Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bletchleyite]

They'd also need to consider whether to go for a standard DMU order for local routes or to go for a more costly DEMU option which is either dual-powered or can be converted to electric at a later date.

I think there is a very strong case for bi-mode units with the ability to run at 100mph/110mph under 25kV but at a more sedate pace on diesel. There are many regional lines where this capability would be useful.

Neil

 

[glbotu]

Just to point out to anyone in doubt. Tyne/Wear/Tees services would not be suitable for D-Trains, as there's a reasonable amount of ECML running, namely between Heaton TMD and Darlington as well as a few morning peak services.

 

[northwichcat]

Just to point out to anyone in doubt. Tyne/Wear/Tees services would not be suitable for D-Trains, as there's a reasonable amount of ECML running, namely between Heaton TMD and Darlington as well as a few morning peak services.

I'm not sure if the ECML at Darlington is so badly congested that adding 2-3 minutes to Northern services would cause an issue.

If you compare the number of trains through Darlington between 07:30 and 08:30: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DAR/2015/02/12/0730-0830?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt with the number of trains through Stockport between 07:30 and 08:30: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SPT/2015/02/12/0730-0830?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

It doesn't look like the ECML through Darlington is used as intensively.

 

[Wolfie]

However, if Porterbrook eliminate single car 153s what do they offer TOCs who still require some low capacity trains for branch lines? There certainly aren't going to be new standard single car DMUs, so a low cost solution is needed - one option could be refurbished 143/4s. I'm of the opinion Porterbrook have come up with the refurbished Pacer because they want a product to offer in lieu of the 153s. If they don't offer a solution then they could lose money if something like the PPM 175 goes to market: http://www.parrypeoplemovers.com/PPM175-spec.htm and TOCs instead opt for that.

My bold

Porterbrook understandably want to make best use of their existing assets and see a role for refreshed 143/144s.

I must question your last sentence in part though. Given that rolling stock procurement, not least because of a mismatch between the time necessary to make a decent return on capital invested and short TOC franchises, is mostly done through ROSCOs, not directly by TOCs, why do you believe that any PPM 175s (or indeed Vivarail products) won't be procured through a ROSCO (may not be Porterbrook I concede)?

 

[northwichcat]

I must question your last sentence in part though. Given that rolling stock procurement, not least because of a mismatch between the time necessary to make a decent return on capital invested and short TOC franchises, is mostly done through ROSCOs, not directly by TOCs, why do you believe that any PPM 175s (or indeed Vivarail products) won't be procured through a ROSCO (may not be Porterbrook I concede)?

Porterbrook own the 143/4s.

I'm not sure how the 139s were funded but none of the main ROSCOs (Porterbrook, Angel and Eversholt) appear to own them. Do Parry People Movers Ltd have their own financing options?

The D78 conversions are being funded by Railroad Development Corporation (a Pittsburgh based company) so the main ROSCOs won't be involved in financing them.

 

[HSTEd]

How about converting some excess 317s (I believe some are going to be kicked out of use by various new stock orders) into pseudo-210s?

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not sure how the 139s were funded but none of the main ROSCOs (Porterbrook, Angel and Eversholt) appear to own them. Do Parry People Movers Ltd have their own financing options?

The 139s are leased to London Midland through Porterbrook:
http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...ry-people-movers-for-stourbridge-branch-line/

 

[Bletchleyite]

How about converting some excess 317s (I believe some are going to be kicked out of use by various new stock orders) into pseudo-210s?

Aren't they steel-bodied? If so will they not have the same corrosion problems of other Mk3s e.g. 150s?

313s are aluminium, but unlike D-stock don't have new bogies. The combination of a corrosion-free body and new bogies is what makes the D-stock particularly suitable.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

How about converting some excess 317s (I believe some are going to be kicked out of use by various new stock orders) into pseudo-210s?

Won't happen for a few years. The GA West Anglia split with Enfield/Chesunt/Chingford services going to Overground will need more 317s in service, due to less flexibility available for diagramming.

 

[northwichcat]

How about converting some excess 317s (I believe some are going to be kicked out of use by various new stock orders) into pseudo-210s?

I thought it was 313s and 315s that would be replaced with the 313s due to be scrapped and the best of the 315s retained and refurbished for Valley Lines.

If there's an order to replace 317s as well then I think DfT need to cut back some orders as they're ordering replacements for non-life expired trains for no apparent reason.

The 139s are leased to London Midland through Porterbrook:
http://www.londonmidland.com/about-...ry-people-movers-for-stourbridge-branch-line/

Ah OK I missed that.

 

[Wolfie]

Porterbrook own the 143/4s.

The D78 conversions are being funded by Railroad Development Corporation (a Pittsburgh based company) so the main ROSCOs won't be involved in financing them.

The conversions are indeed being funded by Railroad Development Corporation but that does not mean that they wish to own them for the long-term. It is probable that if they successfully find a taker for the 278/D-trains they will wish to take their profit by selling to a ROSCO (the only question being the timing). That is exactly how such venture capital firms work...

The ROSCO then makes it's money from the lease charges...

 

[HSTEd]

If there's an order to replace 317s as well then I think DfT need to cut back some orders as they're ordering replacements for non-life expired trains for no apparent reason

Its mainly that we have an awful lot of new trains coming in for Thameslink and Crossrail, and I expect the units to kick down the order and eliminate the Class 313s, 315s and 317s as these seem to be the weakest remaining units (well 319s mroe than 317s, but the units are essentially interchangeable for AC use, and I think the 319s dual voltage capability will likely make them more useful remaining as true electric units, leaving us with the 317s to mess around with).

This gets even more true once you include the projected LO order that will kill the remaining 315s and the projection of some sort of new service out of Moorgate.

 

[northwichcat]

Its mainly that we have an awful lot of new trains coming in for Thameslink and Crossrail, and I expect the units to kick down the order and eliminate the Class 313s, 315s and 317s as these seem to be the weakest remaining units (well 319s mroe than 317s, but the units are essentially interchangeable for AC use, and I think the 319s dual voltage capability will likely make them more useful remaining as true electric units, leaving us with the 317s to mess around with).

The 319s not set for the North West are expected to take over Thames Valley services once that's wired. There were a small number of 319s that would have been left over but now LM are releasing their 321s and are taking on 7x 319s as replacement, we'll probably see all 86 x 319s find new homes without any replacing older trains like 317s.

 

[HSTEd]

The 319s not set for the North West are expected to take over Thames Valley services once that's wired. There were a small number of 319s that would have been left over but now LM are releasing their 321s and are taking on 7x 319s as replacement, we'll probably see all 86 x 319s find new homes without any replacing older trains like 317s.

I thought the 387s were chalked in for Thames Valley?
Also what will happen to the released 321s?

321s might actually be easier to turn into pseudo-210s since they won't have gangways to get in the way.....

 

[northwichcat]

I thought the 387s were chalked in for Thames Valley?

There are all sorts of rumours regarding 387s. I think the last one was 12 car 387 formations on Corby-London.

Also what will happen to the released 321s?

If you mean the LM ones they'll be with Scotrail for the duration of the next Scotrail franchise.

 

[Wolfie]

While this is indeed a fascinating discussion and I'll add my penorthworth there were complaints on the 319/Northern thread about something far less off the piste than this is with respect to the Vivarail proposals...

I thought the 387s were chalked in for Thames Valley?
Also what will happen to the released 321s?

321s might actually be easier to turn into pseudo-210s since they won't have gangways to get in the way.....

At a guess the 321s could eventually all (perhaps including the 321/322s currently forming a micro-fleet with Northern) find their way to Scotrail.. that would be a way of getting rid of the Scotrail 314s and with careful fleet management (platform lengths/suitability etc) offering Scotrail a capacity boost...

The 319s not set for the North West are expected to take over Thames Valley services once that's wired. There were a small number of 319s that would have been left over but now LM are releasing their 321s and are taking on 7x 319s as replacement, we'll probably see all 86 x 319s find new homes without any replacing older trains like 317s.

Yes, but I doubt that the 319s will be with LM for too long. Far more likely that they will be released and replaced with the TPE 350s with TPE getting a more suitable and coherent fleet once wiring is finished... If those 319s went to Northern then the 321/322s could indeed be released...

 

[alexl92]

At a guess the 321s could eventually all (perhaps including the 321/322s currently forming a micro-fleet with Northern) find their way to Scotrail.. that would be a way of getting rid of the Scotrail 314s and with careful fleet management (platform lengths/suitability etc) offering Scotrail a capacity boost...

What would Northern use to for Doncaster services if they lost their 321/322s? IIRC it's the only electrified service they operate out of Leeds other than the Airedale/Wharfedale lines - can't imagine that the DfT would willingly see it switch to diesel power.

 

[Wolfie]

What would Northern use to for Doncaster services if they lost their 321/322s? IIRC it's the only electrified service they operate out of Leeds other than the Airedale/Wharfedale lines - can't imagine that the DfT would willingly see it switch to diesel power.

319s, whether directly from Thameslink or the ones currently going to LM, would be my best guess was it to happen...

 

[RobShipway]

What about the Class 317 and 365's that are to be displaced by Class 700's on the Thameslink routes?

 

[edwin_m]

What about the Class 317 and 365's that are to be displaced by Class 700's on the Thameslink routes?

I do wonder about the future of these units, particularly the 317s which are the oldest steel-body AC units still running, and don't seem to figure in anybody's cascade speculation.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but I doubt that the 319s will be with LM for too long. Far more likely that they will be released and replaced with the TPE 350s with TPE getting a more suitable and coherent fleet once wiring is finished... If those 319s went to Northern then the 321/322s could indeed be released...

At the moment we don't have confirmed dates for North TPE electrification (sometime between December 2018 and December 2021 is all we know) so I imagine the next LM franchise will be let on the basis that they'll continue to use the 319s.

321/9s now have wi-fi funded under a government scheme as well as PTE funded CCTV. I know a condition of the CCTV funding is the trains will remain in the PTE area or if they are moved away they will be replaced by trains with CCTV already fitted. I'm not sure if there are any conditions on the wi-fi.

As Northern won't operate any electric services between Leeds and the North West the west and east side EMU fleets may remain completely separate even after Manchester-Leeds is wired.

 

[Wolfie]

At the moment we don't have confirmed dates for North TPE electrification (sometime between December 2018 and December 2021 is all we know) so I imagine the next LM franchise will be let on the basis that they'll continue to use the 319s.

321/9s now have wi-fi funded under a government scheme as well as PTE funded CCTV. I know a condition of the CCTV funding is the trains will remain in the PTE area or if they are moved away they will be replaced by trains with CCTV already fitted. I'm not sure if there are any conditions on the wi-fi.

As Northern won't operate any electric services between Leeds and the North West the west and east side EMU fleets may remain completely separate even after Manchester-Leeds is wired.

All 319s are fitted wth CCTV... See Porterbrook's brochure:
http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/319 Brochure.pdf

I can hardly see how a Govt funded wifi-fitting programme would be region specific (unless the stock was proposed for export)...

Even if the west and east side fleets were normally operated seperately having the same rolling stock with both would offer more flexibility as well as logistics simpliification.

 

[67018]

I do wonder about the future of these units, particularly the 317s which are the oldest steel-body AC units still running, and don't seem to figure in anybody's cascade speculation.

Surely, based on the original topic of this thread, someone will have an idea to bung a diesel engine in them and operate them as DMUs

 

[Wolfie]

I do wonder about the future of these units, particularly the 317s which are the oldest steel-body AC units still running, and don't seem to figure in anybody's cascade speculation.

I wouldn't be too surprised to see more 317s (both those currently with GN and those with LO) end up with GA. That could give GA a fleet boost/refurbishment float and also free up more 321s for Scotrail. The latter would allow Scotrail to get rid of their 314s (which could be used as a source of parts for the 313s/315s)...

 

[ExRes]

Surely, based on the original topic of this thread, someone will have an idea to bung a diesel engine in them and operate them as DMUs

Surely a biomass fuelled log burner would be more environmentally friendly

 

[northwichcat]

I can hardly see how a Govt funded wifi-fitting programme would be region specific (unless the stock was proposed for export)...

I don't know the terms but thought it may be possible that it would provide a stumbling block for moving the trains. For instance, if the government funded 80% the scheme and the other 20% was raised locally then it would prevent a transfer unless the wi-fi system was removed and fitted to a different train and who would pay for that - even if it's only a couple of hours work?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't be too surprised to see more 317s (both those currently with GN and those with LO) end up with GA. That could give GA a fleet boost/refurbishment float and also free up more 321s for Scotrail. The latter would allow Scotrail to get rid of their 314s (which could be used as a source of parts for the 313s/315s)...

Why would Scotrail want more 321s? The Abeillo bid was based on 7 x 321s being acquired before the December 15 timetable change and then all other EMUs they acquire will be brand new Hitachi EMUs. They've even proposed an add-on order if the option of 3 year franchise extension (starting in March 2022) is awarded.

 

[Wolfie]

IWhy would Scotrail want more 321s? The Abeillo bid was based on 7 x 321s being acquired before the December 15 timetable change and then all other EMUs they acquire will be brand new Hitachi EMUs. They've even proposed an add-on order if the option of 3 year franchise extension (starting in March 2022) is awarded.

You know what, in my great plans to rationalise the railway I had completely forgotten that...

 

[colchesterken]

Much better idea..fit a small steam engine like the one at Didcot
Just being silly but it would be fun !

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Much better idea..fit a small steam engine like the one at Didcot
Just being silly but it would be fun !

Those little wheels will have their work cut out hauling a steam engine.
But it would be fun. Maybe it wouldn't a repaint either with steam ussually being allowed a non yellow cab.

 

[route:oxford]

How many days until the first demonstrator is running?