Heart Of Wales Line

[adamt958]

I know they are adding an additional service to the H.O.W Line in may, in one direction that is. But is there any way (without replacing or putting in any new track work) that they could improve the time table?.

The only thing I though of is that Could services coming from Both the North and the South Terminate at Llandridnod Wells. with passengers for stations further up the line changing trains there. so there would be more services along the line in total? just a thought. Would allow for a lot more services along the line than the current four trains in each direction per day. especially with the various passing loops along the line.

 

[PHILIPE]

I know they are adding an additional service to the H.O.W Line in may, in one direction that is. But is there any way (without replacing or putting in any new track work) that they could improve the time table?.

The only thing I though of is that Could services coming from Both the North and the South Terminate at Llandridnod Wells. with passengers for stations further up the line changing trains there. so there would be more services along the line in total? just a thought. Would allow for a lot more services along the line than the current four trains in each direction per day. especially with the various passing loops along the line.

It is being improved as from May next year with additionals at the bottom end. There will be alterations to the current TT but not yet in the public domain.

 

[edwin_m]

I know they are adding an additional service to the H.O.W Line in may, in one direction that is. But is there any way (without replacing or putting in any new track work) that they could improve the time table?.

The only thing I though of is that Could services coming from Both the North and the South Terminate at Llandridnod Wells. with passengers for stations further up the line changing trains there. so there would be more services along the line in total? just a thought. Would allow for a lot more services along the line than the current four trains in each direction per day. especially with the various passing loops along the line.

Having spent a big chunk of this year on a timetable study for the route I can say it's a lot more difficult to timetable a service than it might at first appear. The spacing between loops is uneven, which doesn't matter at present with each train passing only one other and still wouldn't matter if there were extra short workings either end. But as soon as you plan extra through workings that pass other more than one through working on the way, the passing times just don't work unless one of them waits for a very long time somewhere.

I'm not quite sure what they are adopting and whether it was something from our study - I know some improvements were in the pipeline regardless.

Having short workings meeting at Llandrindod (or anywhere else) doesn't help much because timetable-wise they are just the same as end-to-end services that happen to pass at that place - just with the added inconvenience of everyone having to swap trains.

 

[merlodlliw]

I know they are adding an additional service to the H.O.W Line in may, in one direction that is. But is there any way (without replacing or putting in any new track work) that they could improve the time table?.

The only thing I though of is that Could services coming from Both the North and the South Terminate at Llandridnod Wells. with passengers for stations further up the line changing trains there. so there would be more services along the line in total? just a thought. Would allow for a lot more services along the line than the current four trains in each direction per day. especially with the various passing loops along the line.

The Sunday staff change over is at Llandod,however where will the 150s etc come from next May,has ATW say they have no spares and are about to take stock from other areas for teh Cambrian

 

[PHILIPE]

The Sunday staff change over is at Llandod,however where will the 150s etc come from next May,has ATW say they have no spares and are about to take stock from other areas for teh Cambrian

There are 2 weekday change overs at Llandod also and 2 at Llanwrtyd . There will be adjustments to the 153 diagrams to fit in. There is currently 1x150 on HOW Line, the rest being 153s, and no more would be required. Until I see a copy of the proposed timetable, I cannot foresee what the amended arrangements would entail.

 

[berneyarms]

The suggestion was that there will be additional early morning services at either end of the line:

- An extra early morning service from Carmarthen to Llandovery, which will then return to Swansea.
- An additional service at the northern end from Shrewsbury to Llandrindod and which would then return to Shrewsbury and operate through to Crewe.

As I understand it the four through services will be retained. I suspect that they will be interworked with the set that is on Shrewsbury/Crewe to deliver the full service without needing an additional set.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The suggestion was that there will be additional early morning services at either end of the line:

- An extra early morning service from Carmarthen to Llandovery, which will then return to Swansea.
- An additional service at the northern end from Shrewsbury to Llandrindod and which would then return to Shrewsbury and operate through to Crewe.

As I understand it the four through services will be retained. I suspect that they will be interworked with the set that is on Shrewsbury/Crewe to deliver the full service without needing an additional set.

Similar summary to drafts Ive seen

 

[berneyarms]

You will find in all probability that the four through services will all be retimed given that the new early services will replace the existing very early departures from either end.

 

[merlodlliw]

Will this require extra staff to run the services?

 

[PHILIPE]

Definitely require 2 additional crews, Carmarthen at the bottom and Salop at the top.

 

[berneyarms]

Will this require extra staff to run the services? .

Definitely require 2 additional crews, Carmarthen at the bottom and Salop at the top.

I would imagine it would involve some rejigging of existing rosters rather than extra staff on depot.

 

[swcovas]

Having spent a big chunk of this year on a timetable study for the route I can say it's a lot more difficult to timetable a service than it might at first appear. The spacing between loops is uneven, which doesn't matter at present with each train passing only one other and still wouldn't matter if there were extra short workings either end. But as soon as you plan extra through workings that pass other more than one through working on the way, the passing times just don't work unless one of them waits for a very long time somewhere.

I'm not quite sure what they are adopting and whether it was something from our study - I know some improvements were in the pipeline regardless.

Having short workings meeting at Llandrindod (or anywhere else) doesn't help much because timetable-wise they are just the same as end-to-end services that happen to pass at that place - just with the added inconvenience of everyone having to swap trains.

I agree there would be little point in terminating trains at Llandrindod but as regards the passing loops it is possible to improve the service. The current tt has been virtually unchanged for over 20 years but prior to this there was, IMO, a pretty adequate tt of 5 through trains plus an extra (well patronised) SO working from Llandovery to Swansea with an early evening return working. Of course back then there probably weren't the same constraints on stock availability but as regards infrastructure the 5 passing loops would be sufficient to handle a much more frequent service. At present only 2 of the loops are used on a daily basis.

I believe an announcement will be made by Transport Minister Edwina Hart in February regarding the new tt.
I think that the new May 2015 will follow the recomendations made in the Jacobs Consultancy done 5 years ago which will see deps from Swansea at about 0810, 1115, 1515, 1820 plus a Carmarthen to Llandovery train arriving in Llandovery at about 0710 then returning to Swansea.

Southbound from Shrewsbury deps at about: 0800, 1210, 1510 1815 plus dep to Llandrindod arriving at 0635 returning at 0645 to Crewe.
This tt will still just use the loops at Llandrindod and Llanwrtyd and whilst not providing an ideal tt will certainly give a better "spread" of services and an early arrival at Swansea the lack of which has been much criticised in the past.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree there would be little point in terminating trains at Llandrindod but as regards the passing loops it is possible to improve the service. The current tt has been virtually unchanged for over 20 years but prior to this there was, IMO, a pretty adequate tt of 5 through trains plus an extra (well patronised) SO working from Llandovery to Swansea with an early evening return working. Of course back then there probably weren't the same constraints on stock availability but as regards infrastructure the 5 passing loops would be sufficient to handle a much more frequent service. At present only 2 of the loops are used on a daily basis.

Do you have a timetable for this service by any chance? Five trains suggests to me that possibly they passed each other on the double tracks either end. This would remove the constraint I mentioned of uneven loop spacing, but lead to poor stock utilisation unless they interworked with another route.

 

[PHILIPE]

I have (officially when working) looked at Timetables on the HOW Line and this what happens:-

Train leaves Knighton southbound and train leaves Llanwrtyd northbound, having crossed there, but they don't tie up at Llandrindod Wells requiring one train having to wait a long time for the other to arrive and cross.
For while a few years ago, the loops at Llandeilo and Knighton were out of action due to defective pointwork needing to be replaced. As there were no trains booked to cross there, Network Rail didn't bother about replacing. I t was subsequently done following pressure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mike Vaughan in his letter, said if VT did not run the service,ATW would step in, however this is not good enough and requires someone to check if it is running,the previous timetables showed this ATW 2022 out of Chester to Shrewsbury via Wrexham,this was put on due to over 100 stuck on Chester station for up to two hours.ATW put this service on because VT told them it would not run in & out of Wrexham on public Holidays, ATW seem to have forgotten this,a problem with new management.
As for the open access train picking up at Wrexham for Shrewsbury at 0732,it is still a loss of a direct service,also the Open Access can be withdrawn at any time, it also makes a farce of any line time increase North/South due to the part redoubling in my opinion,stopping at Ruabon/Chirk/Gobowen will add minutes to the service.

As for your PS, ill ignore that.

I recall at the start of privatisation, TOCs would put in their individual Timetable bids for paths to Railtrack (at the time) and were not supposed to know what other TOCs were bidding.

 

[berneyarms]

It shows the importance of retaining flexibility in the infrastructure, even when it's not regularly used.

 

[Greenback]

Flexibility is essential to reduce the impact of late running services and to allow for extra services, and diverted trains where appropriate.

 

[swcovas]

Do you have a timetable for this service by any chance? Five trains suggests to me that possibly they passed each other on the double tracks either end. This would remove the constraint I mentioned of uneven loop spacing, but lead to poor stock utilisation unless they interworked with another route.

You'll find the tt which I THINK will be used in the attached report as Option 3. As you rightly say this will involve some trains passing on the double track sections. Other options also mentioned in the report with the various advantages and disadvantages.

 

[merlodlliw]

You'll find the tt which I THINK will be used in the attached report as Option 3. As you rightly say this will involve some trains passing on the double track sections. Other options also mentioned in the report with the various advantages and disadvantages.

Looking at the consultants report, how times have changed, the four consortia in Wales are now scrapped,and Shrewsbury is soon to loose its A&E to Telford,

 

[swcovas]

Looking at the consultants report, how times have changed, the four consortia in Wales are now scrapped,and Shrewsbury is soon to loose its A&E to Telford,

Too true! Just another example of shed fulls of money being spent on consultancy reports which then sit on bureaucrats desks so long that by the time they are looked at much of the info is out of date. Sounding cynical?

 

[Greenback]

Sounding cynical?

Yes, but rightly so! I felt the same way when I read the reference to the single line section between Cockett and Llanelli, now redoubled.

 

[Greenback]

I thought that the consultants report on the HoW line was pretty comprehensive and accurate.

 

[swcovas]

I thought that the consultants report on the HoW line was pretty comprehensive and accurate.

I would agree but as has been pointed out it, it's 5 years ago and some things have changed. Interestingly I think the HOW Forum have been given another 250k or so to look into ways of how the service can be improved. Dare I say it but most people on the ground can tell what improvements could be made. Will this result in another report which will sit around for 5 years without any action?

 

[Jez]

Any extra services on the HOW line has to be a good thing. And if they are moving most of the services later by an hour or so as a result of the early services to Llandovery and Llandod each end thats a good thing too. The first train into Swansea was too late for commuters and a bit early for day trips.

Hopefully they will keep the 18xx trains at each end at a simular time.

The only downside is that the 0431 was used by some people at Swansea to travel to Shrewsbury and beyond for day trips etc, ok it wasnt heavily used but some passengers will lose out as the first through train from Swansea/Llanelli to Shrewsbury will arrive there later now.

 

[Jez]

I suppose in theory the extra HOW services could be done with the existing 3 units if they are to interwork with the Crewe local set. If the 1314 departure from swansea to shrewsbury for example ends up going later at say 3pm it wont get to Shrewsbury in time to work the 18xx back down, unless that was retimed to run later. So working it through to Crewe and another set coming down from Crewe makes sense.

So 4 sets for HOW in theory with them being interworked with Swanline as now and the Shrewsbury to Crewe local service.

I wonder what will happen with the first train from Swansea. If its to go at 8am ish could we see a return of the Cardiff-Swansea-HOW service which used to run as the 2nd through train from Swansea to Shrewsbury. Currently there is a swanline that leaves Cardiff around 7.15am which ends up sitting in Swansea and then forming the 915ish HOW from Swansea.

i assume a set will be at Carmarthen overnight for the first Carmarthen-Llandovery service. On return to Swansea this could then go on to form the next HOW or go to Cardiff. Or perhaps the overnight fishguard which currently runs the 431am will run empty to Carmarthen to form the new Carmarthen to Llandovery service. Im sure we will know soon what the new diagrams are to be.

 

[swcovas]

I suppose in theory the extra HOW services could be done with the existing 3 units if they are to interwork with the Crewe local set. If the 1314 departure from swansea to shrewsbury for example ends up going later at say 3pm it wont get to Shrewsbury in time to work the 18xx back down, unless that was retimed to run later. So working it through to Crewe and another set coming down from Crewe makes sense.

So 4 sets for HOW in theory with them being interworked with Swanline as now and the Shrewsbury to Crewe local service.

I wonder what will happen with the first train from Swansea. If its to go at 8am ish could we see a return of the Cardiff-Swansea-HOW service which used to run as the 2nd through train from Swansea to Shrewsbury. Currently there is a swanline that leaves Cardiff around 7.15am which ends up sitting in Swansea and then forming the 915ish HOW from Swansea.

i assume a set will be at Carmarthen overnight for the first Carmarthen-Llandovery service. On return to Swansea this could then go on to form the next HOW or go to Cardiff. Or perhaps the overnight fishguard which currently runs the 431am will run empty to Carmarthen to form the new Carmarthen to Llandovery service. Im sure we will know soon what the new diagrams are to be.

An announcement will be made in Feb apparently. Regarding your earlier post, I don't think the withdrawal of the 0431 departure from Swansea will be any loss at all. I have had cause to use it a few times from Llandeilo to get to Liverpool airport. I have often been the only one on the train until Llandrindod and from there on it fills up a bit. And this traffic will be still be catered for with the 0645 Llandod-Crewe in next year's tt

 

[6Gman]

As for your PS, ill ignore that.

To be fair Merlod, you do have a particular way with your spelling : loose for lose, ruining for running, and you always seem to put an extra 'h' on the word as!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Converted London Underground stock isn't going to be suitable to help out if and when services like the extra Cambrians fill up. We need more regional express DMUs, or push-pull LHCS like Gerald and the new north Wales train, to boost capacity and frequencies without going backwards in terms of passenger comfort.

Coming back on thread I imagine the revised times on the HOW will increase usage too, esp the peak services. Will the single car 153's cope with commuter flows?

 

[PHILIPE]

Coming back on thread I imagine the revised times on the HOW will increase usage too, esp the peak services. Will the single car 153's cope with commuter flows?

It could be that there may not be many more passengers but just spread out on more trains. Currrently, 04 36 Swansea to Shrewsbury is booked 150 due to loadings at the top end.

 

[Max]

This thread on the HOWL has partly turned into a discussion re Wrexham prison and other things in that area.

This has already been discussed on link:=

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90643

I've moved some posts to the quoted thread - please can we try and keep on topic here? Thanks.

 

[animationmilo]

It could be that there may not be many more passengers but just spread out on more trains. Currrently, 04 36 Swansea to Shrewsbury is booked 150 due to loadings at the top end.

I thought it was booked 150 now as it comes from a Pembroke Dock the day before, as 153s were too busy on Pembroke Docks.