Confusion over tickets to station groups e.g. 'Liverpool Stations'

[sheff1]

If I opt for Pontefract Stations on a journey planner, the planner converts it to a request for Monkhill or Baghill.

Yes. Tanshelf is not a 'Pontefract Station' even though is probably the most convenient for the town centre and is most definitely the closest to the racecourse which must surely attract the most visitors to the town.

I've nearly been caught out by "Crewe to Manchester Stations" - does that cover going to Victoria via Salford Crescent? No it doesn't.

Yes it does, as that is the shortest route by rail.

 

[35B]

I genuinely didn't know Vauxhall was in London Terminals. Shows how confusing it all is!

I only found out when Orpington ticket office saw my London Terminals season and told me I didn't need an extension ticket. 3 months or more after I'd started travelling there.

These things are not obvious to many, even enthusiasts. Railway personnel need to remember that, even on this forum.

 

[maniacmartin]

But if Vauxhall is a 'real' London Terminal, (rather than just a normal station) why isn't it shown on that matrix of standard cross-London transfer times in the NRTT?

The stations where you can start and end cross-London transfers is a seperate group to London Terminals (and seperate to the London routeing group). There's a list of allowed stations on a page on NRE.

Consider a journey from Kent to Essex - the DLR from Lewisham to Stratford would be a valid cross-London transfer in some cases, none of which are London Terminals

 

[swt_passenger]

The stations where you can start and end cross-London transfers is a seperate group to London Terminals (and seperate to the London routeing group). There's a list of allowed stations on a page on NRE.

Consider a journey from Kent to Essex - the DLR from Lewisham to Stratford would be a valid cross-London transfer in some cases, none of which are London Terminals

Yes I know, but there is a definite "14 x 14 matrix" of transfer times for the 14 main 'London Terminals' stations, towards the end of the NRTT commercial information section, which you wouldn't expect to include Lewisham and Stratford.

Vauxhall, Old St, City T/L and Waterloo East occupy a special sort of middle ground, a small group of 4 where they are treated as London Terminals for ticketing purposes.

The Cross London interchange stations are a larger group again, 55 in number, including the London Terminals.

On the NRES page you linked to, you'll find the 55 listed, then the 14, then the 4 below them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I only found out when Orpington ticket office saw my London Terminals season and told me I didn't need an extension ticket. 3 months or more after I'd started travelling there.

Out of interest what season ticket do you hold and which way do you travel?

 

[35B]

Out of interest what season ticket do you hold and which way do you travel?

It was a London Terminals annual, usually travelling up the main to Waterloo East - I was too tight to pay for a travelcard. All long ago now, back in 2003.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It was a London Terminals annual, usually travelling up the main to Waterloo East - I was too tight to pay for a travelcard. All long ago now, back in 2003.

Ah, I see. Couldn't think of one that didn't require a Tube transfer, but that'll be it!

 

[34D]

It's a railway station which is within the boundaries of the City of Liverpool.

When dealing with first-time rail users, you have to throw away *all* the railway logic you already know. It's difficult to do that.

This is such a true point. Helpers in 'disputes & prosecutions' ought to note this

 

[yorkie]

I was confused by the terminology a few years ago when I bought a "not underground" season ticket. I thought this just meant I couldn't use the actual ticket on the Underground but could still use the routes if I paid the extra. However, according to the RPI who gave me a PF, it meant I wasn't allowed to use any "valid"routes on NRE that included Underground transfers...

This is a separate matter to the subject in hand. Some RPIs make things up and don't quote actual rules. People have successfully appealed incorrectly issued Penalty Fares for this reason.

 

[island]

The happy medium could be for the railways to acknowledge that on occasion people will make mistakes and simply allow the customer to rectify this at the point of contact with railway staff/ticket barriers etc rather than just issuing penalties, OOC settlements etc as a knee-jerk response to an incorrect ticket. This wouldn't be an insane idea surely?

A person arriving at Manchester Airport with a Manchester Stations ticket has clearly made some effort to purchase the correct ticket as opposed to somebody who has no ticket whatsoever.

But this does not take account of the fact that a substantial minority of passengers will seek to abuse the system and pay only when challenged.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is a separate matter to the subject in hand. Some RPIs make things up and don't quote actual rules. People have successfully appealed incorrectly issued Penalty Fares for this reason.

Quite. "Not Underground" seems quite specific - you can't use the Underground. It doesn't say you can't take a taxi.

"Not London" would be what I'd expect to see if it didn't want you to involve London Terminals.

 

[CheesyChips]

But this does not take account of the fact that a substantial minority of passengers will seek to abuse the system and pay only when challenged.

I entirely agree with you, but in the real world either the TOC or the passenger has to carry the jeopardy of an inherited and imperfect system. There's either sensible leeway in favour of the passenger or the trigger-happy-with-prosecutions TOCs we have today.

...and when billions of pounds of public subsidy is poured into the railways every year, why are the taxpaying passengers taking the hit?

 

[Starmill]

Quite. I'm bugged by the idea that we pay once with our taxes, twice with our (unusually high) fares and thrice when we run the risk of prosecution for doing what most reasonable people would analyse as nothing wrong!

 

[Wallsendmag]

The machines at Newcastle now seem to be listing the staions included in the various groups

 

[steve a]

Out of interest if you actually type in "Moorfields" to the TVM at Hunt's Cross rather than pressing "Liverpool Stations" what destination is actually printed on the ticket - Moorfields or Liverpool Stations?

I had a look at the TVM at Widnes last night. It only allowed you to choose specific stations. The only intermediate ones showing for the CLC line were Hunt's Cross, Hough Green, Warrington and Birchwood. What are you supposed to do if you want to go from Widnes to Padgate? Buy a ticket to Warrington then get off at Warrington and buy another to Padgate? There was a passenger by the TVM complaining that he couldn't buy a ticket to Sankey! so he took a photo of the machine and got the train anyway. Nobody came through the train so he got a free ride...

 

[island]

I had a look at the TVM at Widnes last night. It only allowed you to choose specific stations. The only intermediate ones showing for the CLC line were Hunt's Cross, Hough Green, Warrington and Birchwood. What are you supposed to do if you want to go from Widnes to Padgate? Buy a ticket to Warrington then get off at Warrington and buy another to Padgate? There was a passenger by the TVM complaining that he couldn't buy a ticket to Sankey! so he took a photo of the machine and got the train anyway. Nobody came through the train so he got a free ride...

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are quite clear on what is to be done in such a situation: the passenger should buy a ticket that will cover a part of his journey, and part-exchange it for the desired ticket on the train or at his destination.

 

[Geronimo]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are quite clear on what is to be done in such a situation: the passenger should buy a ticket that will cover a part of his journey, and part-exchange it for the desired ticket on the train or at his destination.

And what proportion of the traveling public do you expect to be aware of that? (I would expect below 10%)

 

[steve a]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are quite clear on what is to be done in such a situation: the passenger should buy a ticket that will cover a part of his journey, and part-exchange it for the desired ticket on the train or at his destination.

Sankey (his destination) is the next station to Widnes. The only ticket he could have bought to cover his journey was to Warrington, which is £3.60 compared with £2.50. Sankey is unmanned a lot of the time. How do the conditions of carriage cover that?

 

[Agent_c]

And what proportion of the traveling public do you expect to be aware of that? (I would expect below 10%)

About the same proportion, if not less, that are aware of the terms and conditions of any other contract they enter, such as to register an account post on this site, or take out a bank account, take a job, etc.

It doesn't mean the term goes away though.

 

[sheff1]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage are quite clear on what is to be done in such a situation: the passenger should buy a ticket that will cover a part of his journey ....

How do you buy a ticket for part of the journey if you are only travelling to the next station ?

 

[LeylandLen]

So if you purchased an anytime ticket to the next station AFTER the one you wanted, your destination not being listed, thereby paying more, would you get a refund? I doubt it !:cry:

 

[gray1404]

And what proportion of the traveling public do you expect to be aware of that? (I would expect below 10%)

I would agree, I was unware of that until I actualy read the NRCoC - something I only did once I became a member of this forum.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I often come across "tryers" who have a ticket for "warrington stations" and use them to go to birchwood, because birchwood is in warrington. Apparently.

Err, no it isnt, The M6 is in the way! £2.40 please!

I usually find they can afford beer, but not the fare.....

 

[CheesyChips]

...I usually find they can afford beer, but not the fare.....

Priorities

 

[steve a]

I often come across "tryers" who have a ticket for "warrington stations" and use them to go to birchwood, because birchwood is in warrington. Apparently.

Err, no it isnt, The M6 is in the way! £2.40 please!

I usually find they can afford beer, but not the fare.....

Warrington Borough Council seems to think Birchwood is part of Warrington ...

So you just ask them for the fare? not a PF or threaten to prosecute them?

There was a case on here a few weeks ago where somebody was prosecuted for saying they'd come from Stockport when they'd come from Hazel Grove, in spite of the fact that Hazel Grove is in Stockport and the fares were the same...

 

[unlevel42]

Recently I have been travelling to Liverpool on the direct Transpennine trains from Sheffield.
I have used singles, advances, returns etc.
When on the train I phone ahead to see if I should meet up at Liverpool South Parkway or Lime Street.
My ticket says Liverpool Stations or Liverpool. Advice from Sheffield and on the train and at the Parkway has always been to say OK.

Am I doing something wrong? ie stopping short in which case might a RPI take a different view to the train and platform staff?
The prices are always the same- even advances.
I am fairly certain that the barrier at the Parkway says OK as well.

 

[causton]

Am I doing something wrong? ie stopping short in which case might a RPI take a different view to the train and platform staff?

Technically yes. However after a lot of high profile cases in the media etc, unless it is obvious you are doing it to deliberately avoid paying a higher fare I am sure stopping short by one stop would not be seen as an issue. It all depends on the staff at the barrier though, but I am sure most will be fine with it.

 

[Camden]

Only in the case of Advances does that apply. Ordinary singles and returns it's not any kind of issue.

As above, though, even in the case of Advances if it's not to avoid paying a higher fare or getting a fare you wouldn't ordinarily be entitled to use for your real journey (i.e. you're not scamming it), staff have guidance to say they should use their discretion.

 

[Loop & Link]

The amount of verbal abuse I get over this at work! Liverpool Stations is just the loop, not Southport or Waterloo or Aintree as I've had people try to tell me before!

Usually for example Kirkdale-Manchester is the same price at Liverpool-Manchester (except Advance tickets - I've just checked)

When someone buys a ticket to Liverpool, if I notice they have cases or bags I ask them are they going onto anywhere else and if they already have their ticket, if not, I tell them it's the same price to wherever they are going! Easy!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Proof it causes genuine confusion there then