FGW Buy before you board policy

[Clip]

TBH, given what warrants are used for, I think they could be replaced with a system based on ToD/remote ordering. And RTVs would be better replaced with an actual (cheque or BACS) refund.

Neil

this would be a very good idea.

You state this as fact, I disagree with you. The railway says cash is accepted. What else I happen to have is irrelevant. I won't even produce anything else to any inspector, as it's none of his business and he has no rights to conduct a search. If I wish to pay cash and I have not been offered an opportunity to do so on reaching the barrier, I will produce the fare in cash. Nothing else is relevant.

I would love to see this in Court. I am pretty confident the TOC would lose. Shame I don't have time.

Neil

No I didn't. I said MY VIEWS on the issue I never stated anything as FACT.

The reply could just be because I can't afford the interest charges, and the railway would have to accept that it was unable to take payment at the right time with a legitimate payment method.

What interest charges? Do you understand how credit cards work because this post suggests you don't.

Oh well, as usual the posts on this thread are becoming more and more hypothetical, while ignoring the elephant in the room - YOU HAVE TO BUY A TICKET!

Indeed they have with some really extreme scenarios but hey, maybe we shouldn't give our input because remember the enthusiast knows more about any of this than us within the industry so Im just going to bow out because it is getting rather stupid now and we still have not got an answer as to who is going to pay for the extra 20,000+ staff we need to have ticket sellers at each station and on every service.

 

[RPI]

IMO, time for fare dodging to be decriminalised, replaced with a semi-civil structure of penalties based on those used by Councils for parking enforcement (the actual levels of which to be set to minimise losses through evasion), and a genuinely independent national appeals body.

Neil

so people like the city banker caught at Cannon Street should not have to face criminal charges?

 

[Bletchleyite]

]What interest charges? Do you understand how credit cards work because this post suggests you don't

He may be referring to a *debit* card on which an overdraft would be incurred if spending took place, the balance being on say £0.01. In that case, interest applies immediately.

This may well apply to someone who takes the traditional approach of drawing their entire wage/pension/benefits out on the day they are paid and spending cash only. There are loads of people who do this, though some of them may well not then carry the debit card. Should they be treated differently if they do? In my view no, the same rule has to apply to everyone - either cash is accepted for travel from that station, or it is not.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so people like the city banker caught at Cannon Street should not have to face criminal charges?

No, but he would, just as if he had repeatedly parked without paying, have to pay a civil penalty for each case, which would be a very substantial sum of money indeed. This, if he didn't voluntarily cough up, would be pursued via the Courts.

That said, because he had used the Oyster to circumvent the barriers, a regular fraud charge may well be applicable as well as the damages for unpaid fares. That's not quite the same as arriving at your destination not having paid but equally being quite open that you have not paid.

Neil

 

[Parallel]

Interesting about what others have said about FGWs TVMs being cash and card South of Bridgwater - Is that really true? Elsewhere in a west, the ticketing system is a bit of a shambles, with every station having seemingly different facilities. I.e. One of my local stations has a ticket office but it is often closed in the afternoon or random times between shift changes and no TVM (it kept getting smashed a few years ago and so got removed) yet is a penalty fares station. There are also non-penalty fare stations about with high passenger loadings too on the same lines so what's stopping someone lying?

How are RPIs, guards, barrier staff or ticket examiners going to know if the office was closed for half an hour earlier in the day or if a particular TVM at a station is out of service if it hasn't been reported? Also, I see people board from other stations where there are TVMs but they are still sold a full range of tickets because the machines don't seem to be considered a first opportunity to pay in these parts (Although some are open to the elements and are out of service a lot) despite being a penalty fare station... Some stations have both an office and a TVM, some have one or the other, some have none. And on top of that one might be closed and the other faulty - How is anyone really going to know the "up to date" situation of every station in the surrounding area, more so with the medium and small stations with no barriers.


You will always get passengers who will try to avoid paying their fare but my phone is full of "sorry this office is closed" or TVM "out of service" photos, which I take at the start of my journey if I haven't been able to purchase a ticket, should I ever be challenged. Though I only ever have been challenged once!

As penalty fare stations mean passengers have to purchase their tickets at the first available opportunity, do passengers that board at stations that are not in the penalty fares scheme mean they don't have to buy at the first available opportunity? What would happen if they didn't? Are they liable for penalty anyway?

Just some food for thought. One standard procedure across the whole company would be good. I'd like to see more TVMs that accept both cash and card and are more robust to resist vandalism, and are less exposed to the elements, and just faster, better maintenance. It won't happen in the near future because I can't imagine it being very cost effective...

 

[RPI]

Interesting about what others have said about FGWs TVMs being cash and card South of Bridgwater - Is that really true? Elsewhere in a west, the ticketing system is a bit of a shambles, with every station having seemingly different facilities. I.e. One of my local stations has a ticket office but it is often closed in the afternoon or random times between shift changes and no TVM (it kept getting smashed a few years ago and so got removed) yet is a penalty fares station. There are also non-penalty fare stations about with high passenger loadings too on the same lines so what's stopping someone lying?

How are RPIs, guards, barrier staff or ticket examiners going to know if the office was closed for half an hour earlier in the day or if a particular TVM at a station is out of service if it hasn't been reported? Also, I see people board from other stations where there are TVMs but they are still sold a full range of tickets because the machines don't seem to be considered a first opportunity to pay in these parts (Although some are open to the elements and are out of service a lot) despite being a penalty fare station... Some stations have both an office and a TVM, some have one or the other, some have none. And on top of that one might be closed and the other faulty - How is anyone really going to know the "up to date" situation of every station in the surrounding area, more so with the medium and small stations with no barriers.


You will always get passengers who will try to avoid paying their fare but my phone is full of "sorry this office is closed" or TVM "out of service" photos, which I take at the start of my journey if I haven't been able to purchase a ticket, should I ever be challenged. Though I only ever have been challenged once!

As penalty fare stations mean passengers have to purchase their tickets at the first available opportunity, do passengers that board at stations that are not in the penalty fares scheme mean they don't have to buy at the first available opportunity? What would happen if they didn't? Are they liable for penalty anyway?

Just some food for thought. One standard procedure across the whole company would be good. I'd like to see more TVMs that accept both cash and card and are more robust to resist vandalism, and are less exposed to the elements, and just faster, better maintenance. It won't happen in the near future because I can't imagine it being very cost effective...

In the west area (Taunton downwards) PF'S have been enforced for nearly 4 years, common sense is used where necessary, a station that has a TVM that accepts cash and card is treated the same as a staffed station, if the ticket isn't available from the TVM then we sell the correct ticket on the train, but all of the locals know that it's best practice to make themselves known to the guard straight away if they have been unable to purchase their desired ticket. I'll be honest, I struggle to believe the contents of the original post in this thread as after 1800 all of the local RPI'S will willing sell a Devon evening ranger if asked for one if the customer has traveled from a station with no ticket office, believe me, I have first hand knowledge of this process.

As an aside, Topsham we only issue PF'S in the Exeter direction, as there is only one TVM and it's on the Exeter bound platform, anyone familiar with the station will know that the level crossing barriers sometimes go down a few minutes before the train, therefore we don't expect passengers to miss their train to get a ticket, BUT because we generally have a good relationship with the rail users group etc most people there will get a ticket if they have time, being fair about things encourages respect from both parties.

There's a lot of emphasis on the most obscure scenarios in this thread, when we all know that in obscure circumstances 99% of revenue staff will make a balanced common sense decision, and on top of all of that there is the appeals service.

 

[Fare-Cop]

maybe we shouldn't give our input because remember the enthusiast knows more about any of this than us within the industry so Im just going to bow out because it is getting rather stupid now.

Exactly so.

 

[RPI]

To add, the comment about a standard procedure across FGW, well there is, if you travel from Paddington or if you travel from Chapleton, it is the responsibility of the traveller to buy their ticket at the earliest opportunity, at Paddington that would be from the facilities available at Chapleton it would be the conductor on the train.

All staff are issued BlackBerry devices that have Tyrell check which displays messages about TVM failures and ticket office closures and even issues such as TVM'S being faulty ie only taking a specific payment type, even down to whether the machines are low on change, we also use BlackBerry Messenger groups to let colleagues know about issues.

 

[Starmill]

There's a lot of emphasis on the most obscure scenarios in this thread, when we all know that in obscure circumstances 99% of revenue staff will make a balanced common sense decision, and on top of all of that there is the appeals service.

Maybe in your area revenue staff can be relied upon to behave in this way. However, it is highly disingenuous of you to give the impression that staff nationally will always be so understanding.

 

[RPI]

Maybe in your area revenue staff can be relied upon to behave in this way. However, it is highly disingenuous of you to give the impression that staff nationally will always be so understanding.

Agreed, but this thread related to an alleged incident in my area so my point stands.

 

[yorkie]

RPI - thanks for that; are you saying that FGW do not enforce Condition 3 and either the RPI was mistaken or the passenger was mistaken in what the RPI said?

At some TOCs (e.g. Northern) the policy is what you said which is to sell the full range of fares if the origin didn't sell it, and instruct people not to buy part-fare tickets (as they can't excess them into Rovers/Rangers/Travelcards).

While at other TOCs (e.g. EMT) the policy is that passengers comply with Condition 3, and when an excess to a Rover/Ranger/Travelcard proves impossible, this can cause big problems.

It would be very useful if we can start to compile a list of policies for each TOC.

 

[bb21]

...and on top of all of that there is the appeals service.

I was nodding along with you in agreement until this sentence.

Does FGW use a different appeals body to RPSS and IPFAS? If not, they are about as useful as a bunch of monkeys and their independence is highly questionable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While at other TOCs (e.g. EMT) the policy is that passengers comply with Condition 3, and when an excess to a Rover/Ranger/Travelcard proves impossible, this can cause big problems.

Is EMT's policy that such tickets are "staffed station only", then?

Could a solution, if adding them to machines is too complicated, be to add PERTIS functionality to the machines? If the machine doesn't have your Rover/Ranger, you select you want one of these and pay the price of the cheapest one that would be valid from that station, then cash it in?

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does FGW use a different appeals body to RPSS and IPFAS? If not, they are about as useful as a bunch of monkeys and their independence is highly questionable.

I'm not convinced a twenty quid Penalty Fare is really the issue. The issue is people being dragged through the Court system on sometimes rather questionable grounds. This is one reason why I propose decriminalising except in cases where a "standard" fraud charge would stick (i.e. very extreme, deliberate evasion cases, like the use of falsified tickets). The rest would be handled like parking, though ideally with a Government-run independent appeals board like there is for parking.

In the end, a wrongful criminal record (or even record of a Court appearance, in some cases, e.g. roles requiring an enhanced DBS check) could wreck someone's life, whereas a couple of hundred quid's civil penalty would be more proportionate and could always be paid back if found to be unfair.

Neil

 

[bb21]

I'm not convinced a twenty quid Penalty Fare is really the issue. The issue is people being dragged through the Court system on sometimes rather questionable grounds. This is one reason why I propose decriminalising except in cases where a "standard" fraud charge would stick (i.e. very extreme, deliberate evasion cases, like the use of falsified tickets). The rest would be handled like parking, though ideally with a Government-run independent appeals board like there is for parking.

I was wondering about that, but since Penalty Fare appears to have been mentioned, and that there were no other "appeals" service I am aware of, I thought I better double-check.

I had no wish to partake in the debate as we have been through this all before and it didn't really get anywhere.

 

[455driver]

I had no wish to partake in the debate as we have been through this all before and it didn't really get anywhere.

Yeah, but it's funny how the antis come up with some obscure scenario about their 90 year old pregnant granny being rushed to hospital because her parachute failed to open and them needing to get across the Country in 5 minutes so couldn't buy their 20 portion split ticket at the machine so should be allowed to travel, just to make a point that is irrelevant in 99.9% of real life situations.
It was funny a few years ago, but now the its just sad.

Oh and when did it become the passenger's choice whether to ignore an opportunity to pay simply because they want to use a different payment method? All the wibble about bank charges etc is irrelevant because in 99.9% of cases that won't apply so perhaps the antis could answer the question with facts and not rhetoric!
It is the passenger's responsibility to buy before travel!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh and when did it become the passenger's choice whether to ignore an opportunity to pay simply because they want to use a different payment method?

That *is* the policy on a number of TOCs.

It is the passenger's responsibility to buy before travel!

If it was, then the rule would be like it is on some coach operations (Megabus I think? Fairly sure Nat Ex drivers can write out tickets if they know they have space), or on Manchester Metrolink, where if you have no ticket/authority to travel[1] *regardless of reason* you are not allowed to travel.

What I ask for is some consistency. Either cash is accepted or it isn't. Either you must use the machine or you need not. Either a ticket is compulsory or it isn't.

[1] If the machine is broken each passenger must phone customer services to confirm this and obtain a reference number to give if checked. Could this be an option if there is a help point at these stations? Push the button, confirm the fare with customer services, and wave your cash at the CCTV so they can see you have it?

Neil

 

[Class377]

I really do think the vast majority of these issues would be solved by having a cash & card TVM at every station (at most places, they could easily recoup their costs quite easily) and telling people, if they couldn't buy their super-cheap loophole ticket from it, they should simply buy a ticket from there to their destination (perhaps we could call this an A-to-B ticket, I know it's a revolutionary concept), and if they send the ticket and a covering email to FGW's web team within a certain period of time (a week?) explaining they needed a cheaper ticket but couldn't buy it, get an automatic refund?

It would only need a few new machines to be fitted and perhaps a bigger web support team, but would comply with condition 3 and quite happily have no problems for the vast majority of the travelling public (who only want a return to their destination) whilst giving no excuse to fare dodgers who want to try on an excuse about not being able to buy a ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The thing is, cash-accepting vending machines have a larger break-in/vandalism rate and someone has to go round collecting the cash, which costs.

Thus, the TOCs want to have their cake and eat it, and IMO should not be allowed to.

Edit: I also see no reason a ticket machine at a station should not issue all walk-up tickets, whether single, return or Ranger/Rover, valid for immediate travel from that station. Again, if it doesn't, the TOC is trying to have its cake and eat it. I don't think the TOC should have to cater for split tickets etc, though often machines will if you order them online and ToD is available, which it should be in as many locations as possible, either via a fixed-line or mobile connection (that means you, Merseyrail).

Neil

 

[Flamingo]

The thing is, cash-accepting vending machines have a larger break-in/vandalism rate and someone has to go round collecting the cash, which costs.

Thus, the TOCs want to have their cake and eat it, and IMO should not be allowed to.

Neil

Given that te extra costs would eventually be added to the ticket price, it's not the TOC's that would be paying...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given that te extra costs would eventually be added to the ticket price, it's not the TOC's that would be paying...

The extra costs of fare-dodging *already are* being added to the ticket price. If the cost of operating those machines properly are lower than the costs of fare-dodging, then that's a reduced cost for everyone. If they are higher, find another solution, e.g. always barrier the majority[1] destination station and allow payment on arrival.

What TOCs should not do, and are doing, is to disadvantage honest passengers wishing to use an accepted method of payment just because they cannot be bothered to provide a proper means of accepting at that station.

[1] On most branch lines there is comparatively little travel between the local stations - it's mostly to/from the railhead. Thus barrier the railhead and pay on arrival and you'll get most of it. Just don't go prosecuting people who intended to pay - always better a false negative than a false positive, IMO.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What TOCs should not do, and are doing, is to disadvantage honest passengers wishing to use an accepted method of payment just because they cannot be bothered to provide a proper means of accepting at that station.

Actually, I'll go one further. TOCs are also misleading passengers into being prosecuted, because convention over many years is that it's OK to pay on the train on branch lines.

If the policy is that if you have *any* accepted method of payment on you, you must use it, i.e. that if you have cash and card, and want to use cash but have your card with you you must use it, there should be a clear, prominent sign indicating that in simple language, ideally on a gate or barrier you have to pass to get to the train. Then such people will know that when travelling by train it's best to leave the card at home. Stop relying on "opportunity to pay" and start stating it explicitly.

Example:

===
WARNING!

The ticket machine at this station accepts only credit/debit cards. If you are carrying a credit/debit card, you MUST purchase a ticket before you travel or you WILL be liable to a Penalty Fare or prosecution.

You may pay cash on board or at the destination if that is the ONLY method of payment you are carrying with you on this journey.

If your specific ticket is not available from the machine and are carrying a credit/debit card on this journey, you MUST buy a ticket to your first point of interchange and rebook or exchange the ticket there. Again if you do not you WILL be liable to a Penalty Fare or prosecution.
===

As it is, it's somewhere between confusing and plain misleading. Or is the TOC scared a truthful notice like that might upset people and get Press attention?

Neil

 

[Elecman]

I seriously doubt a TOC could enforce the requirement to use a card if you intend paying by cash. Wether I am carrying a card or not is irrelevant to a TOC providing I am carrying sufficient cash to pay my fare at the FIRST available point during the journey.

 

[island]

I seriously doubt a TOC could enforce the requirement to use a card if you intend paying by cash. Wether I am carrying a card or not is irrelevant to a TOC providing I am carrying sufficient cash to pay my fare at the FIRST available point during the journey.

And back around the circle we go...

 

[Flamingo]

The extra costs of fare-dodging *already are* being added to the ticket price. If the cost of operating those machines properly are lower than the costs of fare-dodging, then that's a reduced cost for everyone. If they are higher, find another solution, e.g. always barrier the majority[1] destination station and allow payment on arrival.

What TOCs should not do, and are doing, is to disadvantage honest passengers wishing to use an accepted method of payment just because they cannot be bothered to provide a proper means of accepting at that station.

[1] On most branch lines there is comparatively little travel between the local stations - it's mostly to/from the railhead. Thus barrier the railhead and pay on arrival and you'll get most of it. Just don't go prosecuting people who intended to pay - always better a false negative than a false positive, IMO.

Neil

ATW tried this in a South Wales. It was the reason they were selling nearly three quarters of a million tickets to and from Grangetown every year...

 

[Class377]

Big problem with this idea is it gives fare dodgers an opportunity - have a few quid in cash on them and they think they have a watertight excuse to avoid paying until challenged.

 

[RPI]

To answer a few points, it is accepted practice at FGW for retail staff to sell a ticket that cannot be purchased at the station, BUT there is no official easment for condition 3, that way we (staff) advise and encourage such passengers to make themselves known at the earliest opportunity, ie seek us out, that way it would still be possible to PF someone who continually used it as an excuse but none of us have had to do it yet, and it comes with experience to spot someone extracting the urine.

This allows us to use our own judgment and apply the rules sensibly, same goes for groupsave which also isn't available from FGW TVM'S. It is generally accepted that PF'S aren't issued from card only TVM stations for a simple no ticket, but it is a useful tool for dealing with issues such as adults on child tickets etc.

The West RPI team is quite close and work fairly as a team as best as possible, a lot of them have been on the railway for a number of years and so experienced, yes, we don't get it right 100% of the time but compared to the "computer says no" attitudes of the RPI'S of some other TOC'S we like to take a lot of pride in what we do.

This thread has made me a little less anonymous than before but I think it's important to have views from all parties, one thing that is important to note is that in the West, we have very little knowledge of what our colleagues in the East get up to, mainly because we are managed locally and stick to our "patch".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also its important to show that just because we are in an enforcement role, doesn't mean we "don't do customer service", every time I issue a PF, or do an MG11 or even sell a full single, I always aim to retain the customer, how you might ask? People who say they were late, I give them prices of season tickets and explain the benefits of not having to queue up every morning, I'll offer to then advance date tickets for the rest of the week, offer advice on railcards etc.... because "Revenue Protection" isn't just protecting a fare, but it's about protecting all revenue due to the company, if that passenger never travels again after having a PF then that's revenue lost, there is the bigger picture. Admittedly some people don't want to hear it. Very often people will thank me after issuing a PF and some even apologise for wasting my time!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Using the Hanborugh example above, as an RPI myself, I would be asking why the customer had not bought one from the conductor on the train, as every train on that route has one.

Cotswold Line conductors are a friendly, efficient bunch but you can't necessarily rely on finding one between Hanborough and Oxford. It's an eight-minute journey, and certain trains are often full and standing.

TBH I don't see why the cash payment facility has been disabled at Hanborough and Charlbury. Evesham sure, but little West Oxfordshire villages aren't exactly hotbeds of crime.

 

[Rich McLean]

Cotswold Line conductors are a friendly, efficient bunch but you can't necessarily rely on finding one between Hanborough and Oxford. It's an eight-minute journey, and certain trains are often full and standing.

TBH I don't see why the cash payment facility has been disabled at Hanborough and Charlbury. Evesham sure, but little West Oxfordshire villages aren't exactly hotbeds of crime.

A finite amount of staff (only 2?) patrol the halts along the line, so the chances of it getting emptied regular is very difficult. I suppose it would require an additional staff member authorised to collect revenue to do a couple trips per day to empty the cash box. Currently the Station Manager for the Cotswold line would replenish the ticket stock when it gets low, which they can check remotely

 

[Doctor Fegg]

True for Hanborough. Charlbury is staffed Mon-Sat morning, though, and has a fair amount of afternoon and Sunday custom that needs to use the TVM.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ATW tried this in a South Wales. It was the reason they were selling nearly three quarters of a million tickets to and from Grangetown every year...

Fair point. On some branches flat or zonal fares may be an approach that will make this work, though.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also its important to show that just because we are in an enforcement role, doesn't mean we "don't do customer service", every time I issue a PF, or do an MG11 or even sell a full single, I always aim to retain the customer, how you might ask? People who say they were late, I give them prices of season tickets and explain the benefits of not having to queue up every morning, I'll offer to then advance date tickets for the rest of the week, offer advice on railcards etc.... because "Revenue Protection" isn't just protecting a fare, but it's about protecting all revenue due to the company, if that passenger never travels again after having a PF then that's revenue lost, there is the bigger picture. Admittedly some people don't want to hear it. Very often people will thank me after issuing a PF and some even apologise for wasting my time!

I must admit this gives a very professional impression, and is to be commended.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

Big problem with this idea is it gives fare dodgers an opportunity - have a few quid in cash on them and they think they have a watertight excuse to avoid paying until challenged.

I think you actually mean accepting cash as a valid payment method, and having card only TVMs gives people a valid reason to pay on board, which is their first opportunity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To answer a few points, it is accepted practice at FGW for retail staff to sell a ticket that cannot be purchased at the station, BUT there is no official easement for condition 3,...

In that case I'd still advise people wishing to buy Rovers/Rangers etc to buy a part fare ticket in accordance with Condition 3 because, as you say...

Admittedly this will make things more difficult for all parties, but it's safer than a threat of prosecution.

.... but compared to the "computer says no" attitudes of the RPI'S of some other TOC'S we like to take a lot of pride in what we do.

That's great to hear If only it was like that on, say, London Overground (!)

... we have very little knowledge of what our colleagues in the East get up to...

No worries, yes that makes sense, it sounds like the approaches are very different indeed!
-

Also its important to show that just because we are in an enforcement role, doesn't mean we "don't do customer service",...

Having seen you in action, I can confirm that

I must admit this gives a very professional impression, and is to be commended.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[RPI]

I think another important point is that yes we are slightly more relaxed in the west compared to other TOC'S but the clientele we deal with are also, like the majority of other revenue staff, I rely very heavily on the "attitude test" when deciding what action to take, generally the further west you go, the more often the test gets passed! On the rare occasions we do venture to that there London I do find myself becoming less lenient when people seem to have a much less cooperative attitude