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Under 16s can't travel alone - Caledonian Sleeper
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Interestingly that makes the Sleeper unusable, other than the seats, for Scout parties. We as Leaders are strictly not permitted to share sleeping accommodation with under 18s nor to be 1-1 at any time, and sharing with just one under 18 would infringe both and be a certain chucking out and permanent banning on Safeguarding grounds.
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A solo bErth might be better !
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Can you clarify, do you intend to use the sleeping accommodation, or to travel in the seated accommodation of a train that also has sleeping compartments ?
If you intend to use a sleeping cabin, then the only strictly correct advice is to follow the rules and not to travel thus. I might however be tempted to purchase an adult ticket and travel.
If you intend to use the seated portion of the train, then IMHO the fact that the train also has sleeping coaches is of no consequence, and you may travel seated with a valid child ticket just as on any other train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No; there is (and always was under ScotRail) a ban on unaccompanied under 16s in the seated coach, largely because it really *does* require a bit of discipline to be quiet when sitting there.
misterredmist
Member
Whilst it's a shame the poster could not travel, I can understand the operator's ruling on this , in fact , in view of the potential cans of worms, it's a no brainer....
Indeed, I wonder if an unaccompanied junior was involved in some sort of incident on the train whether all those saying how silly it is that they can't travel now would change their minds and blame the TOC for allowing them to travel!
What sort of incident would happen? Especially if in a solo berth/seated portion.
Do you really need me to spell it out? :roll:
There are a lot of assumptions being made on this thread, pay an adult fare, solo occupancy etc but the fact remains that the OP is still classed as a minor in the eyes of the law, okay he appears to be a very sensible minor but he is still a minor!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A 16 or 17 year old is also legally a minor.
In that case, if Serco are using the legal definition, why are they allowing 16/17 year olds to travel?
A 16 year-old, while still a minor, is considered mature enough to make certain decisions about their body that a 15 year old is not.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I very much doubt that that is the reason for this rule.
I would beg to differ there are many many 15 year-old that are more mature than a 16 year old.
Sam
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect he was referring to the age of consent, which is 16 (except for people in legally defined positions of responsibility over a 16 or 17 year old e.g. teachers, for whom it is 18).
I see apologises.
Sam
I also doubt it's the reason for this rule but it does show that 16 and 17 year-olds are treated differently in law than sub-15's, while still being minors for other purposes.
In England and Wales, yes; in Scotland, no.
Depends on what purpose you are considering. 17 year-olds can vote, but can't watch a film classified as suitable only for adults.
In Scotland, a person has full legal capacity at the age of 16.
Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991.
This is not the case in England and Wales.
Yes, but the point remains that they cannot: watch an Adults-only film in a cinema, enter a casino, buy alcohol or tobacco, etc. All of these things are defined both as 'adults only' and also '18 year old' - so for some purposes they are adults, for other purposes they are not. It all depends on how 'adult' is defined.
None of your examples relates to entering into a contract by purchasing a ticket for a train.
At the risk of going off topic, would I be right in thinking all these examples are cases of matters reserved to Westminster, rather than being devolved?
Neither does the ban on under 16 year-olds travelling unaccompanied. Besides, the rule applies to tickets sold in England as well as those sold in Scotland.
I'm not sure, good question. I know that Holyrood were able to change the rules around alcohol retailing (Sunday morning, post 10-pm ban), but I don't know if lowering the age for purchasing would be in their remit.
ian959
Member
For all the stuff that has been posted, the simple answer as to why under 16s cannot travel unaccompanied on the sleeper would have everything to do with under 16s being minors - as established by Scottish law. It will come down to duty of care, as there is no effective way that a child can be protected 100% of the time due to closed cabins.
Unaccompanied minors on planes have to be treated differently too but they can travel because the provision of security and supervision is much easier on an open cabin plane with maybe 6 or more staff on board. Plus unaccompanied minors are often placed in seats close to staff duty areas so that a more watchful eye is available.
I think this is a sensible policy by Serco in all the circumstances, even though it will disadvantage some.
Unaccompanied minors on planes have to be treated differently too but they can travel because the provision of security and supervision is much easier on an open cabin plane with maybe 6 or more staff on board. Plus unaccompanied minors are often placed in seats close to staff duty areas so that a more watchful eye is available.
I think this is a sensible policy by Serco in all the circumstances, even though it will disadvantage some.
Just looked to see what Knowledgbase says, so here goes:
- Children (under 16) are not permitted to travel unaccompanied at all
- In berth accommodation they must either share a cabin with another adult in the group or have sole occupancy of a cabin. In the latter case, there must be an accompanying adult travelling in the same coach.
- In seated accommodation, they must be accompanied by an adult in the seated coach.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Protected from what? I fear a game of buzzword bingo.
arabianights
Member
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I took the sleeper alone - on a child ticket - aged 14 and above 14 or 15 years ago (guess how old I am!) on various occasions - I don't think the world has changed appreciably since then when it comes to over-protectiveness of children, when did this rule come in?
I agree with the advice to just do it on an adult ticket and ignore it
I agree with the advice to just do it on an adult ticket and ignore it
gray1404
Established Member
If the OP did end up getting an Adult ticket its a shame they would not be entitled a railcard discount (depending on the type of ticket brought) as no 16-24 railcard yet either. Therefore, trying to get a cheaper sleeper Advance could be better.
Of course, I am not advising they should buy an adult ticket and travel on it. However, if it was my child then I might very well do that if they were mature enough to travel alone.
Of course, I am not advising they should buy an adult ticket and travel on it. However, if it was my child then I might very well do that if they were mature enough to travel alone.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
The thing that immediately comes to mind is rape.
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