would the railway cross the A61?
I can't help feeling it would be much easier to terminate the line before the bypass is reached and have the station there.
I wonder if a central Ripon option would be better threading the railway nearer the racecourse site then swinging back into Ripon near Rotary Way but I don't expect it to provide a substantial business case improvement over a station on theeast side of the bypass on the existing track bed.
Some might argue that the A61 road could do with being a D2 at points around Ripon due to the poor overtaking opportunities between Harrogate and the A1.
Some might argue that the A61 road could do with being a D2 at points around Ripon due to the poor overtaking opportunities between Harrogate and the A1.
Aldi are round the corner on Stonebridgegate and M&S do not (yet) have planning consent - nor probably do they know whether the store can actually be built without splitting into two due to the dodgy ground conditions that affect land in that part of Ripon.
I thought that too. If the station was just south of those roundabouts, one would need a shuttle bus to go into town, but one would assume that in this day and age, that would be a given, as part of the plan. Also, the really large estates at Quarry Moor would not, counter-intuitively, have to go backwards to get to the station. One would hope that numerous cycleways would also be built into the sustainable access plan. It's noticeable they were not considered when the bypass was built.
Still, perhaps two stations could be justified. I expect Deltic08 has the answers,as he has spent years on the issue.
One option that could be considered for a terminating line at Ripon would be cross over the bypass and thread a route through the tin sheds of the industrial units / car showrooms (with some relocations) to a terminus close to the canal basin
daodao
Established Member
Rail is not generally appropriate as a major strategy option for rural areas, given the scattered low density population. As the great Dr Beeching recommended, passenger rail should be focussed on high volume intercity transport and urban/suburban routes around major conurbations to reduce road congestion, accepting that the latter may require some subsidy. Freight should be focussed on bulk loads, but the deindustrialisation of Great Britain means that these are rapidly declining. For example, what is the future for the Marches lines (Newport-Crewe and Wrexham-Bidston) once steel-making ceases in the UK and there are no freight trains from Port Talbot?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
When running on passenger lines freight pays (in theory at least) only its marginal cost, that is the additional costs that wouldn't be incurred if only the passenger service ran. Therefore, if the freight ceased to run, there would be little change to the economics of those routes.
As well as this factor, Newport-Crewe carries various regional express and local services and there would no doubt be a major outcry if closure was proposed. Wrexham-Bidston is of more local interest, but in recent years the local authorities have been looking for ways to develop the service rather than running it down. There is a major employment area north of Shotton and with a relocated station and some frequency improvements there would be potential to use the railway to bring workers in from areas north and south.
Last edited:
Your questions are more detailed than studies so far have allowed for. This is for more detailed engineering studies costing hundreds of thousands of pounds
The 2005/6 study only looked at Harrogate-Ripon. As I have previously posted, tram trains were being looked at for Leeds-Harrogate in 2004 and NYCC were being influenced to extend these to Ripon with street running from Ripon by-pass into the city centre.
The Harrogate-Ripon light rail study was well advanced when Government turned down Leeds City Councils application for trams. Leeds-Harrogate tram train conversion was cancelled and Harrogate-Ripon was hurriedly scaled up to heavy rail before publication.
Four station sites were looked at short of Ripon by-pass and one inside and outside the by-pass near to Rotary Way. As at that time there was no intention by NYCC to extend north of Ripon, the Rotary Way sites were not developed. The goal is to reinstate heavy rail through to Northallerton this time.
Before closure, Dallamires Lane, the canal and Boroughbridge Road were all rail over road bridges. This is how it will be when reinstated but an additional 9feet higher as B/bridge Road was raised 9 feet when the by-pass was constructed.
Between B/bridge Road and the River Skell bridge, the by-pass is much wider than necessary for a two-way road and two track railway previously so there is room for a two track railway in this corridor despite being a bit tight.
The houses to the east of the bypass are all park homes except one so is not an insurmountable problem. The embankment slope here could be removed by sheet piling, if necessary, increasing width at the top.
The final decision will be taken by engineers further up the GRIP stages. My job is to get the campaign that far.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What has this to do with North Yorkshire CC transport document?
TheKnightWho
Established Member
What you are saying is false. Freight is not declining, but changing in what it transports. It amazes me that someone could have views taken straight out of the 1960s today!
My thanks to Deltic08, who has dealt with the issues I raised, expertly. He says he hopes to progress the campaign, but expresses this in the singular. I do hope that a 'we' can substitute for the 'I' at some point.
From the points he raised, I can see that for the proponents of the Northallerton extension, it is key that they get a station halfway along the Ripon bypass.
I think I raised this earlier, but is there a case for a southern station (call it a halt if you like) and the main station to be further north?
I regard daodao's responses as bordering on trolling. What has this thread to do with Port Talbot and /or the Welsh Marches? Don't answer that, he'll only be encouraged.
From the points he raised, I can see that for the proponents of the Northallerton extension, it is key that they get a station halfway along the Ripon bypass.
I think I raised this earlier, but is there a case for a southern station (call it a halt if you like) and the main station to be further north?
I regard daodao's responses as bordering on trolling. What has this thread to do with Port Talbot and /or the Welsh Marches? Don't answer that, he'll only be encouraged.
My thanks to Deltic08, who has dealt with the issues I raised, expertly. He says he hopes to progress the campaign, but expresses this in the singular. I do hope that a 'we' can substitute for the 'I' at some point.
From the points he raised, I can see that for the proponents of the Northallerton extension, it is key that they get a station halfway along the Ripon bypass.
I think I raised this earlier, but is there a case for a southern station (call it a halt if you like) and the main station to be further north?
I regard daodao's responses as bordering on trolling. What has this thread to do with Port Talbot and /or the Welsh Marches? Don't answer that, he'll only be encouraged.
Sadly advancing age, death and relocation has reduced 'we' to 'I'. However I have attained a position locally where I have more influence on decision makers than the Group had. The campaign continues with vigour.
Demand forecasting in 2004 determined that only one station is justified north of Harrogate and that is Ripon. Proposed house building in Markington/Burton Leonard/Bishop Monkton villages could justify a station at Wormald Green sometime in the future but only if a stopping service is extended beyond Harrogate to Ripon in addition to Liverpool-Newcastle/Edinburgh TPEx services stopping only at Harrogate and Ripon.
Personally, I would like to see a Parkway station at the former Nidd Bridge station on the Ripley-Knaresborough road creating parking for residents from Nidderdale, Knaresborough (only 8 parking spaces at this station) and Ripon initially until extension to Ripon is completed. This is on Harrogate Council's wish list but with bus transfer from a site closer to the A61. This would become a railhead for Ripley Castle about a mile away that had 62,000 visitors in 2014.
The two additional Leeds-Harrogate services introduced in December 2017 could turnback here, as there is just about time in the timetable, instead of laying over in Harrogate. With the introduction of Kings Cross-Harrogate trains every two hours in 2019, there will be insufficient layover capacity in Harrogate for all these terminating trains.
- Status