Is the end is nigh for class 442*

[47802]

From what I have read elsewhere they were considered for both TPE and GWR but when the costs and issues were looked at closely they were rejected.

Therefore unless a further use is found in 3rd rail land it is likely they will get binned.

 

[hulabaloo]

Or maybe Victoria to Ashford? Bromley South and Maidstone East are the only busy intermediate stations.

God, yes please - just so I never have to sit in a Networker ever again.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It's a weather thing - Britain is one of the few countries which gets the right sort of weather to make third rail a not completely idiotic option from the outset.

The northern European nations, for example, Sweden, Norway, Germany, north and east France, northern Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and so on, they get significant snow falls each year, have very cold temperatures in winter, so a third rail at track level would be covered in snow and suffer icing problems.

The southern European nations, south France, south Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal, they have the opposite problem - it's very hot during the summer, keeping third rail electrically insulated and permitting significant expansion and contraction of the rail overnight isn't easy, much easier to deal with heat through robust autotensioning on overhead wiring.

Britain slots into a nice little niche, it's not usually so hot in summer than the third rail buckles and falls off the insulator pots, nor is it so cold in winter that thick ice is a major problem, snow certainly isn't a regular issue, so third rail can do its (very poor) job for most of the year without any significant issues.

The more spread out nature of European countries doesn't help the case for third rail either - in Britain, looking at London, Brighton, Gatwick, Bournemouth, Southampton, Dover and so on, lots of towns and cities all very close together, third rail is much much harder to do if you've got 100 miles between town, and not 10 miles.

That's where high voltage AC electrification makes sense - you can feed it pretty much at every point you cross a power line or come into a town/city with an HV supply. The GWEp has only needed two new feeders to be installed - Didcot and Melksham.

Interesting post. Looks like the 442s are off to Eire, Belgium or Holland then!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Is the end is nigh for class 442

No... Please lock thread

 

[RobShipway]

I am hopeful that some use can be found fro the class 442's, as in comparison to say the class 313/315/317 trains they are not that old, other than the running gear being from the 1960's using running gear that has been used in class 73's.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I am hopeful that some use can be found fro the class 442's, as in comparison to say the class 313/315/317 trains they are not that old, other than the running gear being from the 1960's using running gear that has been used in class 73's.

They're almost 30 years old, and any significant sums spent on re-engineering the stock will need them to remain in service through 40 years and possibly toward 50 years - that's the sort of number crunching we're seeing with ScotRail and their refurbished HST sets.

There's already a pretty significant concern at ScotRail that pushing their refurbished HST sets to remain in service through to 2039 and completion of electrification to Inverness is quite possibly asking too much, and that something will need to be done, maybe as early as 2029 when it's intended that electrification will reach Dundee and probably by 2034 when it's intended that electrification reaches Aberdeen.

These units, power cars, coaches, none of them can remain in service indefinitely - bogies will begin to crack (we've been there once with HST already) and structural components will start to fail, electrical and mechanical parts will begin to fail and repairing or replacing them without redesign will be harder, we will see a drop in reliability and lots of hard work needed by depots just to maintain what will be pretty poor casualty figures.

It's easy to say doing something with Class 442 units might save a bit of money, but if it costs you a huge amount of TDA payments to other TOCs, a fortune in delay repay payments to your passengers and it needs your engineering people in on overtime 7 days a week just to ensure you're not short forming sets day in, day out and breaching franchise obligations, you'll be spending more every month than if you had just gone to a ROSCO and ordered up new stock, accepting a hefty lease payment.

 

[contrex]

They're almost 30 years old

Yes, and the REP traction kit is coming up to 50 years old... I remember someone years ago on uk.railway (might have been Mr Catlow) saying the skills and experience to maintain DC motors in particular are beginning to dry up. Not to mention the spares situation.

 

[fowler9]

I was at hassocks today and I saw two bright red class 387 with red seats and Gary doors on trial runs,
I'm guessing this will be the end for the "flying pigs" over the coming months,
I would much prefer to see the continued use of the 442's to free up 377's to see the end of the 313's, but southern has just released the 313,s for £1 per month per train, hahahaha, What's people's thoughts?

It is all sorted. They are to be used as LHCS being pushed and pulled by a fleet of preserved class 50's between Manchester Oxford Road and Lime Street. Apparently they will have to use 37's occasionally.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The 442s have the EE546 motors removed from 4REPs (which were originally introduced for the class 73 electro-diesels). Those motors are 400hp (300KW) each giving 1600hp (1.2MW). The above figures are only true when the 750V is at its nominal value.

Just as an interesting point when DRS load banked a 73 on electric they actually claimed a rating of 2200 horses. Would be interesting to see how much the max available power varies over the rms value.

Not sure if the 73's can draw off both the juice and the on board slug at the same time but i am convinced ad a teen i witnessed a 73 stalling on the bank out of tonbridge T Wells bound and in the progress of getting moving not only cranked up the engine but the shoes were zapping some impressive sparks as it tried to regain traction.

 

[D365]

I am hopeful that some use can be found fro the class 442's, as in comparison to say the class 313/315/317 trains they are not that old, other than the running gear being from the 1960's using running gear that has been used in class 73's.

What does your last sentence 'running gear' mean?

Not sure if the 73's can draw off both the juice and the on board slug at the same time but i am convinced ad a teen i witnessed a 73 stalling on the bank out of tonbridge T Wells bound and in the progress of getting moving not only cranked up the engine but the shoes were zapping some impressive sparks as it tried to regain traction.

AFAIK, the diesel engine uses a separate power controller, so the power sources might not have been interlocked?

 

[deltic08]

They're almost 30 years old, and any significant sums spent on re-engineering the stock will need them to remain in service through 40 years and possibly toward 50 years - that's the sort of number crunching we're seeing with ScotRail and their refurbished HST sets.

There's already a pretty significant concern at ScotRail that pushing their refurbished HST sets to remain in service through to 2039 and completion of electrification to Inverness is quite possibly asking too much, and that something will need to be done, maybe as early as 2029 when it's intended that electrification will reach Dundee and probably by 2034 when it's intended that electrification reaches Aberdeen.

These units, power cars, coaches, none of them can remain in service indefinitely - bogies will begin to crack (we've been there once with HST already) and structural components will start to fail, electrical and mechanical parts will begin to fail and repairing or replacing them without redesign will be harder, we will see a drop in reliability and lots of hard work needed by depots just to maintain what will be pretty poor casualty figures.

It's easy to say doing something with Class 442 units might save a bit of money, but if it costs you a huge amount of TDA payments to other TOCs, a fortune in delay repay payments to your passengers and it needs your engineering people in on overtime 7 days a week just to ensure you're not short forming sets day in, day out and breaching franchise obligations, you'll be spending more every month than if you had just gone to a ROSCO and ordered up new stock, accepting a hefty lease payment.

I was a regular visitor to Wakefield and Eastleigh when Mark2s were being refurbished in the late 1990s for Virgin. They were totally stripped, reskinned, rewired repainted, reupholstered and bogie strip and rebuild until they were as good as when built 20 years earlier for much less than new build. Some are still in traffic and we would be stuck without them now on the loco hauled Fifes and West Cumbrian services 20 years on.

Why can't this be done for 442s? Admittedly it would be better if the power car could be retractioned for AC power with a pantotograph. Speed limit could then be increased to 110 or 115mph. I am sure someone on the 25kv system would like two dozen units of this quality with plug doors.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why can't this be done for 442s? Admittedly it would be better if the power car could be retractioned for AC power with a pantotograph. Speed limit could then be increased to 110 or 115mph. I am sure someone on the 25kv system would like two dozen units of this quality with plug doors.

A pan well probably couldn't be fitted without compromising the crash structure and the motor car might not be able to handle the weight of the transformer needed

 

[dcsprior]

What would the minimum ongoing maintenance spend need to be to keep them available for spot-hire / charter? That way the could be available for things like strengthening services when there's a special event on somewhere in 3rd-rail land.

 

[BestWestern]

What would the minimum ongoing maintenance spend need to be to keep them available for spot-hire / charter? That way the could be available for things like strengthening services when there's a special event on somewhere in 3rd-rail land.

A nice idea; sadly modern day TOCs are disinclined to spend the money on spot hire fees for such things.

 

[RobShipway]

What does your last sentence 'running gear' mean?




AFAIK, the diesel engine uses a separate power controller, so the power sources might not have been interlocked?

Traction motors and electrical control gear which where from class 432 EMU's from the 1960's.

 

[AM9]

I was a regular visitor to Wakefield and Eastleigh when Mark2s were being refurbished in the late 1990s for Virgin. They were totally stripped, reskinned, rewired repainted, reupholstered and bogie strip and rebuild until they were as good as when built 20 years earlier for much less than new build. Some are still in traffic and we would be stuck without them now on the loco hauled Fifes and West Cumbrian services 20 years on.

Why can't this be done for 442s? Admittedly it would be better if the power car could be retractioned for AC power with a pantotograph. Speed limit could then be increased to 110 or 115mph. I am sure someone on the 25kv system would like two dozen units of this quality with plug doors.

The defences put up in this discussion, (and previous discussions about recycling the 442s) reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjEcj8KpuJw

Let's face it, they soon will be ex-trains, (almost) bereft of life, etc..
(I must get out of Monty Python mode)!

 

[306024]

They 'ceased to be' back in post #58

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Mark 3 coaches do not like being cut up and altered - GNER tried with SLEP conversions and found the integrity compromised, more recently, the New Measurement Train's pantograph vehicle took a lot of work to get right (though the engineers did have the Class 321 et al roof plans to look at).

It can all be done, as long as there are no major issues hiding that mandate scrapping of the vehicle(s) but it's a question of cost, and how long you can then keep the vehicles in revenue earning service to recoup that cost.

The other issue which is conveniently forgotten is just past the short termism of the Class 442, a flood of Mark 3 LHCS vehicles will be coming available when Greater Anglia does something about fleet renewal, and Mark 4 LHCS vehicles will be coming available when IEP lands on the ECML. The Mark 4 flood makes Class 442 life extension moot - supplied with matching driving vehicles, fitted with power doors, capable of working in hauled mode with any normal locomotive and in push-pull mode with only a small number of modifications to the DVT for which basic plans already exist, why would you bother with Class 442s ?

 

[306024]

What would the minimum ongoing maintenance spend need to be to keep them available for spot-hire / charter? That way the could be available for things like strengthening services when there's a special event on somewhere in 3rd-rail land.

Unless the 'special event' occurs during the Monday - Friday peak, with a bit of rediagramming 3rd-rail land should have sufficient rolling stock available. Royal Ascot springs to mind, and there may be other examples, but maintaining all the engineering and train crew knowledge for the odd occasion will soon put you out of pocket.

 

[47271]

They're almost 30 years old, and any significant sums spent on re-engineering the stock will need them to remain in service through 40 years and possibly toward 50 years - that's the sort of number crunching we're seeing with ScotRail and their refurbished HST sets.

There's already a pretty significant concern at ScotRail that pushing their refurbished HST sets to remain in service through to 2039 and completion of electrification to Inverness is quite possibly asking too much, and that something will need to be done, maybe as early as 2029 when it's intended that electrification will reach Dundee and probably by 2034 when it's intended that electrification reaches Aberdeen.

These units, power cars, coaches, none of them can remain in service indefinitely - bogies will begin to crack (we've been there once with HST already) and structural components will start to fail, electrical and mechanical parts will begin to fail and repairing or replacing them without redesign will be harder, we will see a drop in reliability and lots of hard work needed by depots just to maintain what will be pretty poor casualty figures.

It's easy to say doing something with Class 442 units might save a bit of money, but if it costs you a huge amount of TDA payments to other TOCs, a fortune in delay repay payments to your passengers and it needs your engineering people in on overtime 7 days a week just to ensure you're not short forming sets day in, day out and breaching franchise obligations, you'll be spending more every month than if you had just gone to a ROSCO and ordered up new stock, accepting a hefty lease payment.

He he, your first three paragraphs started to lead me to believe that you thought the 442s to be a better solution for Scotrail express than the HSTs, oh dearie me, is that one we haven't seen on here yet?!

Seriously, I used to travel on them a lot on the Portsmouth line in the 1990s and I'd go as far as to say that if you got a good one on good track, and away from the motor car bumping around under the buffet, they were as smooth as anything built now. The side corridor First Class compartments were exceptionally quiet and comfortable.

I haven't been on one for a couple of years now but I can't say I enjoyed the last trip to Gatwick very much - hot, cramped and grubby, making clapped out noises, and ages to get off through the end doors.

 

[adc82140]

What classes of loco can haul them in push-pull? I can see that the motor coaches are almost certainly on a one way trip to the baked bean can factory, but is there a future for the other 4 coaches in each unit to replace ageing hauled charter stock for the likes of Riviera?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What classes of loco can haul them in push-pull? I can see that the motor coaches are almost certainly on a one way trip to the baked bean can factory, but is there a future for the other 4 coaches in each unit to replace ageing hauled charter stock for the likes of Riviera?

33/1s and 73s.

EDIT. Well, they can propel them from the rear and be controlled from the 442 cab. Haulage wise you might be able to get away with other locos but as you'd still need to top and tail or use a run-round loop, the only advantage would be the power doors assuming they could be powered from the loco.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The other issue which is conveniently forgotten is just past the short termism of the Class 442, a flood of Mark 3 LHCS vehicles will be coming available when Greater Anglia does something about fleet renewal, and Mark 4 LHCS vehicles will be coming available when IEP lands on the ECML. The Mark 4 flood makes Class 442 life extension moot - supplied with matching driving vehicles, fitted with power doors, capable of working in hauled mode with any normal locomotive and in push-pull mode with only a small number of modifications to the DVT for which basic plans already exist, why would you bother with Class 442s ?

Very good point. So, what's Gillette's new razor called? The Mach 4(42)? Or is that the number of baked beans in a can...

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The added advantage of the 442's is that they are ready imminently. Whereas any availability of GA mk3's or VTEC mk4 and hst are still some 3 to 4 years away. TPE's new services are supposed to be starting in less than a year. Something will be needed and pretty bloomin' soon. There is at least a 2 year lead on new build by the time crew training is also taken into account and fleet needs to be in service before services are introduced and we have already proved there arent enough 185's to cover the existing service.

Granted there arent many more advantages, logistically the engineering side wont be simple....

 

[Emblematic]

Very good point. So, what's Gillette's new razor called? The Mach 4(42)? Or is that the number of baked beans in a can...

Conversely, virtually all of the Mk3 LHCS don't meet the legal requirements for operation beyond 1/1/2020, same with the IC125 sets. So far only the Scotrail sets have any commitment to have the required work done, so it really comes down to whether the Mk4 sets can cover all of the requirements post- 2020 or are more Mk3 conversions needed - and in the latter case, does a de-tractioned 442 work out better financially than a Chiltern or Scotrail-type conversion? Or new stock, although the window for getting that in service by 2019 is closing rapidly.
Put another way, I'm more sure of a Gillette Mk3 or 125-variety beans in the next few years

 

[Philip Phlopp]

The added advantage of the 442's is that they are ready imminently. Whereas any availability of GA mk3's or VTEC mk4 and hst are still some 3 to 4 years away. TPE's new services are supposed to be starting in less than a year. Something will be needed and pretty bloomin' soon. There is at least a 2 year lead on new build by the time crew training is also taken into account and fleet needs to be in service before services are introduced and we have already proved there arent enough 185's to cover the existing service.

Granted there arent many more advantages, logistically the engineering side wont be simple....

But they're not ready imminently, that's the point several of us have been trying to make.

The Class 458/5 project is a good example of the length of time it will take to do anything with the Class 442 units - with the 458/5 project, the contract was signed in January 2012 and the last 458/0 units have only just left SWT, with the last 458/5 units not expected in service until Spring 2016, over 4 years from contract signing.

The full 442 fleet doesn't come out of service for a while yet, so even taking 2 or 3 years into account, full entry into service of a major rebuilt Class 442 could be some time around January 2020. There is genuinely a large amount of work needed to convert these units into a LHCS Mark 3 unit, 2 years doesn't seem unreasonable and any horrors in terms of corrosion, fatigue etc, and 3 or 4 years becomes a reality.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

What is the rollout time for the GatEx 387s, how long is it expected before they completely bump out the 442s?

 

[The Ham]

But they're not ready imminently, that's the point several of us have been trying to make.

The Class 458/5 project is a good example of the length of time it will take to do anything with the Class 442 units - with the 458/5 project, the contract was signed in January 2012 and the last 458/0 units have only just left SWT, with the last 458/5 units not expected in service until Spring 2016, over 4 years from contract signing.

The full 442 fleet doesn't come out of service for a while yet, so even taking 2 or 3 years into account, full entry into service of a major rebuilt Class 442 could be some time around January 2020. There is genuinely a large amount of work needed to convert these units into a LHCS Mark 3 unit, 2 years doesn't seem unreasonable and any horrors in terms of corrosion, fatigue etc, and 3 or 4 years becomes a reality.

The "problem" with comparing the 458/5 project with the 442's is that the former still had elements in service (i.e. the 458/0's) which means that the work has to be done in stages if the 442's are totally out of service then there is nothing stopping work from progressing in terms of needing to be in use.

It also depends on the level of work required. If the 442's are to be loco hauled then that is likely to be quicker than if there are works to enable them to be self powered.

There is also the numbers involved the 458/5's will have something like 180 coaches, whilst the 442's (assuming scrapping of the motor car) would have a maximum of just over half that number of 96 meaning that the total work time could well be significantly less.

Although a Mark 4 coach would require a lot less work!

 

[swt_passenger]

What is the rollout time for the GatEx 387s, how long is it expected before they completely bump out the 442s?

Not that long, by summer 2016 isn't it?. It's probably been mentioned in the 387 thread a few times.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

TPE's new services are supposed to be starting in less than a year. Something will be needed and pretty bloomin' soon. There is at least a 2 year lead on new build...

The much discussed DfT timeline shows that TPE don't actually receive (or need?) any new stock until Dec 2017, in two years. But the stock may have already been ordered, subject to an embargo on announcements, in which case it could well be available with time to spare.

Well informed insiders have already said the 442s are not going to either TPE or GWR, which rules out most predicted uses.

I suggest nobody at all will be using them, and definitely not TPE.

 

[kevconnor]

Not been on this thread in a few days but it does prove one of the immutable truths of any thread on rail forum. As any thread progresses it starts off with the facts, before progressing into some kind of fiction and if it progresses for long enough eventually winds up as science fiction.