What trains will virgin be using on the east coast main line

[swt_passenger]

Surely the operator isn't going to change and will continue to be East Coast Main Line Company Ltd, only as a subsidiary of Inter City Railways Ltd rather than as a subsidiary of DOR and trade as Virgin Trains East Coast? Or are ICR metging ECMLC Ltd into ICR?

The operator does change - the outgoing (current) operator is ECMLC. They are a subsidiary of DOR - the latter being the DfT 'shadow company' that just provides a skeleton 'operator of last resort' facility for emergencies. DOR itself cannot manage a TOC, they have to recruit the required number of people to do that.

The incoming operator is Inter City Railways (ICR). The parent companies being Virgin and Stagecoach groups. Because of the specific circumstances in this transfer, (i.e. ECMLC are not a real franchisee), ICR have to buy ECMLC and its assets.

 

[Stats]

The operator does change - the outgoing (current) operator is ECMLC. They are a subsidiary of DOR - the latter being the DfT 'shadow company' that just provides a skeleton 'operator of last resort' facility for emergencies. DOR itself cannot manage a TOC, they have to recruit the required number of people to do that.

The incoming operator is Inter City Railways (ICR). The parent companies being Virgin and Stagecoach groups. Because of the specific circumstances in this transfer, (i.e. ECMLC are not a real franchisee), ICR have to buy ECMLC and its assets.

I'm aware that the operator in reality changes. The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that as ICR are buying ECMLC they could choose to continue to use that company as the operating company but as a subsidiary of ICR in the same way that West Coast Trains is a subsidiary of Virgin Rail Group, or Govia Thameslink Railway as a subsidiary of Govia. That leaves ICR free to be the parent company of the bid vehicles for any of other inter city franchises that become available.

Anyway, this is off-topic.

 

[CosherB]

I'm aware that the operator in reality changes. The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that as ICR are buying ECMLC they could choose to continue to use that company as the operating company but as a subsidiary of ICR in the same way that West Coast Trains is a subsidiary of Virgin Rail Group, or Govia Thameslink Railway as a subsidiary of Govia. That leaves ICR free to be the parent company of the bid vehicles for any of other inter city franchises that become available.

Anyway, this is off-topic.

What is "West Coast Trains"? I thought Virgin Trains, as a 51/49% owned TOC by Virgin and Stagecoach respectively, operated the ICWC franchise?

 

[DownSouth]

What is "West Coast Trains"? I thought Virgin Trains, as a 51/49% owned TOC by Virgin and Stagecoach respectively, operated the ICWC franchise?

It would appear that you are incorrect - the company which runs the trains is indeed West Coast Trains Limited.

From what I can piece together, this is how it goes:

1. The Virgin Group creates a subsidiary company 'Virgin Rail Group Limited' for the purpose of getting into the reprivatised rail market.
2. Virgin Rail Group bids for and wins the InterCity West Coast and InterCity CrossCountry franchises.
3. Virgin Rail Group creates the subsidiary companies 'West Coast Trains Limited' and 'Cross Country Trains Limited' (i.e. the two Train Operating Companies) to run the two franchises, because they must be operationally separate and to allow Virgin Rail Group to pursue other interests as well as the two franchises already won - such as the high speed rail project (a project which never got off the ground) in Australia which they submitted a bid for in 1998.
4. Virgin Enterprises Limited (the part of the Virgin Group which owns and licenses the various Virgin trademarks) creates the trademarks for Virgin Trains, and licenses them to West Coast Trains and Cross Country Trains.
5. West Coast Trains and Cross Country Trains commence operations using the Virgin Trains brand name for public purposes, and the companies commonly get referred to by the informal names 'Virgin West Coast' or 'Virgin Cross Country' during the time both companies are operating.
6. The Virgin Group sells a 49% stake in Virgin Rail Group to Stagecoach late in 1998.
7. Cross Country Trains (aka Virgin Cross Country) ceases operations, leaving West Coast Trains as the only train operating company owned by Virgin Rail Group.

It would appear that the way it goes with the East Coast franchise will be similar - I would be happy to be corrected on the details:

1. The company 'Inter City Railways Limited' is created. Regardless of the mechanism by which it was created (not sure if one company created it and sold a stake to the other, or if it was a joint venutre from the start) it ends up being a company owned 10% by the Virgin Group and 90% by Stagecoach - just as Virgin Rail Group is owned 51/49 by the same parent companies.
2. Inter City Railways bids for and wins the InterCity East Coast franchise - just as Virgin Rail Group won the other franchises in the 1990s.
3. Inter City Railways will either purchase East Coast Main Line Company Limited from Directly Operated Railways or create a new subsidiary company which will purchase the assets of ECMLC Ltd. This company (whether ECMLC or a new subsidiary) will be the Train Operating Company.
4. This company will trade under the brand name Virgin Trains or the new trademark 'Virgin Trains East Coast', either of which would be owned by Virgin Enterprises Limited and licensed to the train operating company.

Thus as the new train operating company will trade under the Virgin Trains name, it is correct to say the trains will be run by Virgin, unlike what 455 Driver claims early in this thread. It will not be correct in any way to say that the trains will be operated by Stagecoach, only to say that they will be operated by a company whose parent company is majority owned by Stagecoach.

It is possible that the Virgin Group will attempt to become a private operator on the California High Speed Rail network in the future if it goes to a franchise-style operation instead of being fully owned by the state government as Amtrak California is currently - but early indications are that it will stay government-owned with a new name not linked to Amtrak. If such a bid was done in conjunction with Stagecoach, it could well be that their US rail operations do get run by a new subsidiary of Virgin Rail Group (the 51/49 company) or Inter City Railways (the 10/90 company) or under a new company with a different ownership split.

 

[Geezertronic]

Thus as the new train operating company will trade under the Virgin Trains name, it is correct to say the trains will be run by Virgin, unlike what 455 Driver claims early in this thread. It will not be correct in any way to say that the trains will be operated by Stagecoach, only to say that they will be operated by a company whose parent company is majority owned by Stagecoach.

I would suggest that for the average Joe, they will see that ECML trains are run by Virgin Trains (as the brand name) but in reality they will be run by 'Inter City Railways Limited' which is 90% / 10% owned by Stagecoach / Virgin Group (not Virgin Rail Group or Virgin Trains though) which is kind of what you said tbh

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

[*]The Virgin Group sells a 49% stake in Virgin Rail Group to Stagecoach late in 1998.

Not quite.
I don't think Virgin Group (ie SRB) ever owned more that 51% of Virgin Rail Group.
The other 49% was initially in the hands of private equity partners (mainly from the US), and it was this chunk which Stagecoach bought in 1998.

 

[DownSouth]

Not quite.
I don't think Virgin Group (ie SRB) ever owned more that 51% of Virgin Rail Group.
The other 49% was initially in the hands of private equity partners (mainly from the US), and it was this chunk which Stagecoach bought in 1998.

Interesting, do you have a source for it?

The normal model for Virgin is to start a company on their own and then sell a stake once it's profitable. I would expect that genuinely expensive stuff with big startup costs (e.g. airlines) would be the only time they would work differently, not public transport franchises where they would not generally be spending their own money.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting, do you have a source for it?
The normal model for Virgin is to start a company on their own and then sell a stake once it's profitable. I would expect that genuinely expensive stuff with big startup costs (e.g. airlines) would be the only time they would work differently, not public transport franchises where they would not generally be spending their own money.

I was looking yesterday but life before Stagecoach is not covered in the articles I found.
It was something like Berkshire Partners or some such name I think.

 

[DownSouth]

I was looking yesterday but life before Stagecoach is not covered in the articles I found.
It was something like Berkshire Partners or some such name I think.

Berkshire Hathaway perhaps?

That's the large, and somewhat Virgin-like, group headed up by Warren Buffett which since 2009 is the 100% owner of BNSF Railway.

 

[marcouk2]

Found a few articles from around the time when Stagecoach bought into Virgin Rail:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/stagecoach-buys-into-virgin-rail.html

Under a deal announced on June 22, Stagecoach will pay £138m for the 59% venture capital equity interests in Virgin Rail, and a further £20m for loan stock at par. It will then transfer 10% of the equity free of charge, giving Virgin Group control of Virgin Rail. Stagecoach would retain the remaining 49%.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/117517.stm

Stagecoach is paying a total of £158m for the stake in the group from the venture capitalists who helped fund Mr Branson's purchase of several train operating companies as part of the privatisation of British Rail.

Haven't found a list of who the venture capital partners were, but the articles imply there were a group of them and not just one.

 

[Stats]

Haven't found a list of who the venture capital partners were, but the articles imply there were a group of them and not just one.

They were Texas Pacific Group, JP Morgan, Bankers Trust and Electra Fleming
www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/ab...rail-operation-into-virgin-territory-1.338791

. The four venture capitalists behind Virgin Rail, namely TPG, Bankers Trust, JP Morgan and Electra Fleming, hold 59% of it. Stagecoach is buying them out in full - paying #138m for their equity and #20m for their loan stock - and passing on 10% of the company to Virgin Group for a nominal sum.

 

[higthomas]

It will then transfer 10% of the equity free of charge, giving Virgin Group control of Virgin Rail

Why would it do that?

 

[Murph]

Why would it do that?

That's obviously just one part of a much larger shuffling of money and ownership around. It's not particularly unusual behaviour in mergers and acquisitions for something like that to happen. The contracts will have been written such that it's a necessary condition for them to give away that 10% to VR, in addition to payment, and it must be something that VR desire.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They were Texas Pacific Group, JP Morgan, Bankers Trust and Electra Fleming
www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/ab...rail-operation-into-virgin-territory-1.338791

Not Warren Buffet then, or Berkshire anything.
But it's interesting that Virgin Group only owned 41% of Virgin Rail Group when it bid for and won the WC and XC franchises.
Branson was the largest shareholder, and controlled the brand, but was not in majority control of the company until the Stagecoach deal was done.

 

[Class319361]

Same stock as now until 2019 when they will get IEP

I did read up somewhere in Glasgow that the 390 pendolinos may be used on the ECML and a WCML to ECML link may be built through Derby..

Anyway back to the question they said that a possible fleet of 222 meridian voyagers may be reduced to 3 car sets for the Harrogate to hull services with possible 317 operating the Newark North gate services from kings cross and the 91 and 82 DVT will be transferred to AGA on Norwich services in 2025...

Subject on fleet list for Virgin stagecoach East Coast franchise
the 800 fleet on the GWML may be cascaded to the Virgin franchise from Euston to Blackpool...

The Bounds Green depot will be widened and built three track bigger for the new stock...

Also Inverness to kings cross will be fully electrified so will Aberdeen to kings cross will be electrified to 25kv

 

[cjmillsnun]

It would appear that you are incorrect - the company which runs the trains is indeed West Coast Trains Limited.

From what I can piece together, this is how it goes:

1. The Virgin Group creates a subsidiary company 'Virgin Rail Group Limited' for the purpose of getting into the reprivatised rail market.
2. Virgin Rail Group bids for and wins the InterCity West Coast and InterCity CrossCountry franchises.
3. Virgin Rail Group creates the subsidiary companies 'West Coast Trains Limited' and 'Cross Country Trains Limited' (i.e. the two Train Operating Companies) to run the two franchises, because they must be operationally separate and to allow Virgin Rail Group to pursue other interests as well as the two franchises already won - such as the high speed rail project (a project which never got off the ground) in Australia which they submitted a bid for in 1998.
4. Virgin Enterprises Limited (the part of the Virgin Group which owns and licenses the various Virgin trademarks) creates the trademarks for Virgin Trains, and licenses them to West Coast Trains and Cross Country Trains.
5. West Coast Trains and Cross Country Trains commence operations using the Virgin Trains brand name for public purposes, and the companies commonly get referred to by the informal names 'Virgin West Coast' or 'Virgin Cross Country' during the time both companies are operating.
6. The Virgin Group sells a 49% stake in Virgin Rail Group to Stagecoach late in 1998.
7. Cross Country Trains (aka Virgin Cross Country) ceases operations, leaving West Coast Trains as the only train operating company owned by Virgin Rail Group.

It would appear that the way it goes with the East Coast franchise will be similar - I would be happy to be corrected on the details:

1. The company 'Inter City Railways Limited' is created. Regardless of the mechanism by which it was created (not sure if one company created it and sold a stake to the other, or if it was a joint venutre from the start) it ends up being a company owned 10% by the Virgin Group and 90% by Stagecoach - just as Virgin Rail Group is owned 51/49 by the same parent companies.
2. Inter City Railways bids for and wins the InterCity East Coast franchise - just as Virgin Rail Group won the other franchises in the 1990s.
3. Inter City Railways will either purchase East Coast Main Line Company Limited from Directly Operated Railways or create a new subsidiary company which will purchase the assets of ECMLC Ltd. This company (whether ECMLC or a new subsidiary) will be the Train Operating Company.
4. This company will trade under the brand name Virgin Trains or the new trademark 'Virgin Trains East Coast', either of which would be owned by Virgin Enterprises Limited and licensed to the train operating company.

Thus as the new train operating company will trade under the Virgin Trains name, it is correct to say the trains will be run by Virgin, unlike what 455 Driver claims early in this thread. It will not be correct in any way to say that the trains will be operated by Stagecoach, only to say that they will be operated by a company whose parent company is majority owned by Stagecoach.

It is possible that the Virgin Group will attempt to become a private operator on the California High Speed Rail network in the future if it goes to a franchise-style operation instead of being fully owned by the state government as Amtrak California is currently - but early indications are that it will stay government-owned with a new name not linked to Amtrak. If such a bid was done in conjunction with Stagecoach, it could well be that their US rail operations do get run by a new subsidiary of Virgin Rail Group (the 51/49 company) or Inter City Railways (the 10/90 company) or under a new company with a different ownership split.

A slight correction from your links to Companies house.

West Coast Trains Ltd was originally called InterCity West Coast Ltd and was set up by British Rail prior to privatisation.

Crosscountry Trains Ltd was originally Cross Country Trains Ltd and again was set up by BR prior to privatisation.

Also 455Driver is correct. Stagecoach will have a controlling interest in Inter City Railways Ltd. Therefore to all intents and purposes Stagecoach will be running Inter City Railways Ltd t/a Virgin East Coast.

 

[221129]

I did read up somewhere in Glasgow that the 390 pendolinos may be used on the ECML and a WCML to ECML link may be built through Derby..

And where would these 390s come from?

 

[Darandio]

I did read up somewhere in Glasgow that the 390 pendolinos may be used on the ECML and a WCML to ECML link may be built through Derby..

Anyway back to the question they said that a possible fleet of 222 meridian voyagers may be reduced to 3 car sets for the Harrogate to hull services with possible 317 operating the Newark North gate services from kings cross and the 91 and 82 DVT will be transferred to AGA on Norwich services in 2025...

Subject on fleet list for Virgin stagecoach East Coast franchise
the 800 fleet on the GWML may be cascaded to the Virgin franchise from Euston to Blackpool...

The Bounds Green depot will be widened and built three track bigger for the new stock...

Also Inverness to kings cross will be fully electrified so will Aberdeen to kings cross will be electrified to 25kv

You dreamed all of that up in one go?

 

[Suraggu]

I did read up somewhere in Glasgow that the 390 pendolinos may be used on the ECML and a WCML to ECML link may be built through Derby..

Anyway back to the question they said that a possible fleet of 222 meridian voyagers may be reduced to 3 car sets for the Harrogate to hull services with possible 317 operating the Newark North gate services from kings cross and the 91 and 82 DVT will be transferred to AGA on Norwich services in 2025...

Subject on fleet list for Virgin stagecoach East Coast franchise
the 800 fleet on the GWML may be cascaded to the Virgin franchise from Euston to Blackpool...

The Bounds Green depot will be widened and built three track bigger for the new stock...

Also Inverness to kings cross will be fully electrified so will Aberdeen to kings cross will be electrified to 25kv

I'm pretty sure you made all of that up, or became a troll to mess with peoples minds.

 

[Hyphen]

Virgin Rail Group creates the subsidiary companies 'West Coast Trains Limited' and 'Cross Country Trains Limited' (i.e. the two Train Operating Companies) to run the two franchises, because they must be operationally separate and to allow Virgin Rail Group to pursue other interests as well as the two franchises already won - such as the high speed rail project (a project which never got off the ground) in Australia which they submitted a bid for in 1998.

Those links are very interesting... anyone know why CrossCountry Trains Ltd (it dropped the space some time between creation and dissolution) was only wound up in November 2014, 7 years after they lost the franchise? Or why West Coast Trains Ltd took out four mortgages (of which 2 seem to have been paid back)?

 

[BananaRepublic]

......Also 455Driver is correct. Stagecoach will have a controlling interest in Inter City Railways Ltd. Therefore to all intents and purposes Stagecoach will be running Inter City Railways Ltd t/a Virgin East Coast.

"...to all intents and purposes..." has got nothing to do with it. Stagecoach will not be running anything. The companies that it has an interest in, controlling or otherwise, run their TOC's.
Stagecoach do not run SWT or EMT either; they are run by companies 100% owned by Stagecoach.

 

[Suraggu]

DfT spokesperson Claire Perry has stated on the record that all 44 EC trains will be returned to the leasing companies and the next East Coast Franchisee use 65 new IEP trains but they will be supplemented by 6 High Speed Intercity trains which is up to the franchisee choice.

Now remember kids All Class 390's are spoken for so don't get excited. Porterbrook have said the EMT HST fleet will not be upgraded to PRM-TSI compliance due on 01/01/2020.

Time to place your bets.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Now remember kids All Class 390's are spoken for so don't get excited. Porterbrook have said the EMT HST fleet will not be upgraded to PRM-TSI compliance due on 01/01/2020.

? Don't you mean class 91s? AFAIK EMT don't use Pendolinos

 

[MCR247]

I don't think he was suggesting that EMT use pendolinos?

 

[cjmillsnun]

6 high speed intercity trains. Hmmm

I predict they will sign a lease for 91/Mk4s. From a maintenance point of view, better the devil you know.

 

[Murph]

6 high speed intercity trains. Hmmm

I predict they will sign a lease for 91/Mk4s. From a maintenance point of view, better the devil you know.

Yup, assuming that the need is all under the wires, that seems to make the most sense. It would also make longer term sense (whether or not longer term is actually planned, as it sometimes happens without being planned), as they are 140mph sets, like the IEP, for if we ever finally manage to enable 140mph on the ECML.

Other than HSTs, what other 125mph+ proper IC-class trains would be available to them? I don't see 22x as being an appropriate choice, as those should really be filling the need for secondary route DEMUs. 390s, I really can't see those straying off the WCML in the short to medium term, and I think all the other IC-class 3xx units are pretty much spoken for?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Other than HSTs, what other 125mph+ proper IC-class trains would be available to them? I don't see 22x as being an appropriate choice, as those should really be filling the need for secondary route DEMUs. 390s, I really can't see those straying off the WCML in the short to medium term, and I think all the other IC-class 3xx units are pretty much spoken for?

Modify some Mk4 DVTs for AAR and you could use class 67s with the Mk4s.

22x I just don't see being used for secondary routes. They are known for being very thirsty for a multiple unit and would require reconfiguration to increase seat density, which at the moment means a 10 car 222 has less seats, 384 Std and 100 First - total 484 than a 9 car 159 (510 Std and between 69 and 72 First - depending on the combination of 159/0s and 159/1s - not to mention between 39 and 57 flip down seats - again depending on the combination of 159/0s and 159/1s. Giving a total of between 618 and 639 seats.

They're also heavy and as such don't get sprinter differential speed limits, meaning a 15x or turbostar can go faster on the same line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah Its interesting what Porterbrook said about the units, that its almost impossible to get spares for the Paxman engines with them having to source them from Australia and use MAN truck parts as well. And just keeping the bodies in one piece was also becoming more and more expensive as they aged such that unless someone desperately wanted them and was willing to offer a lot of money to keep them running there wouldn't be any point in modifying them or keeping them in service.

Engines aside you wonder what condition the others are in.

 

[swt_passenger]

DfT spokesperson Claire Perry...

She's an MP, and a 'Parliamentary under Secretary of State at the DfT', not a 'spokesperson'...

 

[Suraggu]

She's an MP, and a 'Parliamentary under Secretary of State at the DfT', not a 'spokesperson'...

I'm going from the quote found in a paper that's it, not really bothered if she is an MP or not.