Future of Heathrow Express

[NSEFAN]

I would expect that once 2023 arrives we shall see the removal of the fast HeX services to increase capacity on the mains. The trade off would have to be some kind of Crossrail semifast service on the reliefs, perhaps calling only at Ealing Broadway and alternately at Southall/Hayes and Harlington.

 

[bramling]

It's a rather grubby way to say "welcome to Britain", although entirely in keeping with what a visitor will experience for the rest of their trip.

The future of the HEx should be determined by whether it's the best use of capacity on a very busy section of the railway. Personally I'm not prepared to use a service that charges thirty euros to get from Heathrow to Paddington.

Or if you want another "welcome to Britain" experience, one can try the overcrowded, dirty, slow and unreliable Piccadilly Line.

 

[HowardGWR]

Heathrow Express was the result of a typical British compromise between the need to have a fast train out of the airport to somewhere in London. Paddington was probably the cheapest option and was funded on the basis that you could get a decent return by charging rip off prices to people who had been seated in an aluminium tube for anything between 4 and 24 hours. After sitting in cattle class and then undergoing interrogation by the UK Border, they will gladly in their thousands pay extra to get out of the place. Then they are deposited in Paddington! Hopefully Cross Rail will be able to put them out of their misery and actually deposit them in or near where they want to go. Not a slight on Heathrow Express Staff, but just a rant on this country's record on infrastructure decisions and investment post WW2.

Not a rant; a very fair summing up. The Roma Fiumicino train (which is an old rattle trap though), charged at 11 € for the 26kms, is much more reasonable. Why anyone uses the Gatwick Express at £19.99 defeats me. Still, you pay your money and take your choice. Ripping off visitors is a good old British tradition.

In all three cases, even Roma, there are cheaper options.

 

[Taunton]

That is exactly my point. In my opinion these desks are a very cynical ploy to honeytrap the unsuspecting and you're right they do cause bottlenecks into the bargain.

I'm glad it's not just me.

Not only that, there are Express ticket touts INSIDE the secured arrivals area at Heathrow, just after baggage collection, working in a pushy manner which seems to imply they are paid on commission, trying to sell Express tickets and pretending that it is the only public transport option into London. The misleading statements they make when you try to discuss other possible options seem to be standardised (do try and trip them up when you next arrive), so are presumably taught in a training school.

For me the end of the Express cannot come quickly enough, it has been a gross rip-off for the last 20 years. There was a challenge through the Advertising Standards Agency some years ago about them advertising it as a service to Central London when the Paddington terminus is in postal area W2 which is not commonly regarded as "Central", which they narrowly got away with. And the "First Class" which sits with the doors open in winter at Paddington for 15 minutes with the draughts and rain blowing all round your seat is a further joke.

Little known is that Express actually staff the Underground station at the new Terminal 5 as well, LU only do the other terminals. Getting there a while ago, a service suspension on the short Piccadilly Line section to the Central Area had the staff announcing to the confused crowd that they "must" take the Express into London instead - ignoring that the Express service to the Central Area is free and that you could change to the Piccadilly there which were all being diverted round the T4 loop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the "First Class" which sits with the doors open in winter at Paddington for 15 minutes with the draughts and rain blowing all round your seat is a further joke.

Walk over to the doors, press the close button. Hardly rocket science, as it were.

 

[Antman]

Or if you want another "welcome to Britain" experience, one can try the overcrowded, dirty, slow and unreliable Piccadilly Line.

A bit harsh, overcrowded maybe but dirty, slow and unreliable? Not in my experience.
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Hex actually aint even that much quicker for journeys into most of central London granted the speed savings are significant for the Paddington/Edgware road /baker street locations but once you get to Charing cross and locations further east it is actually quicker to get a tube.

Also a 140 bus is quicker for journeys to Hayes and Harlington for most of the day than the Heathrow connect.

And the 350 bus from T5 to Hayes

 

[Tobbes]

I travel through Heathrow 6-12 times a year, and come/to from either Putney or East Anglia.

It's never a brilliant experience, as has been noted; and HEx is an extremely expensive way to reach not-quite-the-West End: CR1 will be much better for most passengers as it offers not just Paddington but also the options across central London.

What I think would be a winning proposition was 4 tph non-stop to Paddington and then all stations to Abbey Wood, which would serve business travellers to the City and Canary Wharf, and would also (slightly) shorten the travel time for East Anglians via either Farringdon or Liverpool Street. Whether the current HEx rolling stock could be made compatible with CR1 (I'm mostly thinking of the door spacing), I don't know.

 

[anme]

Well book online in advance - they have deals for £6.99! Again, no one is forced to use it, and most people do some research on travel options to/from an airport before they travel.

There are clearly plenty of people who are prepared to pay for a fast service with plenty of space, and from my experience they certainly are not all business travellers. I just don't see that changing, particularly at peak times.

I was commenting on the "honeytrap" selling of Heathrow Express tickets in the airport before reaching the station area. I recently asked one of the touts how much it was, and then loudly repeated "21.50! Don't you know it's 3.10 on the underground?", making sure all the nearby tourists could hear.

I wasn't commenting on the fast service in general. I think a fast service is desirable, but as with any other service on our overcrowded railways, it needs to justify itself relative to other possible uses of the capacity.

Just to be clear, the 6.99 pounds tickets are only available if you book 90 (ninety) days in advance.

 

[ac6000cw]

Not so for the bewildered foreigners who arrive at the end of passport control to be greeted by several purple uniforms at the bottom of the escalators carrying Avantix machines. Nobody tells them that there is an alternative!

In this internet age, it's not exactly difficult to find out what the options are for onward transport from the airport. People know that almost anything to, from or at airports is potentially expensive - it's the same the world over (because traditionally air travellers are assumed to be reasonably well off). At least LHR has several frequent public transport options, which isn't always the case at airports.

Personally, if I'm arriving at an airport, I tend to choose the cheap public transport option if it will take me close to where I'm staying (and I have the time to spare), or pay more money for convenience/speed if I need to - that is what having choices is all about. One size doesn't fit all...

 

[berneyarms]

In this internet age, it's not exactly difficult to find out what the options are for onward transport from the airport. People know that almost anything to, from or at airports is potentially expensive - it's the same the world over (because traditionally air travellers are assumed to be reasonably well off). At least LHR has several frequent public transport options, which isn't always the case at airports.

Personally, if I'm arriving at an airport, I tend to choose the cheap public transport option if it will take me close to where I'm staying (and I have the time to spare), or pay more money for convenience/speed if I need to - that is what having choices is all about. One size doesn't fit all...

I would echo the sentiments in this post - most people are reasonably savvy about these things and are able to choose between the options that are available, having done a bit of advance research.

 

[Clip]

Hex actually aint even that much quicker for journeys into most of central London granted the speed savings are significant for the Paddington/Edgware road /baker street locations but once you get to Charing cross and locations further east it is actually quicker to get a tube.

.

Are you sure about this? I tried for charing cross and bank and both times getting HEx was quicker - by at least 20 minutes

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would echo the sentiments in this post - most people are reasonably savvy about these things and are able to choose between the options that are available, having done a bit of advance research.

Even if no advance research was done, these days I'd be getting my phone out and searching while in the passport queue, certainly in Europe where O2's data service is no longer outrageously priced.

 

[anme]

Even if no advance research was done, these days I'd be getting my phone out and searching while in the passport queue, certainly in Europe where O2's data service is no longer outrageously priced.

The variety of transport options is certainly a good thing. However, the easy availability of information does not excuse either HEx's ticket prices or their increasingly questionable sales tactics.
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Are you sure about this? I tried for charing cross and bank and both times getting HEx was quicker - by at least 20 minutes

Depends where you are heading to.

The Piccadilly line is quicker for South Kensington and Victoria areas (based on personal experience, not sure what the journey planners say). This may be partly because it has higher frequency compared to the HEx and the Circle/District lines from Paddington.

For the City, Euston and Kings Cross, HEx will certainly win on speed.

BTW, the bus from Heathrow to Feltham is also a very good option for south and south west London.

 

[matt_world2004]

Are you sure about this? I tried for charing cross and bank and both times getting HEx was quicker - by at least 20 minutes

Leaving at an identical time on both services the tube takes 51 minutes plus a uoto four minute wait time the Heathrow express takes 37 minutes plus a upto 15 minute wait time this is excluding the transfer time between Paddington nr and Paddington LU.

 

[anme]

Leaving at an identical time on both services the tube takes 51 minutes plus a uoto four minute wait time the Heathrow express takes 37 minutes plus a upto 15 minute wait time this is excluding the transfer time between Paddington nr and Paddington LU.

It's the waiting time, and transfer time at Paddington that makes HEx slow for certain journeys. The Circle line runs only every ten minutes from Paddington to South Ken, Victoria, etc. Connections on the Bakerloo line, or on the Circle/H&C towards Euston are more attractive.

This is ignoring the ticket price, of course.

 

[Clip]

Depends where you are heading to.

The Piccadilly line is quicker for South Kensington and Victoria areas (based on personal experience, not sure what the journey planners say). This may be partly because it has higher frequency compared to the HEx and the Circle/District lines from Paddington.

.

That's not the locations that were made on the statement though.

Leaving at an identical time on both services the tube takes 51 minutes plus a uoto four minute wait time the Heathrow express takes 37 minutes plus a upto 15 minute wait time this is excluding the transfer time between Paddington nr and Paddington LU.

All Tfl planners include the 8 minute walking time at Paddington from HEx

 

[matt_world2004]

That's not the locations that were made on the statement though.




All Tfl planners include the 8 minute walking time at Paddington from HEx

Google maps don't .

 

[Clip]

Why would anyone use google maps instead of the TFL website to find out times I will never know. but each to their own

 

[matt_world2004]

Why would anyone use google maps instead of the TFL website to find out times I will never know. but each to their own

Because it is on my mobile phone, and Tfl generally appear to over estimate journey times.Even without the transfer time you are saving an amazing 3-7 minutes on the hex.

 

[Clip]

Because it is on my mobile phone, and Tfl generally appear to over estimate journey times.Even without the transfer time you are saving an amazing 3-7 minutes on the hex.

But you said 20 mins earlier? Do make up your mind... And no waiting time doesn't count as you were talking about journey time.

 

[Wolfie]

HEx track access contract ends in 2023. They will then have to renegotiate, or give up the service, which may well have been rendered redundant by Crossrail anyway, depending on passenger's preferences for onward travel from Paddington.

One proposal is to transfer the paths to Crossrail, and they will then have 10 tph spread over both Heathrow terminal stations. The four paths would possibly become Crossrail skip stop 'semifasts', and/or fast line services in the off-peak, but run on the reliefs in the peaks making the fast line slots available for peak extra LDHS services.

A second possibility is to utilise the four paths for through services from Paddington via the future Western Heathrow access, (WRatH) to four destinations beyond Reading, such as Oxford, or Southampton via Basingstoke.

This is hardly news though, it is well documented and has been discussed in the forums on a number of occasions, sources are in the London and SE RUS and in the Western Route Study.

All of which assumes Heathrow's cooperation on their track from Hayes and Harlington to Heathrow....

 

[matt_world2004]

But you said 20 mins earlier? Do make up your mind... And no waiting time doesn't count as you were talking about journey time.

Please quote where I said 20 minutes

 

[Altnabreac]

I think it's fairly clear that the fast line paths are needed for extra capacity from Reading / Slough and will be run as such from 2023 if not earlier.

There are then two questions:

1. Will the 4tph fast service be Reading - Paddington via West Drayton or via Heathrow using WRATH?
   
2. If via WRATH then will the 4tph service be operated as a standalone HEx franchise/concession or as part of FGW?

My strong expectation would be for the service to operate via WRATH and I personally would run it as part of FGW but can understand why Heathrow Airport may prefer to run it as Heathrow Express.

You would then have a peak service at Heathrow consisting of:

• 10tph Crossrail using Slow lines.
• 4tph WRATH using Fast lines to Paddington.

I suspect all 14tph will call at Old Oak Common.

The 10tph Heathrow Crossrail service in combination with the 6tph Crossrail service to West Drayton / Maidenhead / Reading (2tph each) will then need to provide the following stops in Peak Hours according to current Crossrail plans:

• Hayes & Harlington 10tph
• Southall 10tph
• Hanwell 4tph
• West Ealing 4tph
• Ealing Broadway 10tph
• Acton Mainline 4tph

So broadly 42tph stops at these 6 stations provided by 16tph equates to 2.6 calls per train.

My guess would be for the 4tph from Reading / Maidenhead to provide 2 calls per service and the other 12tph to provide 3 calls per service. That allows you to up the service at West Ealing to 6tph as well.

Old Oak Common will again likely be served by all 16tph (+ potentially 8tph WCML locals).

So Heathrow Express may survive as a brand, and a 4tph fast Heathrow - Paddington (albeit with a stop at Old Oak Common) may survive as a Reading - Paddington service, but it is very unlikely that it will survive it it's current standalone format in 10 years time.

 

[anme]

But you said 20 mins earlier? Do make up your mind... And no waiting time doesn't count as you were talking about journey time.

No, you said HEx was twenty minutes quicker. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2345709&postcount=41

When deciding which mode of transport to use, I certainly include waiting time!

 

[berneyarms]

To the people arguing over which of tube and HEx is faster, it all depends upon where exactly you are going - and people travel to Heathrow from all over London.

Of course there are places where the tube is faster, including parts of central London, but there are plenty of areas for which taking the HEx is a faster option, including some where it is a transfer to the Bakerloo line.

Personally speaking, I tend to use the HEx when returning to Heathrow as it gives me more certainty of when I will arrive there.

 

[Stats]

I think it's fairly clear that the fast line paths are needed for extra capacity from Reading / Slough and will be run as such from 2023

My strong expectation would be for the service to operate via WRATH and I personally would run it as part of FGW but can understand why Heathrow Airport may prefer to run it as Heathrow Express.

You would then have a peak service at Heathrow consisting of:

• 10tph Crossrail using Slow lines.
• 4tph WRATH using Fast lines to Paddington.

So Heathrow Express may survive as a brand, and a 4tph fast Heathrow - Paddington (albeit with a stop at Old Oak Common) may survive as a Reading - Paddington service, but it is very unlikely that it will survive it it's current standalone format in 10 years time.

I would agree that HEX paths would be used for Paddington-Heathrow-Slough-Reading and possibly beyond, but 10tph slow Crossrail service to Heathrow? Where does that come from? Can the Heathrow tunnels handle 14tph?

 

[Taunton]

About half of Crossrail through the core are currently proposed to be turning round at Paddington. Meanwhile the Express are starting there. These are just obviously asking to be joined together. There is however no junction from the Crossrail tunnels into the fast lines, and interleaving some of the trains from a high-frequency core with the long distance ones starting from Paddington would be a capacity sapper.

Meanwhile the western route into Heathrow is also going to be joining the relief lines at Langley, not the main lines, so Heathrow Express are unlikely to want to get involved with that, nor to extend the current Express trains.

My own feeling is that the whole thing will be wrapped together, with a go-ahead for the new runway and a go-ahead for the western rail access, being all rolled in to the ending, possibly before 2023, of the Express contractual arrangement, and merging that into Crossrail. It won't be possible to run this nonstop on the relief lines but the timesaving from not having to change at Paddington to the tube will be a big offset for many. TfL have also long been criticised for Oyster not being available on the Express, and that will doubtless be part of the deal, which I anticipate is being negotiated behind closed doors as we write here. It will be the end of a range of nonsenses, including those foreigners who have just been sold overpriced Express tickets boarding the Connect at Heathrow Central, because it does say Paddington on it.

 

[D1009]

Connections on the Bakerloo line, or on the Circle/H&C towards Euston are more attractive.

I agree in the case of the Bakerloo Line, but actual journey times on the Circle/H&C towards Euston are frequently much greater than the TfL and other journey planners suggest, as they tend to get held at Edgware Road waiting booked time and at Baker Street to fit in between Met services.

 

[jon0844]

When Oyster gets updated, I am sure it will be usable on HEX - just obviously at a higher charge.

You can see how it might work from the way it does on SET with the trains from St Pancras to Stratford International.

It would be great for impulse decisions to take HEX at the last minute, and automatically give Gold Card users like me the discount.

 

[matt_world2004]

When Oyster gets updated, I am sure it will be usable on HEX - just obviously at a higher charge.

You can see how it might work from the way it does on SET with the trains from St Pancras to Stratford International.

It would be great for impulse decisions to take HEX at the last minute, and automatically give Gold Card users like me the discount.

How would it differentiate between Crossrail and Hex fares