Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I caught a Northern 144 from Huddersfield to Batley earlier, and it was like riding a mechanical bull at a fairground.

How would you say that same Class 144 journey would have been like in one of "Newton Heath's Finest"... if you have ever experienced that particular form of "traction " from Huddersfield to Batley?

 

[Bantamzen]

The thing I don't get is why that actually matters, if they provide the comfort and the capacity required and are reliable?

Yes, I like new 350s as much as anyone else. But I wouldn't overly care if LM's entire fleet was replaced with a load of 319s or something, provided they fitted decent 2+2 seating to them. In Germany there are loads of 1960s and 1970s loco-hauled coaches knocking around with brand-new interiors. Why does it matter how old the shell is provided the comfort and capacity is up to scratch? Is it that typical UK obsession with new cars transferring to rail?

As I've said I would welcome them on Bedford-Bletchley, so it isn't just a "suck it up, North" thing. But for some nothing other than brand new stock will do. Why? If it was a choice between 4x20m brand new DMUs or 8x20m second-hand ones, I'd choose the used ones every time. The biggest thing we want is a seat for everyone.

It matters because in order to get better use of the the network, and get long term subsidies down, you have to draw more people out of their cars and onto the trains. But if those people aren't making the switch because they believe that the trains in their area are old and slow, then bringing in the more old and slow stock isn't exactly going to change things, even if they've had a make over. If the punters aren't going to be on the trains in the first place, then their perception isn't going to change.

You're quite right, the reputation is for "old and dirty". But the thing is, if you provide a reliable train with a nice interior, it'll seem new, regardless of how old it actually is. It's not as if people complain much about HSTs, despite them being 40 years old. They're reliable and their interiors are nice, with the one thing that lets them down being the doors.

As for limited usefulness, sure, their usefulness is limited, as is every other train's. Different units have different purposes - you wouldn't see a Voyager operating the Stourbridge Branch for instance. But what they do is provide a low cost, comfortable DMU to tide over until electrification becomes more widespread allowing new-build EMUs. Perhaps they're not ideal, but unless you really want to keep Pacers...

But the D stock would be even more limited than a Voyager, most here agree that at best they are suitable for slow branches. But the way the current franchise runs, stock can end up on just about any part of the network. So they seem to need a flexibility of stock to allow them to keep things running. But a large number of D trains would either mean that this flexibility is lost, and so they can't so easily cover failures, or Ds would end up running on main lines holding the show up. I can't imagine any TOC wanting to run this franchise wanting this.

I caught a Northern 144 from Huddersfield to Batley earlier, and it was like riding a mechanical bull at a fairground. The D stock is probably too slow for this route, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that it would be more comfortable.

Hmm, lightweight ex-LU stock that has rarely if ever seen over 55mph with a set of transit engines strapped underneath? I'd hold onto that money for now if I were you...

 

[Julia]

It matters because in order to get better use of the the network, and get long term subsidies down, you have to draw more people out of their cars and onto the trains. But if those people aren't making the switch because they believe that the trains in their area are old and slow, then bringing in the more old and slow stock isn't exactly going to change things, even if they've had a make over. If the punters aren't going to be on the trains in the first place, then their perception isn't going to change.

Very true - except where the perception is that they are "old, slow, unreliable and overcrowded". Fixing the latter two relatively cheaply (by increasing the fleet size and reducing diagramming intensity a bit, and releasing the better quality units off moribund branches) at least buys time for fixing the others.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It matters because in order to get better use of the the network, and get long term subsidies down, you have to draw more people out of their cars and onto the trains. But if those people aren't making the switch because they believe that the trains in their area are old and slow, then bringing in the more old and slow stock isn't exactly going to change things, even if they've had a make over. If the punters aren't going to be on the trains in the first place, then their perception isn't going to change.

At the risk of being branded a heretic and a non-supporter of rail travel, which is most untrue but is something peculiar to my having been involved in this thread from those long and far-off days when discussions on the processes leading to the bid submission with a number of hopeful extracts from two of the local newspapers, carrying on to the success of the bid which was not just all about the Todmorden Chord but also about the reinvigoration of the Weavers Triangle area in Burnley, where it was hoped that the combination of both of these two projects would go somewhere to the improvement of the East Lancashire area,, then followed by the construction and signalling works up to early 2014, then the news that no trains were available to run the service for a year, I confess to then making postings about the X43 "Lancashire Witch" bus service, as this was at least something that commuters could use and something that saw a dedicated fleet of high-quality modern buses with wifi and ergonomically designed seating which was then supplemented by an even more modern fleet of such vehicles in the coming months. This I did to highlight the available public transport options available from the Burnley area to Manchester.

Therefore, it is not only the new rail service with a range of elderly and decrepit rolling stock that prospective rail passengers would need to be weaned on to away from their cars, there still remains this bus option for those who have the foresight to see that allowing more time for travel in the morning can save many pounds over a year (as it will be noted that employers do not care about the travel implications of homeward-bound journeys).

As you say, even allowing for parking costs in Manchester, the idea of using a rail service that can incorporate some of "Newton Heath's Finest" amongst the proffered offerings and a selection of railway stations, some of which are some distance away from the towns that they purport to serve, with "park and ride" associated offered facilities for those driving to and from their homes to use this rail service, is not something that would be actively advertised by any reputable advertising agency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Therefore, it is not only the new rail service with a range of elderly and decrepit rolling stock that prospective rail passengers would need to be weaned on to away from their cars

But while the shells of D78s may be old, there is no reason, if the refurb is comprehensive enough, that it should be "decrepit". fGW's HSTs are not decrepit - sufficiently so that ScotRail are going to get at least another 10 years out of them after fGW have finished with them. ATW's Mk3s are not decrepit - they are very nice indeed. The practice of refurbishing older stock - and doing the job properly - is very common in mainland Europe as well as buying new stock.

Rail vehicles are more like houses than cars in how they behave, provided they are not rusted too badly. My house was built in 1970. Is it decrepit? No, as since I moved in I have progressively been giving it a full refurbishment. Would it make any difference if it were built in 1870? No. Could a house built in 1990 be decrepit? Yes, if it's received no maintenance at all since it was built.

Whether the D78s will be any good (60mph limit aside) therefore depends only on what is done to them. And none of us have seen that yet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But while the shells of D78s may be old, there is no reason, if the refurb is comprehensive enough, that it should be "decrepit".

Unfortunately, you missed the fact that the rolling stock that I so described in my posting above this morning was making reference to the "2015 offerings" to commence service on the "finally at-long-last running" of the Todmorden Chord service are what actually are in existence....rather than the D78 trains that seem still to be in the stages of testing.

Are my postings now becoming less easy to read, let alone understand, now that I have joined the ranks of "The Septuagenarians"..:roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

Are most of the 850 ish Mk3's that were built still in service ? If not, what happened to them ?

It's quite a daunting prospect to try and break down the mark 3 fleet for analysis, but I've given it a go. Comparing 1991 levels with 2015, while we have lost 125 sleeper vehicles from the network, we have only lost 37 HST or loco-hauled "day" mark 3s. This can be accounted for by those HST vehicles scrapped following major accidents in the late nineties, and for the relatively small number of former West Coast mark 3a carriages and DVTs that have been cut up.

There are 1089 mark 3 vehicles (HST and loco hauled, but discounting royal and departmental vehicles) remaining registered on the national network, of which 51 are not in use with an operator (31 of which are loco-hauled day stock).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are my postings now becoming less easy to read, let alone understand, now that I have joined the ranks of "The Septuagenarians"..:roll:

No, that's just me not reading the thread properly. Sorry.

 

[sprinterguy]

I caught a Northern 144 from Huddersfield to Batley earlier, and it was like riding a mechanical bull at a fairground.

Have they got rid of the continuous welded rail on the Transpennine route all of a sudden then. Sure they had it last time I travelled over the route...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How would you say that same Class 144 journey would have been like in one of "Newton Heath's Finest"... if you have ever experienced that particular form of "traction " from Huddersfield to Batley?

I've never travelled on one of Newton Heath's 142s between those two particular stations, but I have travelled on one of Heaton's 142s between Halifax and Huddersfield, which is a comparable journey time within the same locale, and it was fine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am surprised that you are still having to make this statement and while that I am glad that you did so, it appears that there are still some upon this thread who still cannot accept this as a statement of fact.

With good reason, I shouldn't wonder: The last time I recall forum members bewailing "second hand stock" in a "third rate franchise" was with regard to the proposal to use cascaded class 319s on the electrified North West services, and how passengers would treat their "new" trains with derision. Now that they are in service however, while they haven't exactly set the world alight, I notice that it has gone very quiet on that front and there is little to no criticism to be found. Odd that...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You've ignored the reasons of why I said there are better routes than the Risborough branch. Of course a 60mph can run on a 40mph branch but that's not exactly testing it to the max is it?

I didn’t realise that we had to destruction test the trains in passenger service, we’ve got test tracks for that which Vivarail will hopefully put to good use before the trains are let loose on the public at all. Princes Risborough to Aylesbury would be a good proving ground for the trains after this stage has been completed, to test things that can only really be proven in passenger service: The effects of regular door cycles, frequent acceleration and deceleration to and fro over a short route, and uneven or heavy passenger loadings, and all over a route that is largely (though by no means entirely) self-contained.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

How would you say that same Class 144 journey would have been like in one of "Newton Heath's Finest"... if you have ever experienced that particular form of "traction " from Huddersfield to Batley?

I have indeed had a Merseyrail and a bus seated 142 on this route, along with a 141 years ago. The ride yesterday was so poor that I do wonder if the DMS(L) vehicle I was in might have had a severe wheel flat. It was 144017, for the record. Wheel flats of course are an issue for all stock including the D-trains, but but bogied stock would be less affected I'd have thought.

 

[sprinterguy]

I have indeed had a Merseyrail and a bus seated 142 on this route, along with a 141 years ago. The ride yesterday was so poor that I do wonder if the DMS(L) vehicle I was in might have had a severe wheel flat.

Ah, that might explain it admittedly! Certainly you'd expect the ride quality of a four wheel vehicle to be affected to a far greater extent by a wheel flat than one with bogies.

You certainly get one hell of a bounce with a Pacer on the jointed track round the tight curves at Hall Dene on the Durham Coast route as well.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Unfortunately, you missed the fact that the rolling stock that I so described in my posting above this morning was making reference to the "2015 offerings" to commence service on the "finally at-long-last running" of the Todmorden Chord service are what actually are in existence....rather than the D78 trains that seem still to be in the stages of testing.

Are my postings now becoming less easy to read, let alone understand, now that I have joined the ranks of "The Septuagenarians"..:roll:

In answer to your last paragraph I'm afraid the answer is yes. But that may be a consequence of me being only a few months from surviving to my eighth decade.
I find Lord Denham type short simple sentences easier to read and comprehend but not easy to write.
Ah well time for my nap.
Jeff

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In answer to your last paragraph I'm afraid the answer is yes. But that may be a consequence of me being only a few months from surviving to my eighth decade.
I find Lord Denham type short simple sentences easier to read and comprehend but not easy to write.
Ah well time for my nap.
Jeff

Consider me to be suitably admonished. Just think, for so many years, I was the one who advocated the KISS system of "Keep it simple stupid" in our consultancy to be an ideal mode for my younger staff to follow.

Five years have now elapsed since my retirement and it would appear that my verbosity now knows no bounds...

Mea culpa. mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

[FordFocus]

The traditional test ground for Derby-built DMUs, including those to be used at 100mph on the MML, was the Matlock branch. You've got to start somewhere, and if that's a success move to bigger things.

Trying to fit it into the current hourly Matlock to Newark Castle trains seem a bit tight.

Possibly a single line that's quiet and has plenty of capacity, even a freight only line?

 

[sprinterguy]

Trying to fit it into the current hourly Matlock to Newark Castle trains seem a bit tight.

I believe that Neil Williams was suggesting using them on the passenger service. That is how the prototype class 150s and 151s were used in their early days.

Prior to entering passenger service they were also tested on the Wirksworth branch, though with the loss of the mainline connection that is no longer an option if the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway were looking to earn some additional revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that Neil Williams was suggesting using them on the passenger service. That is how the prototype class 150s and 151s were used in their early days.

And the 170s. I wasn't so much suggesting Derby-Matlock for D78s, though it might work. My point was that testing 60mph stock on a 40mph line is no less sensible than testing 100mph stock on a below-100mph line like that.

Prior to entering passenger service they were also tested on the Wirksworth branch, though with the loss of the mainline connection that is no longer an option if the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway were looking to earn some additional revenue.

I think the EVR still do plenty of testing work, it just gets trucked in.

 

[Kneedown]

I think a really good line to put these units through their paces in passenger service would be the Robin Hood line. 60mph max apart from a stretch of 70mph between Bulwell and Kirkby, and that's only attainable for a very short time in the up direction. The local MP is also pushing again for the extension to Ollerton, which if successful would require another one or two units.
Sounds ideal to me.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Consider me to be suitably admonished. Just think, for so many years, I was the one who advocated the KISS system of "Keep it simple stupid" in our consultancy to be an ideal mode for my younger staff to follow.

Five years have now elapsed since my retirement and it would appear that my verbosity now knows no bounds...

Mea culpa. mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Admonish?
Me?
I would never consider such heresy.
I assumed my concentration and attention span can now last only a few seconds.
Jeff
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Consider me to be suitably admonished. Just think, for so many years, I was the one who advocated the KISS system of "Keep it simple stupid" in our consultancy to be an ideal mode for my younger staff to follow.

Five years have now elapsed since my retirement and it would appear that my verbosity now knows no bounds...

Mea culpa. mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Admonish?
Me?
I would never consider such heresy.
I assumed my concentration and attention span can now last only a few seconds.
Jeff

 

[edwin_m]

And the 170s. I wasn't so much suggesting Derby-Matlock for D78s, though it might work. My point was that testing 60mph stock on a 40mph line is no less sensible than testing 100mph stock on a below-100mph line like that.

Derby-Matlock trains get up to a fair speed between Derby and Belper, which is about 10 miles with no significant restrictions except for the first bit out of Derby.

 

[Monkey Magic]

Why test a 60mph train on a 40mph branch line?

Would Oxford - Worcester not be a better alternative considering the unit can potentially go to Long Marston from there easier?

Line speed is 100 in places I believe.

Also a intensive service with very few free paths. The two single track sections would require very smart working between Charlbury-Oxford, Norton Junction-Evesham.

Unless you were planning to do all your testing between midnight and 5am I'm not sure how you'd fit the testing in.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Initial testing I'd have thought could only really take place at Old Dalby, the GCR or Monk Bretton, the latter only likely if Northern agree to cooperate with Vivarail - unlikely if the ITT is to be believed, though the fact that the Penistone line was used in the early computer modelling could be a starting point. Even with the apparent hindrances placed by the ITT Northern will need some slack in the fleet in the run up to 2020, with DDA modifications needing to be sorted. As a semi-regular user of the Penistone line, I wouldn't see a problem with these units being used at least in the short term. Perhaps the Penistone line will end up being the battleground between the D78 and the e144!

 

[LowLevel]

Keep the crappy things out of the East Midlands - we're quite happy with our nice guard operated Sprinters not DOO spec Underground tin cans

Given Matlock to Ambergate is operated by a no signaller key token I doubt you'll see DOO trains up there unless it's fitted with signalling.

 

[devinier]

Keep the crappy things out of the East Midlands - we're quite happy with our nice guard operated Sprinters not DOO spec Underground tin cans

Given Matlock to Ambergate is operated by a no signaller key token I doubt you'll see DOO trains up there unless it's fitted with signalling.

Can't the D trains have guards on them then ?
What difference does NST make to doo ? I'm not saying there isn't a reason I just don't know what it is. To be clear I am against doo.
I don't think Matlock would be a good route for them in any case. Robin Hood Line could be an ideal permanent home though, let alone just for testing. There would probably be potential there to reopen sidings somewhere for maintenance, or maybe have a depot somewhere like Shirebrook. ☺

 

[northwichcat]

What has whether the operator offers seat reservations got to do with the age or condition of the stock?

Where would you put seat reservations tickets, or even seat numbers on the 142s, 150s (with original interiors) or 319s? Either you need to replace the seats or you need to fit electronic seat reservation displays - which I doubt you could do on a 142!

Even the Northern stock which has seats with spaces for seat reservation tickets don't usually retain seat numbers!

 

[Dent]

Where would you put seat reservations tickets, or even seat numbers on the 142s, 150s (with original interiors) or 319s? Either you need to replace the seats or you need to fit electronic seat reservation displays - which I doubt you could do on a 142!

Even the Northern stock which has seats with spaces for seat reservation tickets don't usually retain seat numbers!

Has any operator actually cited difficulties positioning reservation tickets as the sole reason for not offering reservations on routes where they otherwise would?

 

[northwichcat]

Has any operator actually cited difficulties positioning reservation tickets as the sole reason for not offering reservations on routes where they otherwise would?

Yes. TransPennine Express have said that due to them now using loaned 156s from Northern they are no longer able to offer seat reservations on most Manchester Airport to Blackpool services. Seat reservations had been available on those services for the past 15 years.

It's likely Northern won't even consider offering seat reservations due to multi-million pound refurbishments of their trains being out of the question during this franchise. However, the short explanation they give on their website is just "You cannot reserve seats on Northern trains."

 

[swt_passenger]

Has any operator actually cited difficulties positioning reservation tickets as the sole reason for not offering reservations on routes where they otherwise would?

Yes. SWT switched to 'train only' reservations about 3 years ago and explained in a later web chat that they did it to remove the necessity to put out paper labels, which would presumably take some time on a train up to ten cars long.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Keep the crappy things out of the East Midlands - we're quite happy with our nice guard operated Sprinters not DOO spec Underground tin cans

Given Matlock to Ambergate is operated by a no signaller key token I doubt you'll see DOO trains up there unless it's fitted with signalling.

Who says they will be DOO? They will be to whatever spec the ordering TOC wants.
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Yes. SWT switched to 'train only' reservations about 3 years ago and explained in a later web chat that they did it to remove the necessity to put out paper labels, which would presumably take some time on a train up to ten cars long.

LM stopped because their turnarounds are too short to reliably place them, if I recall.

 

[FordFocus]

Line speed is 100 in places I believe.

Also a intensive service with very few free paths. The two single track sections would require very smart working between Charlbury-Oxford, Norton Junction-Evesham.

Unless you were planning to do all your testing between midnight and 5am I'm not sure how you'd fit the testing in.

Thanks, never realised how busy it was

Great Central could be an excellent call.

 

[kieron]

Yes. SWT switched to 'train only' reservations about 3 years ago and explained in a later web chat that they did it to remove the necessity to put out paper labels, which would presumably take some time on a train up to ten cars long.

Surely not as long as clearing up the mess left behind by the last set of people to use a train up to ten cars long?

Seat reservations do take time and money to organise, though, and cost more again if the operator can't honour them. I certainly don't know whether they bring in enough through extra ticket sales to justify any operator offering them.