Ceredigion council backs Cambrian line freight idea

[the-gog]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-29803258

Ceredigion council backs Cambrian line freight idea

A disused railway station could be reopened for freight services for mid Wales under plans being considered by Ceredigion council.

The local authority is looking to reopen Bow Street station outside Aberystwyth.

A full council meeting has backed the idea of using the Cambrian Rail line for transporting goods.

Network Rail has said there could be a 30% increase in the use of railways to transport goods over the next decade.

Ceredigion council said freight services on the Cambrian line could also reduce heavy traffic from lorries on the A44 and the A487.

According to Councillor Mark Strong, who proposed the motion, no goods are transported on the railway into mid Wales despite the necessary infrastructure being available.

Councillor Alun Williams was one of those who proposed reinstating Bow Street Station as a transportation hub to relieve traffic in the area.

He said "There is now cross-party agreement that Ceredigion requires a fully integrated transport infrastructure that includes a railway service for both freight and passengers in order for the county to thrive economically."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ori53rbVYWc

Several issues with this:

1. ERTMS means a pilot loco needs to be attached. I don't think NR provide this FOC any longer;
2. The hourly timetable will reduce the paths available, but it should be possible to use paths in late morning/early pm;
3. I doubt there's sufficient demand for bulk goods in the Ceredigion area to justify the cost of building the facility and then operating a regular freight service.

 

[Gareth Marston]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-29803258



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ori53rbVYWc

Several issues with this:

1. ERTMS means a pilot loco needs to be attached. I don't think NR provide this FOC any longer;
2. The hourly timetable will reduce the paths available, but it should be possible to use paths in late morning/early pm;
3. I doubt there's sufficient demand for bulk goods in the Ceredigion area to justify the cost of building the facility and then operating a regular freight service.

The UK roll out of etcs is being brought forward according to NR Mark Carne and will include MPV's.
Etcs is manned 24/7 at Mach so overnight runs not an issue as no manned level crossings etc anymore.
Ceredigion CC have acknowledged that HGV's are destroying their roads and they haven't got the budget to fix them so this is a real big development in supporting rail freight I wouldn't underestimate it.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps if the supermarkets could co-operate to run their respective containers on a single train as baseload, which would also have some space available for other users? Overnight might work quite well in getting them to the stores at start of business the next day.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Am I missing something? Surely any freight would be better off running right into Aberystwyth rather than the sleepy hamlet of Bow Street? Wondering if the beeb have confused two separate stories here... :roll:

 

[TheEdge]

Am I missing something? Surely any freight would be better off running right into Aberystwyth rather than the sleepy hamlet of Bow Street? Wondering if the beeb have confused two separate stories here... :roll:

You are somewhat. The railway is fairly constrained in Aberystwyth itself, sharing the alignment with the VoRR for a fair distance as well. By the time the VoRR has gone it alone its already out to Llanbadarn and it then climbs up out of the town round the back the hills and is fairly inaccessible.

Bow Street is the closest place to Aber it reappears on the level and close to a significant road.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was there not a proposal to utilise the site of the former Carno station a few years ago?

 

[The Planner]

The UK roll out of etcs is being brought forward according to NR Mark Carne and will include MPV's.

Brought forward to 2029 for completion is what is said but frankly that is just a grandiose statement and very unlikely. He is also expecting level 3... where is freight running to and from? It will run at a massive loss that no one will want to sustain.

 

[the-gog]

where is freight running to and from? It will run at a massive loss that no one will want to sustain.

I don't think the Ceredigion councillors have considered this. The decision struck me as a "pie-in-the-sky" wish. We've been here before, haven't we. Look what's happened at Donnington (Telford). That was supposed to be a major rail hub in the heart of a densely-populated industrial area.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Was there not a proposal to utilise the site of the former Carno station a few years ago?

Local Carno Station Action Group hasn't gone away and has met with Ministers and officials and is still on radar pressurising despite NR costing a gold platter unaffordable new station to try and make the issue go away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Brought forward to 2029 for completion is what is said but frankly that is just a grandiose statement and very unlikely. He is also expecting level 3... where is freight running to and from? It will run at a massive loss that no one will want to sustain.

Aberystwyth is about as far away off the distribution network and multi lane purpose built highway network as you can get in England and Wales, the economics of the warehouse road distribution box around Central England are fragile.

 

[topydre]

Am I missing something? Surely any freight would be better off running right into Aberystwyth rather than the sleepy hamlet of Bow Street? Wondering if the beeb have confused two separate stories here... :roll:

Yes, one story is support for re-opening Bow Street station to passengers, the other is support for freight on the Cambrian

 

[catfordbags]

Is there similarities with the supermarket train that goes to Inverness - does that one run in a viable manner ?

 

[tadhatter]

Is there similarities with the supermarket train that goes to Inverness - does that one run in a viable manner ?

Exactly what i was wondering.

If Tesco can run containers to remote Scotland surely Morrisons can run them to Aber. When i last went to Aber i noted that morrisons was built on the flood plain of the river Rheidol with some room for a container distribution depot. Not sure who owns the land there though. Even if that was impossible a depot near Bow Street would definitely be an option.

 

[Parallel]

Yes, one story is support for re-opening Bow Street station to passengers, the other is support for freight on the Cambrian

I'm all for opening the railway station at Bow Street for passenger use. Bow Street is quite a busy area thanks to the main road, residential housing and there are also a couple of shops and pubs. Considering trains currently run through where the old station was I think reopening this would be reasonably low cost (compared to other places) and would improve connectivity between Bow Street and Aberystwyth. The main issue (not sure if this will change or not with the hourly service) is the trains do not have much dwell time at Aberystwyth (think it's about 5 mins? Possibly 10?) So delays on this part of the line can easily build up...

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there similarities with the supermarket train that goes to Inverness - does that one run in a viable manner ?

The Tesco train is part of a logistics chain which delivers to around 15 stores in the far north, including 4 in Inverness itself (pop 72,000), plus stores as far away as Thurso, Kirkwall and Stornaway. Hence there is sufficient volume to justify a trainload service and the transshipment facility at Inverness.

The supermarket in Aberystwyth (pop 18,000 being generous), is Morrisons as you say. AIUI the next nearest Morrisons is in Newtown. Using a train for such a small flow would be slower, less fuel efficient, and considerably more expensive than an artic.

 

[topydre]

The main issue (not sure if this will change or not with the hourly service) is the trains do not have much dwell time at Aberystwyth (think it's about 5 mins? Possibly 10?) So delays on this part of the line can easily build up...

According to the timetable the turn-around is 5 mins; in reality it's 11 mins (the train almost always arrives at :19 rather than :25). Maybe they could knock a couple of minutes off the Machynlleth stop.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not wishing to rain on any ones parade - but they could not retain the long standing Stanlow-Aber fuel trains , or the experimental timber MPV loads. Regrettably - not enough people live in the hinterland.

There must , on a positive note - be a chance for a "Tesco" type operation to say Exeter or Plymouth - or along the North Wales coast to say Llandudno Junction. All about economics.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's probably plenty of lorries arround but they are all working for different companies. No trainload of freight for a single customer here. The question therefore is can it all be combined into a worthwhile train, I don't hold out much hope of that.

 

[MarkyT]

There must , on a positive note - be a chance for a "Tesco" type operation to say Exeter or Plymouth - or along the North Wales coast to say Llandudno Junction. All about economics.

Sainsburys were planning a new distribution hub connected to proposed rail freight sidings at Broadclyst near Exeter, but the project has since been put on hold, although hasn't been dismissed entirely. Hopefully it's just a matter of time, but the price wars and profit worries at the retail big boys may make major investment decisions rather shaky. On the other hand if there really is an operational cost saving with rail to be traded against the supposed higher quality and dependability of road logistics, then a retail cash crisis might actually encourage adoption of rail. Significant fragmentation of the market however may result in no individual chain having sufficient volume to justify rail.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Sainsburys were planning a new distribution hub connected to proposed rail freight sidings at Broadclyst near Exeter, but the project has since been put on hold, although hasn't been dismissed entirely. Hopefully it's just a matter of time, but the price wars and profit worries at the retail big boys may make major investment decisions rather shaky. On the other hand if there really is an operational cost saving with rail to be traded against the supposed higher quality and dependability of road logistics, then a retail cash crisis might actually encourage adoption of rail. Significant fragmentation of the market however may result in no individual chain having sufficient volume to justify rail.

I would suggest that reliability and quality is far more important than cost in that situation, in which case road transport will always be the winner. The other issue of course is that the M5 takes you straight to Exeter which is ideal for road transport. In the Long term I don't think Morrison''s will exist where as Tesco, Sainsburys and Asda will start to recover. With Morrison's I think it's too little too late.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not wishing to rain on any ones parade - but they could not retain the long standing Stanlow-Aber fuel trains , or the experimental timber MPV loads. Regrettably - not enough people live in the hinterland.

There must , on a positive note - be a chance for a "Tesco" type operation to say Exeter or Plymouth - or along the North Wales coast to say Llandudno Junction. All about economics.

The stanlow tanks went in 93 even though the replacement lorries had a 100 mile plus journey. BR was making some very odd decisions at the time almost certainly under pressure from the "roads to prosperity" government of the time. Many saw this and the withdrawal of the Cambrian Coast Express as a deliberate attempt at a managed run down and another closure attempt. Which we know is what the arhitechts of rail privitisation wanted once the magic of the private failed to rescue the railways.

The Shell facilities to unload oil by rail are still intact and weed free debatable how usable they are now but Railtrack/NR have let saplings grow up through the track up to the shell gate. Whittington is like this as well. Shell clearly mothballed.

The timber trial to Chirk was a success but it relied on lorries bringing in the timber to the railhead, what happened was the local HGV driver/owners had a meeting where they all agreed not to undertake the work and insisted on the right to drive the timber all the way to Chirk.

Of course my local councillors, MP and AM will all point to the logging lorries, supermarket delivery HGVsand Shell road tankers trundling along the A483 as justification for their demands for bypasses around Newtown and Pant/Llanymynech. Anyone got a spare £200 million to help them?

 

[MarkyT]

I would suggest that reliability and quality is far more important than cost in that situation, in which case road transport will always be the winner. The other issue of course is that the M5 takes you straight to Exeter which is ideal for road transport. In the Long term I don't think Morrison''s will exist where as Tesco, Sainsburys and Asda will start to recover. With Morrison's I think it's too little too late.

The dependability thing was my immediate thought following the Tesco train derailment at Gloucester last year. Luckily that was the empties on the way back to Daventry, but had it been the loaded containers going the other way, potentially 20 or more stores served from the destination terminal may not have received that day's deliveries. A single road accident by contrast, no matter how horrific, would only likely stop one container. Don't get me wrong I'm very pro-railfreight, but is up to the rail industry to ensure this kind of incident doesn't happen again. It is as much the perception of quality as much as the delivery that influences decisions.

 

[merlodlliw]

ERTMS will kill the idea,who is going to invest in the equipment,plus how many paths will become available from next May.Plus who has got spare 37s.

Councillors ambitions tend to get lost when it comes to cost.

 

[Gareth Marston]

ERTMS will kill the idea,who is going to invest in the equipment,plus how many paths will become available from next May.Plus who has got spare 37s.

Councillors ambitions tend to get lost when it comes to cost.

West coast railways are paying to fit etcs in 2 Class 37 for for a handful of charters a year if that's economic then sticking it in an MPV or other locos for a regular freight train will be too.

The current DOWN and UP charter/ test train paths in the off peak are not effected after May 15. Anyway with etcs the Cambrian is a 24 hour railway as Mach is manned all night and all crossings are automated.

 

[GearJammer]

I don't see the point in this, once again we have people complaining that the trucks, while sitting in there cars, when they could be using the train themselves.

When are people going to realise that rail can't mobilise and deliver as quickly or efficiently as road? At least one of the residents has realised that once the freight arrives on the train it still needs to be put on a truck to get to its final destination.... so you may aswell leave it on the same truck for the whole trip!

 

[muddythefish]

I don't see the point in this, once again we have people complaining that the trucks, while sitting in there cars, when they could be using the train themselves.

When are people going to realise that rail can't mobilise and deliver as quickly or efficiently as road? At least one of the residents has realised that once the freight arrives on the train it still needs to be put on a truck to get to its final destination.... so you may aswell leave it on the same truck for the whole trip!

Said a spokesman for the FTA.

Whose side are you on ?

 

[GearJammer]

Said a spokesman for the FTA.

Whose side are you on ?

Its not a case of being on one side or the other, I work in road haulage, ive followed railways all my life, I spent a number of years driving a truck for a railfreight company. In my view this scheme won't work, its going to a to smaller population to make it viable, there will be to many people involved who all want to make money from it.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't see the point in this, once again we have people complaining that the trucks, while sitting in there cars, when they could be using the train themselves.

When are people going to realise that rail can't mobilise and deliver as quickly or efficiently as road? At least one of the residents has realised that once the freight arrives on the train it still needs to be put on a truck to get to its final destination.... so you may aswell leave it on the same truck for the whole trip!

Yes, but you always come out with this.
The one thing this proposal would do would be to remove the 40 tonne artics off the roads around here and put the goods into smaller and far more suitable vehicles to deliver from hub to shop.

 

[GearJammer]

Yes, but you always come out with this.
The one thing this proposal would do would be to remove the 40 tonne artics off the roads around here and put the goods into smaller and far more suitable vehicles to deliver from hub to shop.

It doesn't matter, ok so you eliminate the 44 tonner, that freight still has to get from the train to the end destination, so even if you get a fleet of what I would imagine be a minimum of 18 tonners, that truck will still have to make 2-3 trips, its axle weights are still the same so the damage being done to the roads, will still be being done to the roads, you've replaced one truck movement with 2-3.

Also most of the factories/shops don't give a monkies how their stuff gets to them, as long as it gets to them at the cheapest possible price and have it arrive when they want/need it.

 

[6Gman]

Two points:

Firstly, there's a comment upthread that HGVs are destroying Ceredigion's roads and this would help. Since Bow Street is on the northern edge of Ceredigion wouldn't the main beneficiaries be the roads of Montgomery and Shropshire?

Secondly, I'm so old that I can remember freight on the Cambrian - a Class 24 pottering about all day to deliver half a dozen wagons. I knew the manager in charge of it who saved money by moving to twice a week operation. The local councils were outraged! So he went down to meet them, and suggested they switch to receiving their road rock salt by rail instead of by road. They didn't ....

Speaking as an ex-railwayman (20 years) and an ex-councillor (26 years) the level of knowledge of railways among councillors and council officers is pretty close to zero.

 

[GearJammer]

Two points:

Firstly, there's a comment upthread that HGVs are destroying Ceredigion's roads and this would help. Since Bow Street is on the northern edge of Ceredigion wouldn't the main beneficiaries be the roads of Montgomery and Shropshire?

Secondly, I'm so old that I can remember freight on the Cambrian - a Class 24 pottering about all day to deliver half a dozen wagons. I knew the manager in charge of it who saved money by moving to twice a week operation. The local councils were outraged! So he went down to meet them, and suggested they switch to receiving their road rock salt by rail instead of by road. They didn't ....

Speaking as an ex-railwayman (20 years) and an ex-councillor (26 years) the level of knowledge of railways among councillors and council officers is pretty close to zero.

And this is pretty much what im trying to get at, the people that come up with these ideas don't have a clue, they know people get fed up with following trucks up and down the road so try to come up with alternatives seemingly oblivious that the people who work in distribution are already doing things the most efficient way. They come up with these ideas because telling the public 'sorry but the trucks are here to stay' will go down like a lead balloon.

You all live the lives you do because distribution works as well as it does, you can't change it all and expect things to remain the same. Freight on rail has its place, this isn't one of them.