Liverpool Lime St - Norwich EMT

[First class]

This topic seemed to be coming up in the Northern 180s thread so thought it was probably worth setting up a new one.

As many people will know EMT have had some major capacity issues on this route, and class 153s have even been seen (recently) working it.

Most will also know how busy these services can get in the peak and on Saturday, particularly in the summer.

222013 recently visited Liverpool, (pictures) and looked quite smart on platform 8.

So what does the future hold for this route? Shortened routes? Improved rolling stock? More delays and cancellations??

What about the class 180? Sure, it's not the most reliable train, but I would rather be broken down on one of these than a 153 :?

 

[P156KWJ]

sure true, 153355 worked the 0838 ex Nottingham-Liverpool Lime Street on Tuesday, and I was later rammed in to a 2 car 158 with no air-con on the 1040 Nottingham-Liverpool. However, I did for once manage to grab a seat on this train. And before anyone decides to have a go, I am not the sort of person who rambles on going "oh this is awful, EMT is awful, I hate trains, they're so bloody expensive", but I do want value for money (as anyone does), and I feel at the moment that I am not. The majority of the time I seem to be going the long way round, instead of getting the 0938 to Sheffield, I'll get the 0934 to Derby and then the 1007 to Sheffield (170 and HST) and the 170 usually has decomissioned 1st class (if ex MML), and of course a HST is very much comfy. And this takes about 10 mins longer, but darn worth it at no extra cost!

 

[CosherB]

A friend and I travelled to Chesterfield from Wilmslow last Friday for the Barrow Hill event. Fridays are busy anyway, but this was the start of the bank holiday weekend. Our EMT train between Stockport and Chesterfield and back was a 2-coach class 158! Both trains were packed, with hardly any standing room, never mind seats available!

This company (EMT) really must have no thoughts of customer service at all to put on a 2-coach train on such a busy day!

 

[The Planner]

EMT only requested clearance for the 222s, 180s have never been mentioned. Either would do the job as it would make it easier to path them down the ECML at 125.

 

[Donny Dave]

This company (EMT) really must have no thoughts of customer service at all to put on a 2-coach train on such a busy day!

Don't blame EMT here. They have repeatedly requested that the DfT allocate them more 158s so they can run Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich as 4 coach trains, but surprisingly the DafT keep refusing. EMT do want each service along that route to be a pair of 158s, but if they can't get the stock, then they can't run the longer trains.

Another thing, bolting on a 153 or 156 between Nottingham and Liverpool isn't really possible, as that limits the formation to 75mph, so it would lose too much time, then lose it's path from Sheffield.

 

[P156KWJ]

you'd be suprised how well a 156 keeps up on the ECML, they have fairly good waiting times at Grantham, Nottingham and Sheffield

 

[me123]

This company (EMT) really must have no thoughts of customer service at all to put on a 2-coach train on such a busy day!

Better to have a 2 coach train than just to cancel the service altogether and cram all the passengers onto the next train that comes along...

 

[jacknottm]

you'd be suprised how well a 156 keeps up on the ECML, they have fairly good waiting times at Grantham, Nottingham and Sheffield

9 Times out of 10 they are routed slow line between grantham and peterborough which last time I went up at least was either 70-75mph max

Jack

 

[P156KWJ]

Don't blame EMT here. They have repeatedly requested that the DfT allocate them more 158s so they can run Liverpool - Nottingham/Norwich as 4 coach trains, but surprisingly the DafT keep refusing. EMT do want each service along that route to be a pair of 158s, but if they can't get the stock, then they can't run the longer trains.

Another thing, bolting on a 153 or 156 between Nottingham and Liverpool isn't really possible, as that limits the formation to 75mph, so it would lose too much time, then lose it's path from Sheffield.

Also, when 153355 worked a service, it was ex Nottingham to Liverpool, so missed out the ECML anyway. Although ironically, the 153 certainly wins over many 158s for comfort (ex FGW ones in particular) against ex TPX 158s.

 

[CosherB]

Better to have a 2 coach train than just to cancel the service altogether and cram all the passengers onto the next train that comes along...

Errrr, yes. But what's your point? Better to have a 2-coach train than be poked in the eye with a pointy stick.

What should be provided is a train with the capacity for the potential passenger load.

And why would the DfT hold back stock that a TOC wants in order to provide the service it should be providing? What's in it for the DfT to do that? Is the stock available? Is EMT willing to pay to lease it? If the answer to those 2 questions is 'yes', then what's the problem?

CS

 

[djw1981]

Sigh....

Most ROSCo's want to know that come the end of teh current franchise, someone will want to lease the trains that they have spent a few million on. DfT have taken to busybodying in the industry and guaranteeing that stock will be used for the next 20/30 years. Thus ROSCO build this into their risk model.

Stock which will only be guaranteed to be used for the next 10 years will cost twice as much to lease as stock with a guaranteed servcie life of 20 years...simple economics.

 

[me123]

Errrr, yes. But what's your point? Better to have a 2-coach train than be poked in the eye with a pointy stick.

What should be provided is a train with the capacity for the potential passenger load.

Yes, but I am aware that EMT have capacity problems on the route, and sadly they don't have the spare rolling stock that other TOCs (eg, First Scotrail) do. A 2 car train was probably all they could manage and, given what I've seen about the EMT issues, isn't entirely their fault. However, I do hope some new capacity becomes available on the route: it's one of the routes that I'd personally like to see more stock for.

 

[87015]

Sigh....

Most ROSCo's want to know that come the end of teh current franchise, someone will want to lease the trains that they have spent a few million on. DfT have taken to busybodying in the industry and guaranteeing that stock will be used for the next 20/30 years. Thus ROSCO build this into their risk model.

Stock which will only be guaranteed to be used for the next 10 years will cost twice as much to lease as stock with a guaranteed servcie life of 20 years...simple economics.

Sigh.....

And if the TOC head companies wanted to improve the conditions for passengers on their trains there is nothing to stop them taking the financial hit...

 

[P156KWJ]

this is one of the major downers of privatisation

 

[djw1981]

Cost of new trains (of existing design is around £1.5m per carriage), with lead time from order of 18months minimum.

On a 7yr franchise (and many are shorter) you are thus looking at a maximum 5.5yrs service under the franchise. At a cost for 18 carriages of £27million, the franchise would have to pay back £5million per year.

That is a large financial hit, and there is no guarantee that the franchisee would regain the franchise. Thus possibly leaving them with 18 carriages which they may not be able to use (depending on their other UK rail franchises at that point), and if sold could make a loss.

Thus financially it makes little sense. FGW have tried this to a limited extent with cl43 PC's, but FGW are well aware that should ABC win the GW franchise, then NXEC, AXC or a ROSCO would be interested in leasing the PC's.

 

[me123]

this is one of the major downers of privatisation

I fully agree. I've always said that longer franchises (20-30 years) would allow for greater investment, and allow Privitisation to work for the railways.

 

[87015]

Cost of new trains (of existing design is around £1.5m per carriage), with lead time from order of 18months minimum.

On a 7yr franchise (and many are shorter) you are thus looking at a maximum 5.5yrs service under the franchise. At a cost for 18 carriages of £27million, the franchise would have to pay back £5million per year.

That is a large financial hit, and there is no guarantee that the franchisee would regain the franchise. Thus possibly leaving them with 18 carriages which they may not be able to use (depending on their other UK rail franchises at that point), and if sold could make a loss.

Thus financially it makes little sense. FGW have tried this to a limited extent with cl43 PC's, but FGW are well aware that should ABC win the GW franchise, then NXEC, AXC or a ROSCO would be interested in leasing the PC's.

£5m pounds a year isn't really going to bankrupt Stagecoach (net profit £162m in 2007 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6244614.stm) and I think the PR and goodwill it would generate, seeing as how they are able to spin out jibber when they get new trains someone else pays for, would be massive.

Cargo-D and WSMR have brough up MkII/MkIII stock outright, bet even including refurbs, crews and loco leasing etc doesn't add up to £5m pounds a year....

Yes financially it doesn't make sense for them not to milk every last penny at the expense of passengers, doesn't make it right though :?

 

[Waverley125]

Last 2 times I travelled it was a 4 car set (2 158s) Nottingham-Warrington (where i alighted/boarded). However, this was after forcing all passengers to change at Nottingham on both the outward and return legs, which was a major inconvenience to those of us with large cases. Meridians would be very welcome on the route, and the 158s being used, while worn, are comfortable and fast. With regards the Peterborough-Grantham slow line, it's very slow (takes 32 mins compared to 14 on the fast line). Both EMT & HT trains are restricted to the slow line, which is unfair as the Pioneers are rated for 110, and are on the fast lines through peterborough but stop at Grantham.

 

[CosherB]

I can see the problem with new-build trains (lead times, funding for the build), but are we saying that the ROSCOs don't have stock right now that EMT could lease? If they do, why aren't EMT leasing it?

CS

 

[First class]

I still think this line is probably likely to be left to rot by the DfT. TPE would be better running this route with their 185s. Even if it split to Nottingham and EMT ran 158s to Norwich.

The 180s were off lease, and the ROSCO wanted people to lease them. EMT could have used them for a year or so??

DfT simply do not like Liverpool in my opinion. Most of the money goes to nearby Manchester. I think the DfT think that the local, and best performing PTE/PTA Merseytravel will fund everything.

My picture also shows the 222 that came to Liverpool during an evening peak. If they are so short of rolling stock, how was this available to run empty, there and back?

 

[Waverley125]

You're right about the DfT leaving it to rot. It's a heavily used line and needs to be treated as such. Of a morning, it's full at peterborough an calls all stops to Nottingham (where the Nottingham commuters get out and the Sheffield/Manchester commuters get in). Same thing happens building up to sheffield, then again at Stockport (as it doesn't call in the hope Valley). Needs to have regular 4-car train in use, even if it is just 2 158s.

 

[P156KWJ]

hopefully as the refurbs are taking place, when the 3 158s or so that are OOS will be back in full service, releasing some units. Currently you often see 3x 156s running to Boston / Skegness with about 5 people on the train there and back (well, September evening, what do you expect), and they could be in a 156 or even a 153, releasing the units for this work

 

[First class]

hopefully as the refurbs are taking place, when the 3 158s or so that are OOS will be back in full service, releasing some units. Currently you often see 3x 156s running to Boston / Skegness with about 5 people on the train there and back (well, September evening, what do you expect), and they could be in a 156 or even a 153, releasing the units for this work

I can bet that nothing will improve, even with stock available. This route should be operated by, at the very least, a 3-car 158, but most got split up to 2-car. I am just really dissapointed that 222s wont be coming to Liverpool, instead being used on the new Corby/Melton service. No doubt they will also be used on the Skegness summer service from London...

 

[P156KWJ]

HSTs will be used on summer skegness trains - don't think 222s are clear for Skeg, but all the 3 car units had their centre cars given to Northern

Aah why not do what regional railways did - 47 and 6 mk1s! Had that up until about 1993...

 

[djw1981]

The cl47 and LHCS would be cheaper for Stagecoach to hire, and Norwich Crown point (one) have experience with the cl47 maintenance, whilst in the west Crewe can do it.

 

[P156KWJ]

they could if they really wanted, purchase a couple, as Cotswold Rail are selling two IIRC? And there seems to be a load of stuff like ex GatEx mk2s in Etches Park, which have sat there for years. If they scrapped the 153 / 156 refurb programme (they are decent!), and refurbed these, that would be excellent for express Liverpool-Norwich

 

[CosherB]

I can see the problem with new-build trains (lead times, funding for the build), but are we saying that the ROSCOs don't have stock right now that EMT could lease? If they do, why aren't EMT leasing it?

CS

Can anyone give a straight answer to this straight question? Is there suitable stock available right now from the ROSCOs that EMT could lease to use to strengthen trains on Liverpool - Norwich?

CS

 

[fireincairo]

I got a 158 (I think) from Nottingham - Manchester Piccadilly today.

Supposedly I had a reserved seat but there wasn't any system onboard so everyone started yelling and people to get out of their seats..

The whole train was full with people squating on luggage. Unfortunately the man opposite me at a table seat decided I didn't have legs and kept trying to push mine under my seat. Arse.

Wasn't overly impressed to begin with, and then we sat in Derby station for a good 15 minutes waiting for a signal. When we weren't scheduled to stop. People on the station kept trying to open the doors until some staff came along and told them not to.

Well done EMT!

 

[Mintona]

they could if they really wanted, purchase a couple, as Cotswold Rail are selling two IIRC? And there seems to be a load of stuff like ex GatEx mk2s in Etches Park, which have sat there for years. If they scrapped the 153 / 156 refurb programme (they are decent!), and refurbed these, that would be excellent for express Liverpool-Norwich

Just so you have sommet decent to ride on. Cotswold Rail aren't selling and 47s, and you need more than "a load of stuff" to run a train service. And 153s and 156s are awfully worn now.

 

[bluenoxid]

Can anyone give a straight answer to this straight question? Is there suitable stock available right now from the ROSCOs that EMT could lease to use to strengthen trains on Liverpool - Norwich?

CS

In summary, no

The Adelantes are locked down. There is only a rake of Mk3's that can be found from the stock that has not been ringfenced for NXEC.