General Election 2015 - Thoughts/Predictions/Results

[muddythefish]

[By the way, you have an ideology, I have an ideology, we all have an ideology, and we all act ideologically. Any party - or individual for that matter - who did not behave ideologically would actually be classified as psychopathic. It is not a criticism to describe a policy as ideological, as it simply means it is consistent]

Not all parties behave ideologically - in fact, most govts use a pragmatic approach because they realise once in power that governing by political dogma is unworkable and important issues are not black and white. This Tory-led led govt however has used the deficit as an excuse to reduce the size of the state and cut back on welfare for the poorest while rewarding the rich with tax cuts - so in this case it has been acting in line with pure Tory ideology. So yes, they have been consistent and in this respect those who voted for them at the last election presumably agree with those policies. It is correct however to condem those policies as ideological when the few continue to benefit at the expense of the majority.
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Cop out, because if we ever have a referendum which is unlikely it will be on a subject that affects virtually everything we do. .

Standard Ukip narrative. Not true.
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Did you ever have cause to use the NHS during the magnificent 13 years of Labour ?, because I did and my experiences were no different to the experiences of people I know who've used the NHS since 2010

Emergency treatment is and was nearly always superb, follow up is more often a farce, how can that be down to Conservative or Labour policy ?, unless their policies are almost identical of course

Cut and paste below on NHS failings under the Tories since 2010 disproves the nonsense you have written.


1 1 million patients have had to wait longer than 4 hours at A&Es in the last year
2 180,000+ NHS Operations have been cancelled at the last minute since Tories came to power
3 There is currently a 2,300 shortage of Midwives
4 28% of Maternity Units turned away women in labour in just 1 six month spell (April-Sept 2012)
5 7,968 NHS beds have been axed since May 2010
6 5,870 NHS Nurses have been axed since May 2010
7 £1.39bn has been wasted on NHS Redundancies as a result of the Top-Down Reorganisation
8 Clinical Negligence claims have climbed 49% under the Tories
9 £12bn+ of your NHS has been put up for sale in the last 21 months
10 200 Ambulance Stations have been axed by the Tories
11 10% of A&Es have been axed by the Tories
12 There has been a 20,000% increase in the use of private ambulances
13 ‘Bouncing Discharges’ among patients with heart conditions are at 15%
14 Public Satisfaction with our NHS went from record highs to record lows in the first year of a Tory government
15 Complaints against our NHS have climbed 8% in just 1 year
16 Spending on agency staff has climbed 50% in 2 years
17 More than 35,000 NHS staff has been axed since May 2010
18 The Care Quality Commission has lost 25% of its staff at a time when more pressures are being placed upon the organisation
19 The Tories have accepted 744 donations worth £20million+ from Private Health Sources
20 Tories have broke their promise to increase NHS spending year on year
21 David Cameron & Jeremy Hunt have been rebuked for lying about NHS spending
22 A&E Waits are at an 8 year high for Q2 (2013)
23 Trolley Waits are at an 8 year high
24 Breaches of the 28 day guarantee have climbed 50% since Jeremy Hunt became NHS Boss
25 100 Private Health Providers have failed CQC inspections in the last 2 years
26 £400m of GP funding has been cut
27 21 medical treatments are no longer Free on the NHS
28 ‘Never Events’ have tripled since the Tories came to power
29 Firms the Tories gave NHS contracts to profit from are now being investigated by the Serious Fraud Office
30 73% of Nurses report increased stress levels and lower morale under Jeremy Hunt
31 NHS Direct was axed & replaced with a ill-prepared costly private alternative
32 Nurses have suffered a pay freeze for 1,000 days or more
33 10,000 NHS Fat Cats earning more than MPs have been handed 13% pay increases
34 £700m has been wasted on private consultancy payments since 2012
35 Jeremy Hunt is now worth £20million+ but expects nurses to suffer yet another year of pay freezes
36 The Tories continue to refuse to publish the NHS Risk Register despite a judge ordering them to do so
37 Jeremy Hunt wasted £92,000 of your cash appealing the decision preventing them downgrading Lewisham Hospital
38 The Tories handed 1 Major Hospital & 12 Community Hospitals to Private Firms to profit from
39 Key Tory advisors come from private health firms who now profit from our NHS as ‘revolving door’ politics hits our NHS
40 Tory Councillors who run lobbying firms list almost all major private medical firms among their clients
41 Tory MPs accept wage payments from Private Health firms profiting from the Tory NHS Bill
42 David Cameron broke his page 45 Tory Manifesto promise that the NHS would be safe in his hands
43 Tories allow a private health firm to profit from disabled children in Devon even though a judge says the decision was legally flawed
44 Attacks on NHS staff have climbed to over 60,000 a year under the Tories and now exceed total ‘Hate Crime’ in the UK
45 Tories have begun denying medical treatment to people based on their weight whilst accepting donations from fast food firms
46 Despite getting more than 160,000+ signatures to debate the NHS Risk Register the Tories refused to grant a debate in Parliament
47 1,900 people have been re-hired by the NHS despite receiving 6 figure redundancy payouts
48 £5bn of NHS services have been handed to firms with donor links to the Tory Party
49 Tories included EU Competition Laws in NHS Legislation resulting in 66% of NHS Contracts going to private providers
50 Tories exempt Private Health Firms from Freedom of Information Legislation making the job of holding them accountable almost impossible

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

51, Some wards at many hospitals have been downgraded or removed aswell.
For example stroke care is no longer available in Grimsby Hospital.
And Bridlington's hospital is not very useful anymore.

 

[Oswyntail]

....
Cut and paste below on NHS failings under the Tories since 2010 disproves the nonsense you have written....

Every single one of the items you list depends on context to assess whether it is bad or not. To take a random example: maternity units turning away mothers in labour. This has always happened because demand is, by its very nature, unpredictable. To provide for a bed for every woman of child bearing age is patently impossible, though theoretically necessary. Has this increased? By how much over what period? How many mothers were not given acceptable alternative provision? How much of the "problem" is caused by mothers stamping their feet and saying "I want"?
It could be that this is actually a success story for the Tories, because it shows a flexible system able to cope.

 

[ExRes]

Cut and paste below on NHS failings under the Tories since 2010 disproves the nonsense you have written.


1 1 million patients have had to wait longer than 4 hours at A&Es in the last year
2 180,000+ NHS Operations have been cancelled at the last minute since Tories came to power
3 There is currently a 2,300 shortage of Midwives
4 28% of Maternity Units turned away women in labour in just 1 six month spell (April-Sept 2012)
5 7,968 NHS beds have been axed since May 2010
6 5,870 NHS Nurses have been axed since May 2010
7 £1.39bn has been wasted on NHS Redundancies as a result of the Top-Down Reorganisation
8 Clinical Negligence claims have climbed 49% under the Tories
9 £12bn+ of your NHS has been put up for sale in the last 21 months
10 200 Ambulance Stations have been axed by the Tories
11 10% of A&Es have been axed by the Tories
12 There has been a 20,000% increase in the use of private ambulances
13 ‘Bouncing Discharges’ among patients with heart conditions are at 15%
14 Public Satisfaction with our NHS went from record highs to record lows in the first year of a Tory government
15 Complaints against our NHS have climbed 8% in just 1 year
16 Spending on agency staff has climbed 50% in 2 years
17 More than 35,000 NHS staff has been axed since May 2010
18 The Care Quality Commission has lost 25% of its staff at a time when more pressures are being placed upon the organisation
19 The Tories have accepted 744 donations worth £20million+ from Private Health Sources
20 Tories have broke their promise to increase NHS spending year on year
21 David Cameron & Jeremy Hunt have been rebuked for lying about NHS spending
22 A&E Waits are at an 8 year high for Q2 (2013)
23 Trolley Waits are at an 8 year high
24 Breaches of the 28 day guarantee have climbed 50% since Jeremy Hunt became NHS Boss
25 100 Private Health Providers have failed CQC inspections in the last 2 years
26 £400m of GP funding has been cut
27 21 medical treatments are no longer Free on the NHS
28 ‘Never Events’ have tripled since the Tories came to power
29 Firms the Tories gave NHS contracts to profit from are now being investigated by the Serious Fraud Office
30 73% of Nurses report increased stress levels and lower morale under Jeremy Hunt
31 NHS Direct was axed & replaced with a ill-prepared costly private alternative
32 Nurses have suffered a pay freeze for 1,000 days or more
33 10,000 NHS Fat Cats earning more than MPs have been handed 13% pay increases
34 £700m has been wasted on private consultancy payments since 2012
35 Jeremy Hunt is now worth £20million+ but expects nurses to suffer yet another year of pay freezes
36 The Tories continue to refuse to publish the NHS Risk Register despite a judge ordering them to do so
37 Jeremy Hunt wasted £92,000 of your cash appealing the decision preventing them downgrading Lewisham Hospital
38 The Tories handed 1 Major Hospital & 12 Community Hospitals to Private Firms to profit from
39 Key Tory advisors come from private health firms who now profit from our NHS as ‘revolving door’ politics hits our NHS
40 Tory Councillors who run lobbying firms list almost all major private medical firms among their clients
41 Tory MPs accept wage payments from Private Health firms profiting from the Tory NHS Bill
42 David Cameron broke his page 45 Tory Manifesto promise that the NHS would be safe in his hands
43 Tories allow a private health firm to profit from disabled children in Devon even though a judge says the decision was legally flawed
44 Attacks on NHS staff have climbed to over 60,000 a year under the Tories and now exceed total ‘Hate Crime’ in the UK
45 Tories have begun denying medical treatment to people based on their weight whilst accepting donations from fast food firms
46 Despite getting more than 160,000+ signatures to debate the NHS Risk Register the Tories refused to grant a debate in Parliament
47 1,900 people have been re-hired by the NHS despite receiving 6 figure redundancy payouts
48 £5bn of NHS services have been handed to firms with donor links to the Tory Party
49 Tories included EU Competition Laws in NHS Legislation resulting in 66% of NHS Contracts going to private providers
50 Tories exempt Private Health Firms from Freedom of Information Legislation making the job of holding them accountable almost impossible

Well Mr Cut and Paste, if you open your eyes you'll see I mentioned MY experience, I didn't mention a load of other peoples beliefs or axes that they wished to grind

I'm pretty sure that someone with an empty and sad life could find 50 anti subjects to waffle on about from the last 13 year Labour fiasco
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On an entirely different heading, I see the subject of a referendum is being rubbished

So let's consider a different subject that could be brought up, the reinstatement of the death penalty. How many of those spouting about any form of referendum being unnecessary would be quite accepting of a British government reinstating the death penalty without a referendum simply because the people had 'given it the power to do so' in a general election

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It will make no difference to Labour who are terrified of giving voters a chance to have a say on Europe in case they vote the wrong way.

What utter rubbish. Labour appear to be opposed to a referendum because the Labour leadership believes that having one would cause a lot of uncertainty for businesses, which could damage the economy. You may or may not agree with that viewpoint, but surely there's no need to make up such a bad motive for Labour having that policy when there's a perfectly obvious benign motive: The one that Labour politicians have given and which I've just pointed out.

As for 'terrified of giving voters a chance to have a say' - well, there's a general election coming up, at which voters will have their chance to have a say.
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So let's consider a different subject that could be brought up, the reinstatement of the death penalty. How many of those spouting about any form of referendum being unnecessary would be quite accepting of a British government reinstating the death penalty without a referendum simply because the people had 'given it the power to do so' in a general election

Well, for my part, if a Government was elected with a mandate to bring back the death penalty, and chose to do so, then, I don't see any constitutional issues with them doing so without a referendum.

I'm more inclined to see this the other way round. Almost every decision that any Government makes is done without a referendum. That includes both decisions that were in manifestos and decisions that were made in the light of circumstances after a Government was elected. And many of those policies have profound effects on the lives of many people. Allowing a Government to get on with its job, subject to the scrutiny of Parliament and with the prospect of an general election at the end of its term is after all the only way the country can sensibly be governed. And so far as I can tell, it appears that most people accept that in just about every other policy area.

So what is about the EU that means that issue alone should have a referendum when almost nothing else has one?

 

[Seacook]

I agree with the thrust of what you say, some people have lived here for some time and paid their taxes and I wouldn't seek to restrict their access to free healthcare, but there needs to be a formal system of qualification for those people not holding UK passports.

I do not have, nor have I ever held, a passport of any description. It seems a bit incongruous to be expected to produce one, not in order to travel to another country but to obtain services in my own country.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Holding a UK passport does not entitle you to much. It's about whether you live here and pay taxes here.

If you don't live here, a UK passport (as shorthand for citizenship) doesn't entitle you to welfare benefits or student funding, for instance.

And that's really how it should be.

 

[ExRes]

Well, for my part, if a Government was elected with a mandate to bring back the death penalty, and chose to do so, then, I don't see any constitutional issues with them doing so without a referendum.

What exactly is a 'mandate to bring back the death penalty' ?, I'm talking about a government of any persuasion, elected without any mention of the death penalty in their manifesto, then introducing it because they are in government and because they choose to do so, are you saying that everyone would and should accept that decision without demanding a referendum ?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What exactly is a 'mandate to bring back the death penalty' ?, I'm talking about a government of any persuasion, elected without any mention of the death penalty in their manifesto, then introducing it because they are in government and because they choose to do so, are you saying that everyone would and should accept that decision without demanding a referendum ?

'mandate' meant something like 'was in the manifesto. With your more specific parameter of the Government bringing in the death penalty without mentioning it in their manifesto, then it would not change my answer. In that kind of situation, I might well believe the Government in question had behaved atrociously. Depending on the circumstances, it might motivate me to write to my MP, go on a demonstration, or change who I vote for at the next election. But I would not demand a referendum because I would still regard Parliament as the appropriate place to make that kind of decision.

A referendum would mean placing the decision in the hands of people who for the most part have never studied the issues involved, will have no detailed knowledge of the likely results of either choice and will have zero knowledge of how the policy might be implemented. In general, I think that's a crazy way to make decisions, whether it be on the death penalty, Europe, or almost any other issue.

(Just to be clear. I personally am somewhat undecided on both the death penalty and EU membership, but I'm fairly sure my answer would be the same if you used something that I did have strong opinions about as your example)

 

[yorksrob]

'mandate' meant something like 'was in the manifesto. With your more specific parameter of the Government bringing in the death penalty without mentioning it in their manifesto, then it would not change my answer. In that kind of situation, I might well believe the Government in question had behaved atrociously. Depending on the circumstances, it might motivate me to write to my MP, go on a demonstration, or change who I vote for at the next election. But I would not demand a referendum because I would still regard Parliament as the appropriate place to make that kind of decision.

A referendum would mean placing the decision in the hands of people who for the most part have never studied the issues involved, will have no detailed knowledge of the likely results of either choice and will have zero knowledge of how the policy might be implemented. In general, I think that's a crazy way to make decisions, whether it be on the death penalty, Europe, or almost any other issue.

(Just to be clear. I personally am somewhat undecided on both the death penalty and EU membership, but I'm fairly sure my answer would be the same if you used something that I did have strong opinions about as your example)

A referendum isn't ideal, however, there are some occasions (particularly major constitutional issues) when I think an issue is too big to be decided as a part of day to day government. For example, in the case of the Scottish independence debate, if such a matter were to be decided according to the manifesto of the winning party, any election in which one major party decided to back independence and another didn't, would effectively become a single issue referendum anyway, in which case, how do people get to decide on the day to day issues of Government ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

There was no referendum when the death penalty was abolished, or when abortion was legalised, despite the fact both decisions were very controversial at the time.

I'm not sure legislation by referendum is something we would really want too much of. Where do we draw the line? On questions of self-determination you should have a referendum- which we did for Europe, something the kippers choose to ignore- but on anything else? It just ends up being a rubber stamp of prejudice.

 

[Johnuk123]

There was no referendum when the death penalty was abolished, or when abortion was legalised, despite the fact both decisions were very controversial at the time.

I'm not sure legislation by referendum is something we would really want too much of. Where do we draw the line? On questions of self-determination you should have a referendum- which we did for Europe, something the kippers choose to ignore- but on anything else? It just ends up being a rubber stamp of prejudice.

Can you tell me when the referendum on Europe was ?

 

[Tetchytyke]

6 June 1975. Ironically, it was a Labour manifesto commitment. Why don't you try looking at Google?

 

[Johnuk123]

6 June 1975. Ironically, it was a Labour manifesto commitment. Why don't you try looking at Google?

I don't need to look on Google as I knew the answer, I just wanted you to put it on here so people can see that if you're under 58 you've never had the chance to vote on Europe.

 

[radamfi]

Holding a UK passport does not entitle you to much. It's about whether you live here and pay taxes here.

It also allows you to live and work anywhere in the EU/EEA. Unfortunately, a lot of people want to deny us that privilege.

 

[DownSouth]

I would put it that amending a Constitution is an appropriate use of a referendum, as part of ensuring that a Constitution is stable and not subject to the whims of the current legislative cohort. The Constitution of Australia enshrines a referendum (which must achieve a majority across the whole Commonwealth and in a majority of States) as the only method of amending the Constitution, and it's a situation I'm quite happy with.

There are other methods of ensuring the stability of a Constitution, such as the US system where an amendment must be passed by first the Congress and then takes effect only once three quarters of the state legislatures have ratified their consent.

The problem with all this for the UK is that there is no Constitution to amend, just a list of Acts which legal experts opine have functions that might be considered constitutional. All of these Acts could be repealed or amended as the parliament of the day sees fit.

My understanding is that there is (as a consequence of not having a Constitution) no legal force attached to any referenda in the UK, which really makes them just consultative plebiscites. Holding a consultative plebiscite is not a bad thing in itself, but shouldn't be confused with a real referendum.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... if you're under 58 you've never had the chance to vote on Europe.

I demand a referendum on Magna Carta:roll:

 

[Johnuk123]

I demand a referendum on Magna Carta:roll:

Ah yes Magna Carta "Did she have to die in vain"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I demand a referendum on Magna Carta:roll:

What about our membership of

• The United Nations
• NATO
• The Commonwealth

I don't recall ever being given the chance to vote on any of them!

 

[ExRes]

I don't recall being given the chance to vote on the imposition of personal taxes, but then I suppose we could do the same as the Greeks and stop paying it



Ooops, sorry to any Greeks on here, I should've mentioned the Italians as well ........

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

If anything I feel you should get the choice between the monarchy and democrazy.
It's silly that in a "free" society we still have to accept birthrights.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not old enough to get a vote on loads of things, what difference does it make? Shall we do a referendum every day just to make sure everyone gets asked?

Part of society is living with the decisions of predecessors.

 

[yorksrob]

Referendums should be reserved for major constitutional issues IMO.

 

[ainsworth74]

But of course the problem is we don't have a constitution! So what's a constitutional issue (unless, I suppose, it's a vote on creating one )?

 

[yorksrob]

But of course the problem is we don't have a constitution! So what's a constitutional issue (unless, I suppose, it's a vote on creating one )?

Arguably, it would entail any legislation pertaining to how the country is constituted geographically, as well as key legislation about the process of Government.

A constitution - but not codified. Also, we don't have a distinction between primary and ordinary legislation (unless you count legislation backed by international treaty).

 

[muddythefish]

But of course the problem is we don't have a constitution! So what's a constitutional issue (unless, I suppose, it's a vote on creating one )?

Is it a problem ? We've existed for centuries or longer without a constitution and have one of the most stable democracies in the world.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Is it a problem ? We've existed for centuries or longer without a constitution and have one of the most stable democracies in the world.

What democrazy? I don't remember voting for a president!
We are officially ruled by a monarch like in the Dark Ages, the only difference is that the PM she appoints tells her what to say at speaches and she keeps her nose out of politics the rest of the time.

 

[muddythefish]

What democrazy? I don't remember voting for a president!
We are officially ruled by a monarch like in the Dark Ages, the only difference is that the PM she appoints tells her what to say at speaches and she keeps her nose out of politics the rest of the time.

I think you're getting confused. Britain is a unitary democracy governed within the framework of a constitutional monarchy. A democracy does not require a president.

 

[ExRes]

What democrazy? I don't remember voting for a president!
We are officially ruled by a monarch like in the Dark Ages, the only difference is that the PM she appoints tells her what to say at speaches and she keeps her nose out of politics the rest of the time.

Just a small point which you seem to have missed, nobody voted for a president, we, those that bothered to vote that is, voted for a democracy, the result?, Conservatives won 306 seats out of 650 giving no single party a majority, I believe you'll find that is exactly what a democratic vote can bring whereas a presidential vote brings something like a Putin to power, pray tell us which you would prefer

Best to leave your second paragraph alone I think as it's too childish for any other comment

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I think you're getting confused. Britain is a unitary democracy governed within the framework of a constitutional monarchy. A democracy does not require a president.

Democrazy is when the leader is elected by the people. That did not happen. A democrazy which is governed by a "framework" is no democrazy at all, Hong Kong is a good example of this.

Most people couldn't vote for a potential leader as the PM is a MP.
And for those saying the wrong people could get elected here's a quote:
"In a democrazy people get the government they deserve"
What happens if a future king is a tyrant?
It's happened before. Should the monarchy rule because of birthright? Ofcourse not, as with everything else it should a choice between the bedt people for the job.
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Just a small point which you seem to have missed, nobody voted for a president, we, those that bothered to vote that is, voted for a democracy, the result?, Conservatives won 306 seats out of 650 giving no single party a majority, I believe you'll find that is exactly what a democratic vote can bring whereas a presidential vote brings something like a Putin to power, pray tell us which you would prefer

Best to leave your second paragraph alone I think as it's too childish for any other comment

I know there's no president. But if there was it would allow for people to vote for their favourite MP and ensure their favourite party gets into government. Rather than these compromises nobody voted for.