Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Peter Mugridge]

when the body sheared off from the under frame!!

...which is what it was designed to do under impact.

 

[doningtonphil]

EMT run Norwich to Liverpool via Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Oxford Rd.
TPEx run Liverpool to Newcastle via Manchester Victoria.

Thanks for the clarification Emyr. To be fair I don't know how different operators overlap in that neck of the woods and the Manchester-Liverpool journey was just a rather lazy (and incorrect) attempt at an example.

There are plenty of people who moan about their commute having to be on a pacer (there is no other choice) so I am just wondering what would happen if there was competition for commuter's custom.

But then I suppose ticketing would be a lot more tricky, ensuring the right operator got the revenue for the journey made

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

@J Collins & LNW-GW joint I only ask because of Pauls statement and given that none have been built yet I also don't understand how he can say they are so wonderful as I don't think Ive seen anyone say such a thing either.

My posting was worded as "sound so wonderful" based upon all the space that has been devoted to this D78 marketing idea flotation. There is a great deal of difference in what I actually wrote in my posting and a misconstrued reading of it as "are so wonderful"

While I am in a "Scrooge-like" seasonal uncharitable mood, I would venture the opinion about the Northern Rail franchise having being inured for years with "Newton Heath's Finest" then being threatened with these D78 units as their replacements (in what I read in postings on this website), that to cultivate the image of a "Poor Man's Railway" for the next "Northern Rail area" franchise, perhaps Poundland could decide to make a franchise bid...

 

[northwichcat]

perhaps Poundland could decide to make a franchise bid...

I think there would be less complaining about Pacers or potential D78 replacements if they were genuinely used as low cost services and there were alternative options available.

Think of Magic Bus services, Stagecoach run them on routes where there are alternative bus services and charge low fares for them. If don't want to go on the Magic Bus for say £1.50 you can pay £2.50 for the alternative bus.

However, for many people in the North if you don't want to catch a Pacer you have to wait an hour and even then the next train could be a Pacer as well.

 

[route:oxford]

I think there would be less complaining about Pacers or potential D78 replacements if they were genuinely used as low cost services and there were alternative options available.

Think of Magic Bus services, Stagecoach run them on routes where there are alternative bus services and charge low fares for them. If don't want to go on the Magic Bus for say £1.50 you can pay £2.50 for the alternative bus.

However, for many people in the North if you don't want to catch a Pacer you have to wait an hour and even then the next train could be a Pacer as well.

Poundland would be a good operator of the catering trollies.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Personally I think Poundworld would be better. But it won't be as good as you'd think. Imagine Ryanair on rails. £1 per stop, per seat, for toilet, etc.

 

[northwichcat]

Poundland would be a good operator of the catering trollies.

If it was the same prices as in the shops then I think everyone would like that.

If you want crisps, the catering trolley will offer you 6 for £1, if want Mars Bars then 3 for £1, if you want Ribena then 3 cartons for £1.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It can't tip over. The entire subway is underground with no room for it to tip over. The track is only 8inches smaller. So it's larger than Cape and Metre gauges.

please review the post where the track gauges were compared ...

' and " confusion ...

 

[oversteer]

First D stock is heading to Vivarail for conversion to a heavy rail prototype..

Interesting times ahead!

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...il-ready-to-start-converting-first-lu-d-stock

 

[asylumxl]

First D stock is heading to Vivarail for conversion to a heavy rail prototype..

Interesting times ahead!

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...il-ready-to-start-converting-first-lu-d-stock

I think the renders are a tad optimistic.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

First D stock is heading to Vivarail for conversion to a heavy rail prototype..

Interesting times ahead!

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...il-ready-to-start-converting-first-lu-d-stock

Yay!
I hope the D-Trains end up like they are shown on the Vivarail site.

 

[The Ham]

First D stock is heading to Vivarail for conversion to a heavy rail prototype..

Interesting times ahead!

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fl...il-ready-to-start-converting-first-lu-d-stock

From the above link

Vivarail has signed a contract to buy enough vehicles to build 75 two- or three-car DEMUs, which works out as 156 driving cars and 70 trailers.

156 driving cars would allow 78 vehicles to be produced, with 70 trailers the assumption would appear that the majority would be 3 coaches long.

That is unless they are working out the number of units based on all of them being 3 coaches long (some units formed of 3 driving cars with 1 driving unit left over at the end).

 

[Haydn1971]

156 driving cars would allow 78 vehicles to be produced, with 70 trailers the assumption would appear that the majority would be 3 coaches long.

I'd image a more flexible fleet of 2, 3 and 4 car units, which would allow anything from 2 to 8 units as either a single or paired up unit, more shorter units early in their new life, less but longer units as electrification, cascades, brand new units, and passenger growth move forward.

 

[northwichcat]

I'd image a more flexible fleet of 2, 3 and 4 car units, which would allow anything from 2 to 8 units as either a single or paired up unit, more shorter units early in their new life, less but longer units as electrification, cascades, brand new units, and passenger growth move forward.

Well certainly 3 car would cause problems on lines which have platforms only long enough for 4 car Sprinters. It'd be 156 seats on every service with no option for doubling up.

 

[WatcherZero]

From the above link



156 driving cars would allow 78 vehicles to be produced, with 70 trailers the assumption would appear that the majority would be 3 coaches long.

That is unless they are working out the number of units based on all of them being 3 coaches long (some units formed of 3 driving cars with 1 driving unit left over at the end).

They will be offering 2 or 3 but the order isnt indicative of final numbers as they are assuming some of the driving cars might turn out to be unviable to modify due to unseen structural detoriation and so trailers would be converted to make up numbers.

 

[jon0844]

I think the renders are a tad optimistic.

Take the existing train and just shove on some armour - job done!

 

[Bantamzen]

Yay!
I hope the D-Trains end up like they are shown on the Vivarail site.

Personally I hope not. They look exactly what they are, a cheap tube stock to heavy rail conversion. And the cab front, well the less said about that the better. A five year old with a box of crayolas could have done better.

It is not often I seriously doubt the viability of a transport project, but this one I seriously doubt that even in the medium term this is a good idea. Slow, and therefore route limited stock that won't even cover a full Pacer replacement programme which will mean buying new stock anyway. Cheapest does not always mean best or even appropriate.

 

[northwichcat]

Slow, and therefore route limited stock that won't even cover a full Pacer replacement programme which will mean buying new stock anyway. Cheapest does not always mean best or even appropriate.

Apparently the ROSCOs think if a diesel Pacer replacement option does go ahead it should cover the worst of the 150s as well, with some of them suffering badly from corrosion.

 

[northwichcat]

According to Tony Miles on wnxx a certain someone called Adrian is claiming all the bidders for the next Northern franchise are interested in using converted D78s in the North East and Cumbria and he has inquires with regards to their use by other franchises.

 

[Bletchleyite]

According to Tony Miles on wnxx a certain someone called Adrian is claiming all the bidders for the next Northern franchise are interested in using converted D78s in the North East and Cumbria and he has inquires with regards to their use by other franchises.

Not overly surprising, when they are a potential available DMU...the DMU shortage has ended up such that anything that will do the job goes!

Neil

 

[Fincra5]

I'm guessing they would be converted to DEMUs?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing they would be converted to DEMUs?

That's the plan.

Neil

 

[sprinterguy]

According to Tony Miles on wnxx a certain someone called Adrian is claiming all the bidders for the next Northern franchise are interested in using converted D78s in the North East and Cumbria and he has inquires with regards to their use by other franchises.

I wonder if that suggests that D-Trains would replace Heaton’s 142s (North East services that aren’t worked by 156s) and Neville Hill’s 153s (Cumbrian services that aren’t worked by 156s)? Perhaps additional D-Trains would be allocated to Neville Hill to directly cover those diagrams currently worked by Heaton 142s (I can’t imagine that 60mph ECS workings up the ECML from York to Newcastle would be easy to accommodate).

As long as Heaton was to retain it’s 156 fleet, and if these could be diagrammed for all Newcastle to Carlisle services I can just about accept that in terms of typical journey lengths for North East services, even if many of the end to end journey times on the services these trains would probably be covering are somewhat extended. I suppose we’ll have to wait to find out. It is not what I ever envisaged when picturing eventual Pacer replacement in the North East, though!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wonder if that suggests that D-Trains would replace Heaton’s 142s (North East services that aren’t worked by 156s) and Neville Hill’s 153s (Cumbrian services that aren’t worked by 156s)? Perhaps additional D-Trains would be allocated to Neville Hill to directly cover those diagrams currently worked by Heaton 142s (I can’t imagine that 60mph ECS workings up the ECML from York to Newcastle would be easy to accommodate).

As long as Heaton was to retain it’s 156 fleet, and if these could be diagrammed for all Newcastle to Carlisle services I can just about accept that in terms of typical journey lengths for North East services, even if many of the end to end journey times on the services these trains would probably be covering are somewhat extended. I suppose we’ll have to wait to find out. It is not what I ever envisaged when picturing eventual Pacer replacement in the North East, though!

There's probably quite a few services where the 60mph top speed won't have much of an impact on journey times, either because there's very little running faster than 60, or because the lightweight D78s with electric transmission will be a fair bit quicker off the mark. Penistone is an obvious one (and used as a model by Vivarail), and Calder Valley stoppers (via Bradford) another possibility. I don't think there's much running over 60 on the Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley so the stoppers on that route might be a candidate too. On the West side, Preston to Ormskirk and the Cumbrian Coast would be possibilities as would Rose Hill and Marple services. There might need to be some re-jigging of diagrams though, as currently these services interwork with others that wouldn't be suitable for the D stock.

 

[northwichcat]

There's probably quite a few services where the 60mph top speed won't have much of an impact on journey times, either because there's very little running faster than 60, or because the lightweight D78s with electric transmission will be a fair bit quicker off the mark. Penistone is an obvious one (and used as a model by Vivarail), and Calder Valley stoppers (via Bradford) another possibility. I don't think there's much running over 60 on the Leeds to Sheffield via Barnsley so the stoppers on that route might be a candidate too. On the West side, Preston to Ormskirk and the Cumbrian Coast would be possibilities as would Rose Hill and Marple services. There might need to be some re-jigging of diagrams though, as currently these services interwork with others that wouldn't be suitable for the D stock.

If you're going to increase the number of diagrams required and consequently the number of units required, it would defeat the point of finding a cheap train to lease.

As already discussed a micro-fleet in one area for one line isn't cost effective either.

There are no longer any trains terminating at Marple. Trains either go to Rose Hill, New Mills Central or Sheffield.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're going to increase the number of diagrams required and consequently the number of units required, it would defeat the point of finding a cheap train to lease.

It doesn't follow that a re-jig of diagrams would necessarily increase the number of them significantly (though I'd suspect it won't reduce them, as the current ones are probably to maximum efficiency if the TOC has any sense). But as with anything that would need to be calculated when deciding the viability of leasing D78s.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are no longer any trains terminating at Marple. Trains either go to Rose Hill, New Mills Central or Sheffield.

You could convert the Rose Hill and New Mills services and use 156s or similar on the longer-distance (and if I recall rightly semifast) Sheffield runs.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

It doesn't follow that a re-jig of diagrams would necessarily increase the number of them significantly (though I'd suspect it won't reduce them, as the current ones are probably to maximum efficiency if the TOC has any sense). But as with anything that would need to be calculated when deciding the viability of leasing D78s.

You could convert the Rose Hill and New Mills services and use 156s or similar on the longer-distance (and if I recall rightly semifast) Sheffield runs.

In the case of converting New Mills services it would as they are interworked with Sheffield services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of converting New Mills services it would as they are interworked with Sheffield services.

You have potential scope to rediagram the entire of Northern, which if an entire class (142) is dumped is likely, IMO. So they could interwork with something else entirely.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

You have potential scope to rediagram the entire of Northern, which if an entire class (142) is dumped is likely, IMO. So they could interwork with something else entirely.

Not really. The only Northern diesel departures from low number platforms at Piccadilly are Rose Hill, New Mills and Sheffield. Rose Hill works well as self contained diagrams, so that leaves Sheffield to work with New Mills. Unless you start running Sheffield services from high number platforms or Chester/Buxton from low number platforms (which would create more pathing difficulties) you're pretty much stuck with that.

 

[Haydn1971]

A stopper from Sheffield to Leeds takes 75 minutes, so would theoretically require 4 diagrams to operate, similarly Sheffield to Hudderfield would require 4 diagrams, plus another 3/4 on the Knottingley service... That's a larger "micro fleet" than TPE have of 350's