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Trivia: Unique London bus routes

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Busaholic

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Didn't the old 10 when it was Victoria-Abridge/Wanstead only route to cross the Thames 3 times?


38 first route to use NBFL, plus think the only route left has every other daytime journey operating short section.

No, the 10 only crossed the Thames twice, on Lambeth and London Bridges. Logically, given that both termini were always north of the river, if it had crossed three times then it would have had to make a fourth crossing too!
Wanstead must be the place that has become most disconnected from central London by bus over the years, not only has the 10 disappeared without trace but the 96 Putney to Redbridge after the 1958 bus strike and the relatively short-lived 32 which helped duplicate the 25 from Victoria to Stratford, then on to Leytonstone and Wanstead immediately after trolleybus conversion at Bow. The 32 is the only central London trunk route on which I can't recollect ever seeing two buses bunched, probably an indication of its relative infrequency.
 
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Statto

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Some years ago the N81 bus was extended from Dartford to Gillingham once or twice a week but was presumably unsuccessful as it didn't last long.

Would that have been the longest London night bus route ever ?

Operated at Weekends only, i've still got the Night Bus timetable booklet for 1994, only one journey went Trafalgar Square to Gillingham which returned only to New Cross.
 

bb21

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Anyone remember the 77A, the last TfL suffixed route in regular passenger service?

Renamed 87 after the number was vacated following a reorganisation of routes in Barking(?), and had the unique position of having N77 named after it, not the 77.

208 was the last route to not have a single journey operating over the whole route.

N207 was at one stage operated out of three garages iirc: Uxbridge, Hayes and Westbourne Park.
 

Deerfold

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Anyone remember the 77A, the last TfL suffixed route in regular passenger service?

That was only 2006!

Renamed 87 after the number was vacated following a reorganisation of routes in Barking(?), and had the unique position of having N77 named after it, not the 77.


The 87 was lumped onto the end of the 5 and reused very quickly - usually route numbers are not reused for at least a year.
 
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Busaholic

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That was only 2006!




The 87 was lumped onto the end of the 5 and reused very quickly - usually route numbers are not reused for at least a year.

The cynic might even suggest the Barking 87 was swallowed up by the 5 purely to allow the forbidden suffix route number 77A to be abolished, never mind that the inhabitants of Tooting, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall etc had for decades recognised the difference between a 77 and a 77A.
 

Deerfold

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The cynic might even suggest the Barking 87 was swallowed up by the 5 purely to allow the forbidden suffix route number 77A to be abolished, never mind that the inhabitants of Tooting, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall etc had for decades recognised the difference between a 77 and a 77A.

I never did understand what the problem was with suffix letters, or, having got rid of most of them, why the 77A continued as the only example for so many years.
 

Busaholic

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I never did understand what the problem was with suffix letters, or, having got rid of most of them, why the 77A continued as the only example for so many years.

Some of us (me,anyway) remember the 77B and 77C as well, being weekend variations of the 77 and 77A using different bridges across the Thames to the weekday routes. I do accept that those could have been too confusing for the casual passenger, though. Somebody high on the bus side at TfL probably had a bee in their bonnet about suffix letters and one size had eventually to fit all. Don't be surprised to see their eventual reintroduction, though: these things always go in phases.
 

Be3G

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TfL do still operate routes with suffix letters!

…only for a couple of days a year, though: the Notting Hill Carnival specials, which generally include express portions, are suffixed with an X.
 

Deerfold

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I wonder if the general lack of suffix letters is because suffix letters are used internally and on contracts - so it's to minimise coonfusion about which of these is actually displayed (H is used for the heritage route, D is usually for seperately contracted school journeys, U for extra journeys added for Underground replacement...)
 

bb21

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The reason given at the time iirc was that passengers were finding suffix letters confusing, hence they had to be removed for better clarity. Not convinced personally but I guess we will never find out.

I am not sure the conspiracy theory holds much water. They could easily have used a different number, 477 for example remains unoccupied to date, without the need to do something with 87. It is not that unusual for 4xx routes to appear in central London anyway with the introduction of 414, 453 and 436. It also holds true the tradition of newly derived routes having additional digits inserted at the beginning: 2 - 432, 36 - 436, 53 - 453, 63 - 363, etc.
 

PeterY

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Interesting thread, even though I not a big fan of buses.

What route number has been running the same route (or basically similar) the longest period of time?
 

Deerfold

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Interesting thread, even though I not a big fan of buses.

What route number has been running the same route (or basically similar) the longest period of time?

The 24. Unchanged apart from changes due to steets going one way since 1912. A small extension from its introduction in 1910.
 

Busaholic

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The reason given at the time iirc was that passengers were finding suffix letters confusing, hence they had to be removed for better clarity. Not convinced personally but I guess we will never find out.

I am not sure the conspiracy theory holds much water. They could easily have used a different number, 477 for example remains unoccupied to date, without the need to do something with 87. It is not that unusual for 4xx routes to appear in central London anyway with the introduction of 414, 453 and 436. It also holds true the tradition of newly derived routes having additional digits inserted at the beginning: 2 - 432, 36 - 436, 53 - 453, 63 - 363, etc.

477 couldn't be used because of the very longstanding route of that number between Orpington and Dartford via Swanley, a number that briefly disappeared when Kentish Bus thought they could become a serious player in the London bus market, but operated partly within the Greater London area with LT, then TfL's ,permission since the boundary changes of 1965. There's no 'conspiracy theory' about the 87, just funny how, when it disappeared it immediately resurfaced on the Clapham Junction omnibus.

Now, if you want a conspiracy theory, I'll wager that 159 Routemaster pictured on the moon was actually in a desert in Arizona or someplace, driven there by Neil Armstrong.:lol:
 

Statto

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The reason given at the time iirc was that passengers were finding suffix letters confusing, hence they had to be removed for better clarity. Not convinced personally but I guess we will never find out.

I am not sure the conspiracy theory holds much water. They could easily have used a different number, 477 for example remains unoccupied to date, without the need to do something with 87. It is not that unusual for 4xx routes to appear in central London anyway with the introduction of 414, 453 and 436. It also holds true the tradition of newly derived routes having additional digits inserted at the beginning: 2 - 432, 36 - 436, 53 - 453, 63 - 363, etc.

Suffix letters are used throughout the UK & Worldwide so don't see how TFL deem them confusing, if anything renumbering routes makes things more confusing, like how many passengers would be confused by 341 when it was renumbered from 171A.
 

Busaholic

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Suffix letters are used throughout the UK & Worldwide so don't see how TFL deem them confusing, if anything renumbering routes makes things more confusing, like how many passengers would be confused by 341 when it was renumbered from 171A.

Especially with the 341 operating in the same area as the 141 for part of its route.
 

319364

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The reason given at the time iirc was that passengers were finding suffix letters confusing, hence they had to be removed for better clarity. Not convinced personally but I guess we will never find out.

I am not sure the conspiracy theory holds much water. They could easily have used a different number, 477 for example remains unoccupied to date, without the need to do something with 87. It is not that unusual for 4xx routes to appear in central London anyway with the introduction of 414, 453 and 436. It also holds true the tradition of newly derived routes having additional digits inserted at the beginning: 2 - 432, 36 - 436, 53 - 453, 63 - 363, etc.

The original plan was for the 77A to be renumbered 437, don't know why it was changed though.
 

lightning76

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Suffix letters are used throughout the UK & Worldwide so don't see how TFL deem them confusing, if anything renumbering routes makes things more confusing, like how many passengers would be confused by 341 when it was renumbered from 171A.

Having driven both the 77 and 77A, I cannot recall any passengers complaining that they had boarded the wrong bus. Which would seem to indicate that there was not in fact any issue.

On the other hand, my partner is dyslexic, and was repeatedly confused at Turnpike Lane by the existence of a 123 and a 231. I would imagine far more people, of similar affliction, would find that and other similar examples more confusing than 77/77A.
 

Busaholic

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Having driven both the 77 and 77A, I cannot recall any passengers complaining that they had boarded the wrong bus. Which would seem to indicate that there was not in fact any issue.

On the other hand, my partner is dyslexic, and was repeatedly confused at Turnpike Lane by the existence of a 123 and a 231. I would imagine far more people, of similar affliction, would find that and other similar examples more confusing than 77/77A.

Exactly, and TfL's non-acceptance of 3 or 4 track route number blinds made the decision even more nonsensical, so that an 'A' could not be accidentally included or excluded on a blind.

My own candidate for 'unique' London bus route status is the 76, partly based on its routeing over many decades although recognizably the same route now as then. My reasons are as follows:-
Along with a handful of others like the 16,24 and 38 it has plied the same streets for more than a century and, unlike the 24, it is operated by the same garage now as when it started i.e. Tottenham (AR) and ,apart from a brief hiatus after privatisation, has always been worked by that garage (rather like its number-neighbour 75 at Catford).
It was the only London bus route which you could see crossing two adjoining bridges (Westminster and Blackfriars) simply by standing in the middle of the bridge in the middle, namely Waterloo. This was when it ran from Victoria to Tottenham via Waterloo and Queen Victoria Street. To anyone who might ask 'how could you tell which route the buses were on?' the answer was simple when the 76 became the first London route to be operated by rear-engined, doored doubledeckers the XA (Atlantean) class, experimentally. They were later joined by the truly-unique FRM1.Nowadays. of course Westminster (also Lambeth, used on diversion during State occasions) is long gone as, more recently (and needlessly imo) is Blackfriars, the route to Waterloo now joining the common herd over the bridge of that name.
Other reasons why it stood out from the crowd: the 76 was jointly scheduled with the works-journeys 34B route, so buses worked onto and off that route rather like the better-known 15 and 100 at Upton Park. It also had a separate peaks only schedule from Victoria to Liverpool Street Station to give Blackfriars Station passengers a direct route to the latter and, unlike the 25 journeys from Dagenham East Station to Fords which were always worked off the main schedule, I believe the 76s were worked as a supplementary schedule i.e. with its own allocation, rather like the NBfLs on the 38 were at first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another 'unique' route is the 521, the only one to use part of an ex-tram subway!
 

NLC1072

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The 498 is the only regular London bus route to Brentwood and may be the only one that crosses the M25 in Essex. There are several other places served by only one route - eg Dorking and St Albans though only the latter is outside London travelcard zones for reasons I've never really understood

The 372 to Lakeside shopping center also crosses the M25 in Essex.
 

nicobobinus

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The 4 was the last 'conventional' TfL route to operate with step entrance vehicles, fielding a few AV class Olympians until Christmas 2005. TfL forced Metroline's hand by getting them to hire in Tridents from First.

The longest 'stage' bus service to operate within the London area is the 724, which does a 57 mile curved sweep from Heathrow to Harlow via Uxbridge, South Bucks, Herts and Essex.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone remember the 77A, the last TfL suffixed route in regular passenger service?

Renamed 87 after the number was vacated following a reorganisation of routes in Barking(?), and had the unique position of having N77 named after it, not the 77.

208 was the last route to not have a single journey operating over the whole route.

N207 was at one stage operated out of three garages iirc: Uxbridge, Hayes and Westbourne Park.

It was certainly the last sectionalised route, but the 208 ran 'through' during evenings and Sundays for as long as I can remember, and there were one or two daytime trips that did so too (something to do with school peaks, I think). I think the 253 was the last route to operate entirely in sections from first til last bus until the eastern leg formally became the 254 in 2003.
 

CatfordCat

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re 76 -

both the 76 and 75 have had a spell away from their traditional home, at Capital Citybus's Northumberland Park and Metrobus' Croydon depots respectively.

I think a thread on this sort of subject on another forum a while back identified Sutton Garage's route 80 as the longest surviving single garage route allocation.

And quite a few south london tram replacement routes ran across both Westminster and Blackfriars bridges to use the 'terminus' of Victoria Embankment - buses would show 'Blackfriars and Embankment' and run north via Blackfriars and south via Westminster and vice versa. I think the 109 was the last to stick to this arrangement.

I have a 1955 repro schedule book to hand - it does not show a separate allocation for buses that worked the 34B, although I'd have thought that only some buses did go on to the 34B.

The 12 and 77 were both rarities in that they were worked in separate sections which (at one time) did not have any journeys which ran end to end of the route - no buses on the 12 ran all the way from S Croydon to Park Royal - the allocation for the 12 was split in to two sections - Shepherds Bush only worked the north end, Croydon only the south end; Elmers End and Nunhead (later Rye Lane) had buses which were allocated to one or the other - I assume crews could work both.

The Wallington end of the 77 always ran as a separate service from the main 77.

One of the reasons for keeping such services as the same route number meant that what were (in effect) two routes could be scheduled jointly without breaching the usual rule about not doing joint schedules.

Thinking of routes running in sections, the 141 may have been unique in the 1970s - on Saturdays, the two sections of the route did not touch let alone overlap - the Wood Green end terminated at Moorgate, the Grove Park end mainly only ran as far as Elephant & Castle, with a few morning journeys extended to Farringdon Street for print workers coming off the night shift on Fleet Street. Other than emergency operations (some of which, like the 'Petersham Hole' in the late 70s, ran for some time) or special arrangements for major events in central London, I'm not sure any other routes ran in two disconnected parts...
 

Busaholic

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re 76 -

both the 76 and 75 have had a spell away from their traditional home, at Capital Citybus's Northumberland Park and Metrobus' Croydon depots respectively.

I think a thread on this sort of subject on another forum a while back identified Sutton Garage's route 80 as the longest surviving single garage route allocation.

And quite a few south london tram replacement routes ran across both Westminster and Blackfriars bridges to use the 'terminus' of Victoria Embankment - buses would show 'Blackfriars and Embankment' and run north via Blackfriars and south via Westminster and vice versa. I think the 109 was the last to stick to this arrangement.

I have a 1955 repro schedule book to hand - it does not show a separate allocation for buses that worked the 34B, although I'd have thought that only some buses did go on to the 34B.

The 12 and 77 were both rarities in that they were worked in separate sections which (at one time) did not have any journeys which ran end to end of the route - no buses on the 12 ran all the way from S Croydon to Park Royal - the allocation for the 12 was split in to two sections - Shepherds Bush only worked the north end, Croydon only the south end; Elmers End and Nunhead (later Rye Lane) had buses which were allocated to one or the other - I assume crews could work both.

The Wallington end of the 77 always ran as a separate service from the main 77.

One of the reasons for keeping such services as the same route number meant that what were (in effect) two routes could be scheduled jointly without breaching the usual rule about not doing joint schedules.

Thinking of routes running in sections, the 141 may have been unique in the 1970s - on Saturdays, the two sections of the route did not touch let alone overlap - the Wood Green end terminated at Moorgate, the Grove Park end mainly only ran as far as Elephant & Castle, with a few morning journeys extended to Farringdon Street for print workers coming off the night shift on Fleet Street. Other than emergency operations (some of which, like the 'Petersham Hole' in the late 70s, ran for some time) or special arrangements for major events in central London, I'm not sure any other routes ran in two disconnected parts...

At another period of the 1970s through buses worked on Saturdays on the 141, the only day when Wood Green allocated buses worked south of Moorgate, all the way to Grove Park!

Here's one that may have been unique - the tram replacement 182 when first introduced had seven-days- a - week operation including evenings. The full route ran from Cannon Street Station to Woolwich, General Gordon Place via Eltham but the only part of the route covered all the time was the stretch of Well Hall Road from Eltham Church to Eltham,Well Hall Station, this being used both when Eltham was the easternmost terminus and at other times when it was the westernmost. In both cases this small boy was able to watch the prewar RTs as they plied their trade up and down the Well Hall Road.
 

Statto

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Number 255 has appeared most times [6 times]on London Bus routes, number 255 first appeared in 1960 Acton Vale Bromyard Avenue -Clapham Junction, latest incarnation operates Balham-Pollards Hill South Lodge Avenue
 

nicobobinus

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Thinking of routes running in sections, the 141 may have been unique in the 1970s - on Saturdays, the two sections of the route did not touch let alone overlap - the Wood Green end terminated at Moorgate, the Grove Park end mainly only ran as far as Elephant & Castle, with a few morning journeys extended to Farringdon Street for print workers coming off the night shift on Fleet Street. Other than emergency operations (some of which, like the 'Petersham Hole' in the late 70s, ran for some time) or special arrangements for major events in central London, I'm not sure any other routes ran in two disconnected parts...

I have one route in mind, though it had pass acceptance and mostly ran within London it doesn't count as a true LT/TfL example. The 1990s-incarnation Lea Valley 363 (Tottenham Hale - Hammond Street via a vast swathe of suburban N London and Cheshunt) had two distinct sections on a Sunday: Tottenham Hale to Picketts Lock Leisure Centre, and Waltham Cross to Hammond Street.
 

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With regard to suffixes - aren't Routemaster-worked services on the 15 actually numbered 15H?

That's the contract route number - in similar ways, seperately contracted schol workings are numbered (EG) 405D, underground replacements services 148U etc - but none are shown on the bus themselves or customer publicity. The only routes that actually show such suffixes are the special 2X, 36X and 436X services direct from South London to the Notting Hill Carnival.
 

Busaholic

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Suffix letters (well, A anyway) are also allowed on temporary routes during road closures and other works, usually by one or two buses max bearing paper stickers as blinds.
 

Deerfold

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Suffix letters (well, A anyway) are also allowed on temporary routes during road closures and other works, usually by one or two buses max bearing paper stickers as blinds.

Usually these routes are now numbered in the 5XX series.
 

gage75

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route E6 shares three stops for buses going in opposite directions two before and one after Tesco on Glencoe Rd in Hayes Mx
 
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