Rolling stock announcement regarding TPE (updated)

[8J]

starmill, you will not move down because there are no overhead grab ropes or poles?!? Come on! You are not only causing an inconvenience to your fellow passengers and the guard, you are delaying the train by increasing the dwell time. There are sufficient things to hold to stay balanced in the saloon so I think you're just being awkward myself...

Besides I'd rather stand myself in the quieter saloon than in the vestibules - considering a large number of NR 156's leak badly towards the middle.

 

[deltic08]

I think that, in general, the OP (Neil Williams) responded to has been quite balanced and constructive. At times I think nothing short of masses of brand new trains and even cheaper fares (all of course paid for by someone else) would be acceptable to our Northern brethren. Without being nasty, wake up and smell the coffee, it's not going to happen. All things being even the DfT short-term solution isn't roo bad...

I have been waiting for someone to take you to task yet again for your insulting posts but I think you are being ignored now.

I will say one thing. I am a southerner who chose to live and work in the North for a better lifestyle 40 years ago. Northerners do not want more than they were promised at the beginning of this franchise, 100 2-car diesel units. This was cancelled by politicians in the South because it was realised that new stock would be needed for Thameslink and finding a home for 86 4-car trains would be politically and economically preferable than scrapping hence NW electrification and cascade north as most of the crappy stock is.

Had the North received 100 new diesel units six or seven years ago there would not be as much dissatisfaction now with old, dirty, smelly, uncomfortable, unreliable Pacers 15 years beyond their design life as most of them would not exist to-day.

Footfall growth in the Leeds City Region has been 54% in the same timescale that growth in the rest of the UK has been 39%. Future growth in CP5according to Network Rail will be 5% per annum in Leeds City Region and only 3%per annum in the rest of the UK. There certainly hasn't been 54% growth in seats in this region and doubt there will 25% extra over the next five years.

£Billions are being spent in London and southeast to increase capacity. Nothing like that is being spent in the North.
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DRS confirmed as having signed a contract with Northern as regards traction provision for the Cumbrian coast... No details as yet.

Would have thought Class 37s and Mark2 stock would have been better on the Leeds-Carlisles especially if diagrammed for the limited stops. More accessible for the enthusiasts too. This would cascade four 158 units to elsewhere on Northern in turn cascading 156s to the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[Starmill]

starmill, you will not move down because there are no overhead grab ropes or poles?!? Come on! You are not only causing an inconvenience to your fellow passengers and the guard, you are delaying the train by increasing the dwell time. There are sufficient things to hold to stay balanced in the saloon so I think you're just being awkward myself...

Sorry for the delay replying, I was just dropping my latest sack of kittens off in the canal.

I'm unsure why I'm being vilified for the eminently sensible policy of not standing in an aisle where there is nothing to hold on to, save maybe the face of a seated person, on a journey that I know moves side to side a lot.

But as you were.

 

[PeterJ]

So transpennine got 51 brand new trains to replace five year old trains, then seven years later gets 10 more brand new trains to increase capacity
Today its announced transpennine are only losing five turbostars rather than all nine, Northern are getting 20 newly repainted 319s rather than the 14 previously announced as well as DRS LHCS, is that not as good as can be expected in the middle of general electrification of the north?

 

[PeterJ]

I really hope the new franchises from next summer include extra short HSTs, adelantes, 442s and 67/68/90s and orders for AT200s etc, but with electrification ongoing and only a year left on the franchises, an extra six 319s and LHCS is surely a minor victory

 

[deltic08]

So transpennine got 51 brand new trains to replace five year old trains, then seven years later gets 10 more brand new trains to increase capacity
Today its announced transpennine are only losing five turbostars rather than all nine, Northern are getting 20 newly repainted 319s rather than the 14 previously announced as well as DRS LHCS, is that not as good as can be expected in the middle of general electrification of the north?

I do not recognise five years old trains replaced by 51 brand new 185s. Please explain.

Yippee. Can't wait for 319s in the North as long as they have been painted to cover the cracks and grime of 30 years of use in the South. I am humbled that we are now being sent 20 instead of only 14 newly painted 30 years old 319s (he says removing cap and lowering head) Paint doesn't make them less worn mechanically or more reliable. Will paint stop draughts from the rattling doors and windows?

 

[Anvil1984]

So transpennine got 51 brand new trains to replace five year old trains, then seven years later gets 10 more brand new trains to increase capacity
Today its announced transpennine are only losing five turbostars rather than all nine, Northern are getting 20 newly repainted 319s rather than the 14 previously announced as well as DRS LHCS, is that not as good as can be expected in the middle of general electrification of the north?

Where do I start here

So transpennine got 51 brand new trains to replace five year old trains,

The majority of the 185s replaced 158s which were 14 - 16 years old. TPE only had 11 175s subleased at the start of the Franchise

then seven years later gets 10 more brand new trains to increase capacity

The units were 5/6 years old when TPE got their hands on them. SWT preferred the 158s as they were easier to work in multiple with their existing fleet. It was not just to increase capacity but to bolster a fleet which was also operating services that wern't originally in the franchise award

Today its announced transpennine are only losing five turbostars rather than all nine

They are losing all of their 170s just not all straight away. They are losing 5 in May and the others next year

Northern are getting 20 newly repainted 319s rather than the 14 previously announced as well

Only because Liverpool - Blackpool through services are being hastily split to faciliitate this

is that not as good as can be expected in the middle of general electrification of the north?

No, there needs to be some progress made in other areas of the Northern franchise and firm assurances that non electrified areas will see investment (i.e the North East) and we are still waiting to hear officially the plans for the TPE wiring and associated delay

 

[PeterJ]

My point was meant to be that there were brand new trains in the north and that in say Anglia or the Cardiff Valleys there haven't been
The key issue was that the SRA didn't build 4th coaches for the 185s, but now, with the long term view of ROSCOs, the length of the procurement process, ongoing electrification and the fact that the franchises are up for renewal next year there just aren't going to be new trains
I also still don't understand why the six extra 319s are such bad news when there are still pacers running

 

[Anvil1984]

My point was meant to be that there were brand new trains in the north and that in say Anglia or the Cardiff Valleys there haven't been

Anglia are you sure? 12 out of the 26 strong Greater Anglie DMU fleet are 170s

 

[PeterJ]

15 years old, older than the Coradias displaced from the North West, but yes, my apologies, you are quite correct

 

[Anvil1984]

15 years old, older than the Coradias displaced from the North West, but yes, my apologies, you are quite correct

The 175s werent on all of the TPE NW routes and again in the main 185s replaced 158s. 175s were not used solely on what is now TPE NW. They were used on Manchester to North Wales and Birmingham to Holyhead. The vast majority of the TPE fleet were 158s which were 15 years old when replaced

Also the 170s Anglia have are the same age as the 175s. As Anhlia have two batches of 170s some are newer than 175s

 

[Jonny]

Sorry for the delay replying, I was just dropping my latest sack of kittens off in the canal.

I'm unsure why I'm being vilified for the eminently sensible policy of not standing in an aisle where there is nothing to hold on to, save maybe the face of a seated person, on a journey that I know moves side to side a lot.

But as you were.

On various lines in the North of England, this can be an issue - particularly if there is normally ^some^ lateral movement, more so on 2-axle non-bogie units.
Athough, to be fair, there do seem to be some seat-top grab points on the 185s.
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No, there needs to be some progress made in other areas of the Northern franchise and firm assurances that non electrified areas will see investment (i.e the North East) and we are still waiting to hear officially the plans for the TPE wiring and associated delay

Exactly - perhaps arrangements could be made to send some EMUs to work ECML local services (in addition to TPE on York-Newcastle, and as replacements/extensions North of Newcastle, maybe even regular(ish) stoppers north of Morpeth... I can but dream...

 

[DarloRich]

Yippee. Can't wait for 319s in the North as long as they have been painted to cover the cracks and grime of 30 years of use in the South. I am humbled that we are now being sent 20 instead of only 14 newly painted 30 years old 319s (he says removing cap and lowering head) Paint doesn't make them less worn mechanically or more reliable. Will paint stop draughts from the rattling doors and windows?

yawn - perhaps you would like to walk instead.

The 319 are surely a stop gap pending the completion of the electrification works and the ordering of new electric trains. I do agree with you that more diesel trains are needed in the north and that they should, ideally, be new ones. Those new trains aren’t, however, going to be available in the short term. In the short term these moves will free up more trains ensuring more people get a seat more often. The debate, as you well know, is in relation to who pays. The government, perhaps wrongly, wants more of the burden to fall on the passenger.

At present I will take what I can get to improve services now – this seems like a practical solution to try elevate some of the problems by making the best use possible of the available assets. It isn’t perfect but it is a start.

EDIT - of course the government/SRA/new train pixies should have agreed to the purchase of a 4th coach for the TPE class 185's

 

[47802]

yawn - perhaps you would like to walk instead.

The 319 are surely a stop gap pending the completion of the electrification works and the ordering of new electric trains. I do agree with you that more diesel trains are needed in the north and that they should, ideally, be new ones. Those new trains aren’t, however, going to be available in the short term. In the short term these moves will free up more trains ensuring more people get a seat more often. The debate, as you well know, is in relation to who pays. The government, perhaps wrongly, wants more of the burden to fall on the passenger.

At present I will take what I can get to improve services now – this seems like a practical solution to try elevate some of the problems by making the best use possible of the available assets. It isn’t perfect but it is a start.

EDIT - of course the government/SRA/new train pixies should have agreed to the purchase of a 4th coach for the TPE class 185's

I suspect the 319's will be here as a long stop gap i.e. about 10 to 15 years certainly as far as Northern is concerned, however that's what we are getting and there are plenty of other threads to moan about 319's

Given the current situation its probably about the best solution you were likely to get so there isn't much point moaning about it, we await to see the specifications for the new Northern and TPE franchises. I imagine that MML electrification will get priority over TPE electrification as it is likely to have a much better business case.

 

[northwichcat]

Now I remembered why TPE can't put seat reservations on the 156s. While the ex-FNW ones do have spaces for seat reservation tickets and did have seat numbers, Northern removed the seat numbers in the refresh

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So the short version is:

• TPE lose only 4x2 coach trains instead of nine (after gaining 10x4 coach trains)
• Northern to gain over a dozen four coach EMUs for use in the North West
• All DMUs freed up by electrification appear to be staying in the North West
• So, quite an increase in capacity in the North West

Tony Miles later retracted his original comment and said TPE will in fact lose 5 x 170s to Chiltern and retain 4 x 170s.

people in the North West complaining about how hard done by they are

Well if Chiltern hadn't signed a lease for the 170s, Northern should have been able to keep all the units released for extra capacity. Despite what one or two posters post on here the Bolton route isn't the only line which should be receiving extra carriages.

but if you put something built back in the 1960s or 1970s on then they'll rejoice - I think that some people honestly believe that anything built after Thatcher came to power is rubbish (with the possible exception of the sainted 442s)...

If TPE were taking on HSTs (which seem to be more popular on here than bicycles at a cycle group) then they would at least be able to retain First Class, seat reservations and a trolley service on all their services.
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Only because Liverpool - Blackpool through services are being hastily split to faciliitate this

I've seen somewhere that isn't happening for certain yet. Northern are to evaluate whether it would be better overall for the franchise if:
a) an hourly Liverpool-Blackpool through service remains
b) some through services remain but some services get split
c) all services get split.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will say one thing. I am a southerner who chose to live and work in the North for a better lifestyle 40 years ago. Northerners do not want more than they were promised at the beginning of this franchise, 100 2-car diesel units. This was cancelled by politicians in the South because it was realised that new stock would be needed for Thameslink and finding a home for 86 4-car trains would be politically and economically preferable than scrapping hence NW electrification and cascade north as most of the crappy stock is.

Sorry, you'd prefer to have had DMUs than electrification? Wouldn't be my choice. I would rather some 319s (they aren't terrible units) with a chance of later upgrade than to get 172s as the Brum area did, with next to no chance of the Snow Hill lines being wired in the next 30-40 years.

I think there probably need to be *some* DMUs as well, though, to be fair, and I expect some will be ordered in the end. But they don't just come from a DMU shop, so the interim solution is still needed.

Neil

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

This might be a stupid question, answered many times over on previous boards...but why didn't Northern just order extra trains/coaches the same as Chiltern did? Small additional orders of 168s got built. 4, 3 and 2 car sets and then additional centre coaches, as and when required, and then most recently 4 172/0s.

Apart from the 172/0 build, Chiltern didn't wait for a large order to be placed for "economies of scale" they just got built what they needed, when they needed it.

I find all this "it's not our fault we don't have enough trains" cr@p from Northern bewildering.

ps ...I'm from Preston and I live in High Wycombe....so no North vs South bias from me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the TPE FAQ document, here are several references such as this one "All services between Manchester, West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, Humberside, the Yorkshire Coast and the North East will be operated by Class 185 trains with either three or six carriages as opposed to some currently being operated with Class 170 trains" which omit any reference to Liverpool. Then this statement "Northern Rail will operate electric trains (Class 319s) with 4 carriages between Liverpool and Manchester via Newton le Willows"

Is TPE North still going to be operating to Liverpool or are they terminating at Manchester?

That would be *very* controversial but it certainly seems to imply that...

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

but why didn't Northern just order extra trains/coaches the same as Chiltern did?

Northern didn't have an option for a new rolling stock order written in to their franchise agreement, so can only place an order if DfT (the franchiser) change their minds.

Chiltern have a clause allowing them to add more capacity, so they asked to add on a few trains to an order London Midland had placed and took advantage of the franchising mess to secure the TransPennine 170s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This might be a stupid question, answered many times over on previous boards...but why didn't Northern just order extra trains/coaches the same as Chiltern did? Small additional orders of 168s got built. 4, 3 and 2 car sets and then additional centre coaches, as and when required, and then most recently 4 172/0s.

Apart from the 172/0 build, Chiltern didn't wait for a large order to be placed for "economies of scale" they just got built what they needed, when they needed it.

I find all this "it's not our fault we don't have enough trains" cr@p from Northern bewildering.

Chiltern have a very different franchise structure to Northern - a long franchise with a lot of freedom. Northern have to get permission from the Government for any such investment, Chiltern basically don't.

Neil
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I'm unsure why I'm being vilified for the eminently sensible policy of not standing in an aisle where there is nothing to hold on to, save maybe the face of a seated person, on a journey that I know moves side to side a lot.

There's not a lot to hold onto in a Class 156 vestibule, either.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if there's a hidden message in the TPE news story. They've squashed the picture at the top of the article: http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/about-us/news/2015/01/announcement/
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That would be *very* controversial but it certainly seems to imply that...

On the announcement page it says

All of FTPE's services between Liverpool, Manchester, West Yorkshire, Humberside, North Yorkshire, the Yorkshire Coast and the North East will be operated by Class 185 trains

Of course 319s would be useless at providing a service between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington - the passengers would have to get out and push between Liverpool South Parkway and Deansgate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now I remembered why TPE can't put seat reservations on the 156s. While the ex-FNW ones do have spaces for seat reservation tickets and did have seat numbers, Northern removed the seat numbers in the refresh

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Am I the only one that really dislikes that interior colour scheme? Incredibly spartan and cold-looking compared with the old cream.

And it looks *incredibly* cheap that they painted all of it *except* the ceiling (much as as a DIYer I hate painting ceilings!)

Well if Chiltern hadn't signed a lease for the 170s, Northern should have been able to keep all the units released for extra capacity. Despite what one or two posters post on here the Bolton route isn't the only line which should be receiving extra carriages.

This would have been preferable, but the ROSCOs are unregulated commercial organisations, so what can you do?

If TPE were taking on HSTs (which seem to be more popular on here than bicycles at a cycle group) then they would at least be able to retain First Class, seat reservations and a trolley service on all their services.

And would have had to pad the timetable by a damned sight more than 10 minutes to cope with the slamdoors and the slower acceleration. And they aren't available for another few years, anyway. A solution was needed *now*.

And there is no reason a trolley service cannot operate on a Class 156, other than that trolley services are dying out on services of 1.5hrs or thereabouts and shorter because people simply aren't buying from them, they're buying before they board.

As for reservations (again, not something you used to see a lot of on these trains, and I think you're only seeing them now because of the almost-default use of them on online ticketing sites) I suppose TPE could modify the deal to be for 6 specific 156s and go round with a permanent marker putting the numbers back on. But I don't see the need for reservations on a regional service like that. Germany wouldn't have them.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Am I the only one that really dislikes that interior colour scheme? Incredibly spartan and cold-looking compared with the old cream.

And it looks *incredibly* cheap that they painted all of it *except* the ceiling (much as as a DIYer I hate painting ceilings!)

You should have see the interim interior for those trains. They used to have green and blue seats and carpets. At one point Northern fitted new purple seat covers and left the worn out green and blue carpet.

And would have had to pad the timetable by a damned sight more than 10 minutes to cope with the slamdoors and the slower acceleration. And they aren't available for another few years, anyway. A solution was needed *now*.

I'm not saying TPE should have taken on HSTs but saying why some people would have preferred older HSTs to Sprinters. Apparently the Blackpool services will become 10 minutes slower to allow for 75mph DMUs instead of 100mph DMUs so I'm not sure using a 125mph loco-hauled set would have been worse. 10 minutes sounds a lot but maybe there's a pathing issue with using slower trains so they'll have to sit at a junction for a few minutes.

As for reservations (again, not something you used to see a lot of on these trains, and I think you're only seeing them now because of the almost-default use of them on online ticketing sites) I suppose TPE could modify the deal to be for 6 specific 156s and go round with a permanent marker putting the numbers back on. But I don't see the need for reservations on a regional service like that. Germany wouldn't have them.

Like I said yesterday TPE operate the fastest service between Blackpool and Manchester Airport. With a lot of elderly people both living in Blackpool and visiting Blackpool should there be a risk that people have to stand for a large part of a 1 hour 33 minute service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You should have see the interim interior for those trains. They used to have green and blue seats and carpets. At one point Northern fitted new purple seat covers and left the worn out green and blue carpet.

Ugh. Though I remember the old NorthWest Express routes fondly, including the "green stripe" livery and interior.

I'm not saying TPE should have taken on HSTs but saying why some people would have preferred older HSTs to Sprinters. Apparently the Blackpool services will become 10 minutes slower to allow for 75mph DMUs instead of 100mph DMUs so I'm not sure using a 125mph loco-hauled set would have been worse. 10 minutes sounds a lot but maybe there's a pathing issue with using slower trains so they'll have to sit at a junction for a few minutes.

Yes, I do wonder if it's pathing related. I doubt the linespeed is 100mph for much of the route, and 185s with 2 engines going don't seem to accelerate much faster than 15x.

Like I said yesterday TPE operate the fastest service between Blackpool and Manchester Airport. With a lot of elderly people both living in Blackpool and visiting Blackpool should there be a risk that people have to stand for a large part of a 1 hour 33 minute service?

Far less risk of that where the new 4 car sets will have 300 seats, as opposed to the 169 seats of the single Class 185s being used beforehand?

This is why I believe this is a genuine improvement. And they aren't even 3+2 like the (justifiable) complaint about the 319s being so. They're not-terribly-spaced 2+2 with a fairly large proportion of tables.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

I've just updated the opening post with a summary of what's been revealed since the vague DfT press release.

 

[Bletchleyite]

[*]Barrow services will be reviewed due to existing portion workings no longer being possible. There will be no direct Manchester to Windermere services anymore.

The latter appears to be false - certainly one extra Windermere-Manchester direct service appears to be being added. Though there may well be none in the other direction.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Far less risk of that where the new 4 car sets will have 300 seats, as opposed to the 169 seats of the single Class 185s being used beforehand?

It's closer to 290 seats on a 4 car 156 (not an exact number as Northern have 2 different types of 156 interior.)

It's actually going to be less capacity at times.

For instance currently we have:

17:14 Manchester Oxford Rd to Windermere service (3 car 185)

followed by the:

17:29 Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow portion working (6 car until Preston.)

The press release says the 17:14 from Manchester Oxford Rd will be sent to Barrow instead with a connecting service to Windermere (presumably from Preston/Lancaster), with the 17:29 likely becoming a 4 car 156 to Blackpool North.

So currently there's 507 standard class seats across 2 services and I suspect from May they'll be just 459 standard class seats across 2 services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's closer to 290 seats on a 4 car 156 (not an exact number as Northern have 2 different types of 156 interior.)

These are the capacities, it does depend which you get:
http://members.madasafish.com/~dysgraphyk/156/class156nt.htm

However, you can't deny that that's splitting hairs, and 290 is still a *lot* more than 169. I can't see how that is even remotely something to complain about.

It's actually going to be less capacity at times.

For instance currently we have:

17:14 Manchester Oxford Rd to Windermere service (3 car 185)

followed by the:

17:29 Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Barrow portion working (6 car until Preston.)

The press release says the 17:14 from Manchester Oxford Rd will be sent to Barrow instead with a connecting service to Windermere, with the 17:29 likely becoming a 4 car 156 to Blackpool North.

So currently there's 507 standard class seats across 2 services and I suspect from May they'll be just 459 standard class seats across 2 services.

Yes, if that's the case that service may be an issue.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

The latter appears to be false - certainly one extra Windermere-Manchester direct service appears to be being added. Though there may well be none in the other direction.

Ah yes on checking it's no direct northbound services and none of the existing southbound services but 1 new southbound service being added in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes on checking it's no direct northbound services and none of the existing southbound services but 1 new southbound service being added in.

As in in total there will be no direct northbound services and only one direct southbound service?

Neil