Bus operators decide to have additional Bank Holiday

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well clearly there is plenty of demand, certainly in London. People may want to visit relatives and why should those unfortunate enough to be hospitalised on Christmas Day be denied visitors because they can't get there? So there should be some sort of service running and yes I used to be a bus driver and yes I would have been prepared to work Christmas Day.

The issue for many is fine having a skeleton service and then having volunteers. However, remember when Sunday trading was first introduced - lots of it being just volunteers and premium pay rates. Fast forward 25 years and it's standard rate and contractual obligation. As the son of a driver, I wouldn't have wanted to lose my father to work on Christmas Day.

I do sympathise with anyone who has friends and relatives in hospital on Christmas Day but I don't think that means we have to enshrine public transport access as some defined human right. Where does it all end....a right to go to the cinema? Or to the shops? As long as we get the volunteers....or people coerced or pressured into volunteering.

For the most part, the demand is not there and unless the age of austerity has suddenly lifted, most places would probably have insufficient demand for commercial operation nor funds to finance a supported operation.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Not quite correct, though I know what you mean.

NCT are still running many services until their final night departures at 03.15 on New Year's Day.

Yes sorry no daytime services (Trent are also running into the early hours). Trent certainly ran during the daytime on New Years Day 2015.

 

[BestWestern]

Well clearly there is plenty of demand, certainly in London. People may want to visit relatives and why should those unfortunate enough to be hospitalised on Christmas Day be denied visitors because they can't get there? So there should be some sort of service running and yes I used to be a bus driver and yes I would have been prepared to work Christmas Day.

The issue is the staffing. How many drivers would volunteer? A timetable has to be published in advance, and an operator can penalised for failing to run it. Quite rightly, nobody can be compelled to work and so what happens if there are insufficient volunteers? It isn't just drivers, you also need some form of managerial or supervisory staff, control staff, maintenance staff, the vehicles need to be taken care of before and after the day's service, etc. All of those people will be on significantly enhanced rates of pay, and of course a fair chunk of your passengers will likely be on the inevitable concessionary passes - so whilst a driver might be on double time or more, unless the Council have tendered for the service (extremely unlikely), a passenger will be travelling at the standard rate of reimbursement, which is already considered barely adequate on a normal day in many areas.

Frankly, it is a needless luxury for which there is generally insufficient demand to offset the costs. Again; if you really must travel on Christmas Day, use a taxi!

 

[Antman]

The issue is the staffing. How many drivers would volunteer? A timetable has to be published in advance, and an operator can penalised for failing to run it. Quite rightly, nobody can be compelled to work and so what happens if there are insufficient volunteers? It isn't just drivers, you also need some form of managerial or supervisory staff, control staff, maintenance staff, the vehicles need to be taken care of before and after the day's service, etc. All of those people will be on significantly enhanced rates of pay, and of course a fair chunk of your passengers will likely be on the inevitable concessionary passes - so whilst a driver might be on double time or more, unless the Council have tendered for the service (extremely unlikely), a passenger will be travelling at the standard rate of reimbursement, which is already considered barely adequate on a normal day in many areas.

Frankly, it is a needless luxury for which there is generally insufficient demand to offset the costs. Again; if you really must travel on Christmas Day, use a taxi!

If there are not enough volunteers (although I suspect there would be) then it would have to be compulsory and it's hardly a needless luxury.

 

[BestWestern]

If there are not enough volunteers (although I suspect there would be) then it would have to be compulsory and it's hardly a needless luxury.

Do tell us how you intend to 'make' it compulsory for people to do something they are not contracted to do?! Even if it were seriously considered, bus drivers are a fluid bunch; job satisfaction and morale are generally minimal, employers' respect for their staff is on similar lines, and even during the rest of the year staff turnover is stratospheric - force Christmas and many would either jack it in altogether or just go on the sick over the festive period (and probably keep it up until New Year, too).

I'm afraid we continue to disagree - it really isn't an essential. December 25th is the single, solitary day of the year that everything closes. Just one day. With the exception of those in truly essential roles (emergency services, armed forces, hospital staff), there really is no need for any sizeable number of people to be travelling anywhere. And if you really do have an unavoidable requirement for public transport, it is already available - again, get a taxi :roll:

 

[richw]

When I was single I was quite happy to volunteer Christmas day- it was paid for me at the time 5 x hourly rate plus £100 bonus. (The bonus effectively covered the income tax and national insurance, plus a little extra)

Now I have a wife and children I wouldn't even do it for that much extra.

 

[BestWestern]

When I was single I was quite happy to volunteer Christmas day- it was paid for me at the time 5 x hourly rate plus £100 bonus. (The bonus effectively covered the income tax and national insurance, plus a little extra)

Now I have a wife and children I wouldn't even do it for that much extra.

I assume that wasn't bus driving!?

 

[90019]

Presumably Edinburgh must be a special case, since there are buses running commercially here on Christmas day.

 

[richw]

I assume that wasn't bus driving!?

Restaurant/catering.

I suspect regardless of industry you would find the same willingness though, make it rewarding and those employees without family will jump at the chance.

In fact a single man living alone away from relatives had I not worked I would have been spending the day alone so would probably have worked for normal wage without the massive enhancement.

 

[Darandio]

and it's hardly a needless luxury.

So, you would see it become compulsary because YOU believe christmas is a pointless ritual and YOU claim that you would work it.

I'm alright Jack, eh?

 

[Stan Drews]

Where are drivers being paid £30 an hour?

Stagecoach drivers in Fife get treble time for working on 25/26 Dec and 1/2 Jan, so that would give them well over £30/hr on those days.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

getting back to the original point of this thread... I think there is confusion in how the holidays and service levels are to be treated.

generally speaking the tradition was to operate NO service Xmas day or Boxing day,,, these days being fixed at 25th/26th Dec if either day fell on a weekend day then there is a bank holiday (or 2) involved... the normal practice would be to run a Sunday Service until clear of the bank holidays... then a saturday service or mon-fri service to new years eve... then a sunday service or half saturday service on New Years Day.

Traditionally good operators scheduled extra holidays for the xmas/ new year period knowing they would need less staff... and then produced new rotas to make sure that as many drivers "worked" a full week... ie only being paid for 2 days off.

The big problem is with the current split of services on sundays... with vast areas not even having a sunday service... and even greater swathes are subject to a majority of routes being council contracts.. in these straightened times one of the cut backs has been in how much councils are willing to fund bus services.. a "painless" way to save money is to refuse to fund any sort of service on New Years Day

 

[Antman]

So, you would see it become compulsary because YOU believe christmas is a pointless ritual and YOU claim that you would work it.

I'm alright Jack, eh?

Oh for goodness get off your high horse:roll:

People need to get places on Christmas Day, certainly in the London area, and a skeleton service would be more than justified.

Sounds like your the one with the I'm alright Jack attitude!

 

[BestWestern]

Oh for goodness get off your high horse:roll:

People need to get places on Christmas Day, certainly in the London area, and a skeleton service would be more than justified.

Sounds like your the one with the I'm alright Jack attitude!

Where are all these busloads of people needing to get to, though? And why is 'the London area' so different to everywhere else; they do have Christmas there as well, don't they? Or perhaps it's just a normal day and everybody nips out to Tesco still?

 

[Antman]

Where are all these busloads of people needing to get to, though? And why is 'the London area' so different to everywhere else; they do have Christmas there as well, don't they? Or perhaps it's just a normal day and everybody nips out to Tesco still?

Well there's plenty of traffic on the roads and it's quite common to see family groups laden with presents walking, presumably to visit relatives?

I'm not suggesting London is different, there is probably plenty of demand in other parts of the country.

 

[BestWestern]

Well there's plenty of traffic on the roads and it's quite common to see family groups laden with presents walking, presumably to visit relatives?

I'm not suggesting London is different, there is probably plenty of demand in other parts of the country.

I don't disagree that there are people visiting relatives and so on, and indeed on a normal day probably some of those journeys might well take place on public transport. My point though is that, as you say, these people can manage without, and the volume of those who would use available bus services is highly likely to be insufficient to cover the costs of operation. Thus, as it isn't an essential, the preferred way to proceed is not to run them...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well there's plenty of traffic on the roads and it's quite common to see family groups laden with presents walking, presumably to visit relatives?

I'm not suggesting London is different, there is probably plenty of demand in other parts of the country.

Quite simply put there are very few routes outside of London that would be commercially viable on christmas day (or boxing day come to that) No operator can be compelled to run at a loss.

Your argument really is with the councils who have a legal DUTY to provide socially neccessary journeys....therefore if you feel aggrieved that you have no service on xmas day or any other day of the year then you should be lobbying your local councillors... but they don't have the money to provide services on these days...

 

[Antman]

Quite simply put there are very few routes outside of London that would be commercially viable on christmas day (or boxing day come to that) No operator can be compelled to run at a loss.

Your argument really is with the councils who have a legal DUTY to provide socially neccessary journeys....therefore if you feel aggrieved that you have no service on xmas day or any other day of the year then you should be lobbying your local councillors... but they don't have the money to provide services on these days...

There are a few routes operation commercially on Christmas Day, and Boxing Day. Obviously in many areas a service wouldn't be viable but in major cities there should be some sort of service.

 

[northwichcat]

May Day is descended from a pagan festival but is also revered in socialist and communist circles; I'm sure it will have greater prominence when Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister...................

Strangely May Day is one of the biggest dates in Knutsford Town Council's calendar despite the town being mainly Conservative supporting but also very conservative with a small c so would want to do something because it's always been done.

Isn't the clue in the name - Bank Holidays.

In the past banks being closed meant other businesses were closed. How would a business be able to send someone to pay in the day's takings if the bank was closed?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are a few routes operation commercially on Christmas Day, and Boxing Day. Obviously in many areas a service wouldn't be viable but in major cities there should be some sort of service.

Outside of London, I don't know how many places would be viable without local authority support and in these times, I doubt that would be forthcoming.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There are a few routes operation commercially on Christmas Day, and Boxing Day. Obviously in many areas a service wouldn't be viable but in major cities there should be some sort of service.

But surely the big problem isn't that the big towns and cities have a bus shutdown of 2 days... surely the big problem is that quite often there are 1 or 2 further days run as a sunday service... meaning that vast swathes of the country have NO service for up to FOUR days!

 

[northwichcat]

But surely the big problem isn't that the big towns and cities have a bus shutdown of 2 days... surely the big problem is that quite often there are 1 or 2 further days run as a sunday service... meaning that vast swathes of the country have NO service for up to FOUR days!

Indeed. Like I mentioned in an earlier post in my area there's no bus service to the local hospital when a Sunday or Bank Holiday service operates, yet not too far away in Liverpool they have special free buses over Christmas, with the logic behind them being to make it easy to visit people in hospital over Christmas.

 

[BestWestern]

But surely the big problem isn't that the big towns and cities have a bus shutdown of 2 days... surely the big problem is that quite often there are 1 or 2 further days run as a sunday service... meaning that vast swathes of the country have NO service for up to FOUR days!

Again, that's one for the local authority. If somewhere has zero sunday service it is generally fair to suggest that at least some proportion of the service the rest of the week is likely to be subsidised. A sunday service is provided because the usual weekday passenger flows do not exist, and therefore there is insufficient footfall to justify the operation expense of a full service. In some cases that may well mean no service at all in some areas.

There seems to be a general feeling here that bus operators should exercise some degree of 'social responsibility' and on occasions provide a bus purely as a deed for the public good, rather than as a profitable business activity. Whilst that view is understandable in some respects, we should remember that a bus operator is indeed a business, needs to return a profit, and should never be expected to wilfully lose money. Bus operators are squeezed in every direction, particularly in the past decade or so, and times are hard. Fuel costs, further exacerbated by heavier and heavier vehicles; insurance costs rocketing; the cynical concessionary pass scheme rip off, meaning in some places a bus with a full load for it's entire journey could end up returning pretty much zero profit, and, currently, the Government passing laws which render thousands of perfectly serviceable vehicles 'illegal'. No, it isn't rosy out there, and those long suffering companies can do without the additional strain of putting on a full show over Christmas and likely losing even more money!

I don't know if I mentioned it; but if you need Crimbo public transport, it comes im the form of a taxi...!!

 

[overthewater]

Why is no one complaining about the lack of trains?

 

[northwichcat]

Again, that's one for the local authority. If somewhere has zero sunday service it is generally fair to suggest that at least some proportion of the service the rest of the week is likely to be subsidised.

In Cheshire East that theory doesn't work. There are routes which in the past would have been subsided but are now fully commercial Monday to Saturday. Prior to the services becoming commercial operators would have known what sort of loadings they can expect. However, those routes don't generally see Sunday services presumably because introducing a new Sunday service commercially is a bigger risk as they have no idea what loadings would be like.

In my town on weekdays roughly about half of services are subsided and the other half are commercial. On Sundays there's no services at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is no one complaining about the lack of trains?

There seems to be a thread every year about why there's no trains on Boxing Day but this is the bus forum so it's off topic here. However, trains usually operate on all Bank Holidays except the 25th and 26th December. They also don't operate a reduced service on a Bank Holiday lieu day (except where external factors force them to), Monday 28th December saw a full service on most lines but some lines saw the service suspended due to flooding or engineering works. In the case of lines affected by engineering works a replacement road service is provided.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In Cheshire East that theory doesn't work. There are routes which in the past would have been subsided but are now fully commercial Monday to Saturday. Prior to the services becoming commercial operators would have known what sort of loadings they can expect. However, those routes don't generally see Sunday services presumably because introducing a new Sunday service commercially is a bigger risk as they have no idea what loadings would be like.

In my town on weekdays roughly about half of services are subsided and the other half are commercial. On Sundays there's no services at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There seems to be a thread every year about why there's no trains on Boxing Day but this is the bus forum so it's off topic here. However, trains usually operate on all Bank Holidays except the 25th and 26th December. They also don't operate a reduced service on a Bank Holiday lieu day (except where external factors force them to), Monday 28th December saw a full service on most lines but some lines saw the service suspended due to flooding or engineering works. In the case of lines affected by engineering works a replacement road service is provided.

Sorry but what Teflon and BW say is broadly true.

It is local authorities that have a legal though not a STATUTORY duty to provide socially necessary services. The bus companies are already experiencing the impact of cuts to tenders and ENCTS; the big ones can ride the waves but we're seeing smaller firms get drowned! Firms are already taking on some journeys commercially. Do we realistically expect them to run at a loss on very lightly loaded journeys on bank holidays for some social nicety when it is the local authorities responsibility?

Be thankful for 6 day operation. In Dorset and increasingly in Somerset, Saturday services are now under threat from council cuts. Perhaps your MP might help....but probably not!

 

[northwichcat]

Do we realistically expect them to run at a loss on very lightly loaded journeys on bank holidays for some social nicety when it is the local authorities responsibility?

Without actually trialing a service no-one knows if the service would be loss making or profitable. Like I said earlier in the thread some Bank Holiday services operated by Northern Rail in my area are crowded so a BH doesn't automatically equal low demand.

 

[nottinghamcity]

Yes sorry no daytime services (Trent are also running into the early hours). Trent certainly ran during the daytime on New Years Day 2015.

Yes, I hadn't noticed that they were not running this year. I would have expected a skeleton service in the usual suspects (indigo, skylink, pronto, 3s ...) Obviously couldn't make it work. The city is pretty dead on new years day.
Last year's schedule here: https://web.archive.org/web/20140804150746/https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/home/christmasbuses

The tram is running a modified Sunday service.

The city centre was packed on boxing day, and the buses appeared to be well used.

 

[MedwayValiant]

What is the procedure for bus operators running a non-standard service over Christmas? Do they have to give the Traffic Commissioners the usual 42 days notice of the intention to run (say) a Saturday service but without the evening journeys on 31 December, or not to operate the usual Public Holiday service on Boxing Day?

Or is it custom and practice that operators are not expected to run services on Boxing Day - much as they can if they choose to - and are allowed to go to Saturday schedules on the weekdays between Christmas and New Year?

If the latter, might the Traffic Commissioners consider - in particular - that Brylaine's decision not to operate any services on Sat 2 Jan is a failure to operate in accordance with the registration?

 

[Robertj21a]

and, currently, the Government passing laws which render thousands of perfectly serviceable vehicles 'illegal'.

You've lost me..........what law is the Government currently passing which render thousands of perfectly serviceable vehicles illegal ???

Are you getting confused with the DDA issues affecting single deck buses which take effect from tonight ? - if so that Act was passed 15 years ago !!.