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London bus termini in disuse

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Busaholic

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I was just thinking the other day about termini of yore and reflecting on those quite major ones that have either fallen into disuse or are a shadow of their former selves. I am not referring to those that merely moved down the road a bit, but have disappeared because of changing travel patterns and the like.

This is not meant to be a comprehensive list, because I'm a bit of a lazy so-and-so and I'd rather you did the work!

(A) Chingford, Royal Forest Hotel. Disappeared off the (London bus) map in September 1968 when the Victoria Line opened to Walthamstow Central. It was partly replaced by an extension of the Chingford Station terminus hitherto only used by the 121 from Enfield, but its main terminating route, the 38 from Victoria was cut back to the new bus station at WC. and other routes were 'modernised'.
(B) Purley, High Street was the terminus for the very frequent 109 bus route from central London which was cut back to South Croydon Garage from 1985, although extended again for a few years in the 1990s. Now no buses terminate at Purley from the north and this terminal point is no longer used.
(C) Waltham Cross. Many routes still use WC but when you consider you used to be able to get to Liverpool Street (149), Kings Cross and Holborn Circus (259), Smithfield (279) and Tottenham Court Road (127) it really is a shadow of its former self. All of these were former trolleybus routes of course.

I'll leave it there for the moment cos I'm being cajoled into doing something domestic!
Feedback welcome!
 
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steamybrian

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Being born and brought up in Croydon I remember -
Addiscombe- Black Horse
Terminus of short workings of no. 12 also 59 A
in the early-mid 1960s I was travelling to school from East Croydon to Norwood Jn using route. 12 and in the peak hours these short workings I had to avoid.
Unsure when this terminal closed..?
Croydon- Fairfield Road
Back in the late 1950s-early 1960s there was a bus terminal off Fairfield Road. The site is now occupied by Fairfield Halls.
Thornton Heath -Nursery Road - Unsure if or when disused.
Terminus of routes 130A,166 and 190 back in 1960s

The only one in London I am aware of is
Waterloo Station- Waterloo Road
Under Waterloo Station adjacent Waterloo Road. Site is now occupied by extension of the Underground station entrance.
 

LewFinnis

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Post Office Tower (the old Tottenham Court Road Trolleybus terminus, then bus 269). Bus 14 terminates nearby on TCR itself at Warren Street Station and re-start southbound at Gower Street.
 
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CatfordCat

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A few that come to mind and in no particular order -

Lewisham - Rennell Street / Molesworth Street (round the outside of the Odeon) ceased to be a terminus in 1978 when the first bus station opened. The second bus station has also now closed.

Eltham Well Hall bus station got moved alongside the new Eltham Station (not to be confused with New Eltham Station) whenever that happened.

There must be quite a few other sites where bus stations / termini have moved like that, though.

There are now closed garages that were termini (e.g Sidcup) or had termini on the nearest main road (e.g. Poplar 'Iron Bridge' from which point buses ran to PR to turn round - this was the regular terminus in the early 80s for route 40, not just for garage journeys.)

Some now closed Hospitals (e.g. Banstead, Bexley) were bus termini - sometimes only on Sundays for visiting.

Quite a few locations were on the red bus network but fell off the network because they are outside what's now Greater London (particularly the Loughton network and the routes south west from Kingston.)

As for locations no longer used as regular termini (although may retain stands for short turned buses)-

Moorgate, Finsbury Square has a lot less than it used to, as does Greenwich 'Cutty Sark'

Farringdon Street, Stonecutter Street, is no longer a terminus

the old Smithfield terminus of the 679 / 279 on St John Street is no longer on a London bus route

neither is Victoria Embankment - a loop terminus for South London's trams, still used in to the late 80s by a dwindling number of tram replacement routes

Tooting Bec used to be terminus for the 19, no longer a terminus

Peckham, 'Lord Hill' (a pub not a street) was replaced when PM garage opened in the early 50s.

Waterloo, Cornwall Road bus stand is no longer a bus stand as it's now the 'garage' for some of the 'Red Arrow' buses.

Farnborough 'George' ceased when the 261 replaced bits of the 47 and 229 in about 1983

Plumstead Common - 53s used to terminate there except for garage journeys to AM and later PD garage - the full service now continues to PD

Downham, Bromley Way was for a while the 47s southern terminus (although crews usually did all they could to run late in the hope of getting a 'turn' at TL garage)

most routes that terminated at Surrey Docks Station now continue to Canada Water, the P12 has a new stand.

Dartford Home Gardens is no longer a TfL terminus - all TfL routes now continue to Bluewater

Forest Hill is no longer a terminus

nor is Welling - the stand at the 'Guy, Earl of Warwick' pub was replaced by one at Welling Corner (think this moved for OMO conversion in the early 70s)

Lower Sydenham Station went out of use when the 181 replaced the south end of the 180 (the terminus involved a reverse, hence crew operation)
 

Be3G

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(A) Chingford, Royal Forest Hotel. Disappeared off the (London bus) map in September 1968 when the Victoria Line opened to Walthamstow Central. It was partly replaced by an extension of the Chingford Station terminus hitherto only used by the 121 from Enfield, but its main terminating route, the 38 from Victoria was cut back to the new bus station at WC. and other routes were 'modernised'.

In a sense though, this is one of those termini that has just, as you say, ‘moved down the road a bit’. The hotel is only a 10-minute walk from the present day Chingford Bus Station, which at peak times has a bus arriving or departing every minute or so.

It does seem strange though that TfL don't have any bus service going up Ranger's Road in the direction of the hotel/hunting lodge/forest, as it's a significant tourist attraction (just) within London, although the 397 gets a bit closer than the bus station. Interestingly, TfL's new site thinks there is now a bus stop by the lodge, although no bus currently serves the stretch of road it's on, and last time I went up that way the bus stop didn't actually exist.
 

Busaholic

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Being born and brought up in Croydon I remember -
Addiscombe- Black Horse
Terminus of short workings of no. 12 also 59 A
in the early-mid 1960s I was travelling to school from East Croydon to Norwood Jn using route. 12 and in the peak hours these short workings I had to avoid.
Unsure when this terminal closed..?
Croydon- Fairfield Road
Back in the late 1950s-early 1960s there was a bus terminal off Fairfield Road. The site is now occupied by Fairfield Halls.
Thornton Heath -Nursery Road - Unsure if or when disused.
Terminus of routes 130A,166 and 190 back in 1960s

The only one in London I am aware of is
Waterloo Station- Waterloo Road
Under Waterloo Station adjacent Waterloo Road. Site is now occupied by extension of the Underground station entrance.

I mucked up my first reply, having slowly typed (got arthritis) then somehow sent it into the ether, so slightly truncated it.

(a) Addiscombe, Black Horse I remember as being the terminus of the 50 during the '60s. This was replaced by RT-operated 289 over the Addiscombe to TH section in late 60s, this in turn converted to single-deck omo in early 70s and, after a year or two, extended to the more logical terminus of Elmers End Green. A thriving route now, used probably by those who either don't like the tram or who want to be guaranteed a seat. The section of the 12 you traversed to school was replaced by 12A single-deck omo in early '70s but may initially have kept the short=turn facility at the Black Horse. I only vaguely remember the terminus - did buses stand on the forecourt?

(B) Croydon, Fairfield Road. I well remember the Croydon, Barclay Road destination on the 119 as it passed near to my grandparents' house in Bromley. I believe Barclay Road was just beyond East Croydon Station so may well have fallen victim to the Fairfield Halls development.

(c) Waterloo Station, Colonnades. I used the Waterloo Road stop on the 68 and 196 in the morning rush hour in the early 70s and used to watch the Red Arrows on the 501 and502 quickly fill up and depart, models of efficiency IMO. What hampered further development of the concept was lack of Central London garage space and also certain entrenched attitudes high in LT (I worked for them at the time, so should know!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Post Office Tower (the old Tottenham Court Road Trolleybus terminus, then bus 269). Bus 14 terminates nearby on TCR itself at Warren Street Station and re-start southbound at Gower Street.

This was a very significant terminus for decades - the closest trolleybuses ever got to the West End. When the conversions to RM came, the opportunity to extend the 127 (ex trolleybus 627) to Victoria was taken, but my memory was that the route was split into overlapping parts, the Victoria section only working to Lower Edmonton Station rather than Waltham Cross. What really 'did' for this terminus, apart from too many buses terminating in whar were becoming very busy sidestreets, was the one-way traffic scheme implemented in Tottenham Court Road and Gower Street shortly after the conversions.The 253 remained as the most significant presence to the end, but even here every other journey making it through to Camden Town terminated at Mornington Crescent Station for operational convenience. Actually, the latter, although never the ultimate destination of any route (?) used to see an awful lot of both scheduled and unscheduled terminating buses, so perhaps should be added to the list.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A few that come to mind and in no particular order -

Lewisham - Rennell Street / Molesworth Street (round the outside of the Odeon) ceased to be a terminus in 1978 when the first bus station opened. The second bus station has also now closed.

Eltham Well Hall bus station got moved alongside the new Eltham Station (not to be confused with New Eltham Station) whenever that happened.

There must be quite a few other sites where bus stations / termini have moved like that, though.

There are now closed garages that were termini (e.g Sidcup) or had termini on the nearest main road (e.g. Poplar 'Iron Bridge' from which point buses ran to PR to turn round - this was the regular terminus in the early 80s for route 40, not just for garage journeys.)

Some now closed Hospitals (e.g. Banstead, Bexley) were bus termini - sometimes only on Sundays for visiting.

Quite a few locations were on the red bus network but fell off the network because they are outside what's now Greater London (particularly the Loughton network and the routes south west from Kingston.)

As for locations no longer used as regular termini (although may retain stands for short turned buses)-

Moorgate, Finsbury Square has a lot less than it used to, as does Greenwich 'Cutty Sark'

Farringdon Street, Stonecutter Street, is no longer a terminus

the old Smithfield terminus of the 679 / 279 on St John Street is no longer on a London bus route

neither is Victoria Embankment - a loop terminus for South London's trams, still used in to the late 80s by a dwindling number of tram replacement routes

Tooting Bec used to be terminus for the 19, no longer a terminus

Peckham, 'Lord Hill' (a pub not a street) was replaced when PM garage opened in the early 50s.

Waterloo, Cornwall Road bus stand is no longer a bus stand as it's now the 'garage' for some of the 'Red Arrow' buses.

Farnborough 'George' ceased when the 261 replaced bits of the 47 and 229 in about 1983

Plumstead Common - 53s used to terminate there except for garage journeys to AM and later PD garage - the full service now continues to PD

Downham, Bromley Way was for a while the 47s southern terminus (although crews usually did all they could to run late in the hope of getting a 'turn' at TL garage)

most routes that terminated at Surrey Docks Station now continue to Canada Water, the P12 has a new stand.

Dartford Home Gardens is no longer a TfL terminus - all TfL routes now continue to Bluewater

Forest Hill is no longer a terminus

nor is Welling - the stand at the 'Guy, Earl of Warwick' pub was replaced by one at Welling Corner (think this moved for OMO conversion in the early 70s)

Lower Sydenham Station went out of use when the 181 replaced the south end of the 180 (the terminus involved a reverse, hence crew operation)

Thanks for such a comprehensive list. As I knew a lot of these places pretty well (some, like Eltham Well Hall exceptionally so) I' d like to add some thoughts.

Eltham Well Hall, as you say was moved to the other side of Well Hall Road to the new Eltham Station which replaced WH as well as my local station Eltham Park. There was always a very difficult turn from Well Hall Road into Sherard Road to access the bus station, which didn't stop 36 ft long MBs being allocated to the 21A and the 126 in the late '60s. One quirky point, which may have been unique in London to WH, was that terminating buses from Chislehurst on the 161 showed Eltham Well Hall on their destination blind and approached in the usual way, but terminating buses from the Woolwich direction (and on the 161A) showed Eltham Church because they went up the hill in Well Hall Road first. then 'dead' via Eltham Hill, into the other part of Sherard Rd to the side of Eltham Baths and down to the bus station, departing the same way, usually about half an hour later! (There was a staff canteen at Well Hall).The Eltham Station terminus only sees a small percentage of the terminating buses that used to use WH especially with the 132 extension to North Greenwich and the disappearance long ago of the 21a, 61 and 228.

Bexley Hospital was an interesting one too, and one I never travelled on, for the reason that the 132 was then a circular route, but had this separate Sunday afternoon service from Well Hall to Bexley Hospital via Old Bexley tacked on. The buses on it always displayed a blank, black via points display at the front and similar blanks at the side and back, which meant the only route number on display was at the front, apart from canopy number and offside stencil of course! As far as I know, this was the only scheduled red bus route that adopted this practice. I know from my observations from my grandmother's flat in Well Hall Road that the circular and the hospital buses always came up from Well Hall Station within a minute of each other.

Moorgate, Finsbury Square was another old favourite of mine, being a 21 bus ride away (although not at weekends when I went there, had to get another bus from London Bridge or walk). Saw the first weekend of RMLs on the trolleybus replacement route 104 (the initial batch 880-904) and before that the unique arrangement whereby HT garage operated RMs on Sunday on trolley route 609 alongside Finchley trolleys. Got a feeling that once Crossrail works are complete Finsbury Square will disappear off the bus map too as a terminus.
 

Mike99

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Hi, What about:- (Maybe some are still used!!)
Herne Hill 'Hurst Street' on the 3's
Penge 'Crooked Billet' on the 227's
Lower Sydenham 'Fairlawn Park' on the 75 and 108B
Widmore Green on the 227's
Peckham 'Heaton Arms' 12
Brixton 'George Canning' 3
Mottingham Village on the 126
Southborough on the old 94 road
Keston 'Fox' on the 146
Regards
Mike
 

Busaholic

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Hi, What about:- (Maybe some are still used!!)
Herne Hill 'Hurst Street' on the 3's
Penge 'Crooked Billet' on the 227's
Lower Sydenham 'Fairlawn Park' on the 75 and 108B
Widmore Green on the 227's
Peckham 'Heaton Arms' 12
Brixton 'George Canning' 3
Mottingham Village on the 126
Southborough on the old 94 road
Keston 'Fox' on the 146
Regards
Mike

Another S. E. Londoner! You bring tears to my eyes with memories of some of those. The only one I can say with certainty is still used is Peckham Rye, Heaton Arms on the 12, but I see no reason why Lower Sydenham should not still be used, particularly now the 75 is back at its rightful home of Catford. Keston, Fox terminus was the reason the 146 remained crew-operated for so much longer than would otherwise be the case as it required a reversing movement, so these journeys were abandoned on opo conversion. Herne Hill on the 3 was still being used until the pedestrianisation outside Herne Hill Station: don't know the position now. South Croxted Road (turn at the roundabout) is OK still.Mottingham,Lowfield Road I remember from the 161, but don't recollect 126s using it. Widmore Green on the 227s plus Chislehurst Station, oh yes, how adept were those Bromley crews at getting another bus to do all the work! Some crews seemed to confine themselves to Beckenham,War Memorial to Widmore Green in the peaks, none of them scheduled journeys, leaving their departure times until a 'through' bus appeared to slot in behind, then overtaking with a flourish when the terminus was almost reached. If I could recreate any London bus route for a day, it would be the 227, crew-worked by RFs of course.
 

317 forever

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Hi, What about:- (Maybe some are still used!!)
Herne Hill 'Hurst Street' on the 3's
Penge 'Crooked Billet' on the 227's
Lower Sydenham 'Fairlawn Park' on the 75 and 108B
Widmore Green on the 227's
Peckham 'Heaton Arms' 12
Brixton 'George Canning' 3
Mottingham Village on the 126
Southborough on the old 94 road
Keston 'Fox' on the 146
Regards
Mike

Route 40 used to terminate at Herne Hill Post Office until 1994. It was then diverted to Dulwich Plough - itself replaced since then by Dulwich Library - and replaced by route 68 terminating at Norwood Garage supplemented by new route 468 continuing to South Croydon Garage.

Routes 47 and 229 used to terminate at Farnborough until replaced by a through route 261 in 1982.
 

Busaholic

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Route 40 used to terminate at Herne Hill Post Office until 1994. It was then diverted to Dulwich Plough - itself replaced since then by Dulwich Library - and replaced by route 68 terminating at Norwood Garage supplemented by new route 468 continuing to South Croydon Garage.

Routes 47 and 229 used to terminate at Farnborough until replaced by a through route 261 in 1982.

I saw far more of Farnborough,George than I wished, regardless of my love of buses. In 1968/9 worked for Bromley Council on mobile library service, and one day a week was in a trailer full of books plonked down in the centre of the triangle that comprised the terminus for the 51 on one side and the 47 on another side.On a cold winter;s day we had to unpick the lock and had to keep gloves and scarves on. Oh well, I was young and carefree.
 

Mike99

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Hi,
I was born in Penge in 58, and got the bus and train bug in about 1968, I spent many an hour at the Pawleyne Arms and the Crooked Billet in Penge bus spotting, only 1 in 3 227's went up to Crystal Palace, my wife and I were in infants and junior school together in Penge, she lived at Crystal Palace and had to get the RF on the 227 home everyday.

Long Lane 'The Glade' was I think a very rare turning point for the 54 road, as was Addiscombe Road 'Shirley Road'

I was a conductor out of Elmers End as soon as I turned 18, in July 76 and a driver out of Elmers End in September 79 and then a driver out of Norwood after that.

On the routemaster blinds at ED we had Penge 'Crooked Billet' a possible but rarely used turning point from Norwood Junction, Elmers End Garage or Anerley, and Penge 'Pawleyne Arms' in use on the Boxing Day schedules when terminating form the north.

We also had Shepherds Bush Green, Shepherds Bush 'Wells Road' and Shepherds Bush 'Princess Victoria'.

I was loaned to TB quite often as a conducter and worked a RT on the 94 through to Sidcup Staion in the morning peak on one occasion!

Regards
Mike



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi,
From Elmers End we worked the 12 road through from Norwood Junction to Harlesden 'Willesden Junction' therefore having use of many terminus,
New Drivers, and conductors, (and Road{point} Inspector's!!) found the combination of Westminster, Whitehall 'Horse Guards' and Charing Cross confusing.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Westminster' the stop outside of St Thomas Hospital was served and then the next and final stop (off line of the conventional route) was on Victoria Embankment next to Westminster Station. Buses then continued light to Horse Guards Avenue to stand outside the MOD. Buses then departing left into Whitehall to serve the request stop outside the Banqueting Rooms opposite Horse Guards back on Line of Route.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Whitehall Horse Guards' the last stop in service was the request stop northbound at Horse Guards, the correct procedure was to then turn sharp right into Horse Guards Avenue left onto Victoria Embankment and left onto Northumberland Avenue and to stand in the middle of the road. Departure was via Northumberland Avenue left into Whitehall and serve the first compulsory stop just by Gt Scotland Yard
.
Finally,If curtailed at Charing Cross, the final stopwould be on the South West arm of Trafalgar Square by Springs Gardens and then by using the U turn slip at the foot of Haymarket buses would then procede out of service via the North and East sides of Trafalgar Square to stand facing the river in the middle of Northumberland Avenue. Departure was the reverse route to those terminating at Whitehall 'Horse Guards'

It was a mystery why the 12 was blinded for Charing Cross as technically the station was not served and not Trafalgar Square (as in later years it was) which was the terminating point.

One strange and rare possibility was that 2 number 12's could stand bonnet to bonnet in the middle of Northumberland Avenue, both showing the same southern destination, departing the stand in opposite directions.

We also had a duty in the evening peak that operated Norwood Junction to Oxford Circus, light to Piccadilly Circus, to restart at the compulsory stop at the foot of Regent Street and then in service back to ED

Regards
Mike
 
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Busaholic

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Hi,
I was born in Penge in 58, and got the bus and train bug in about 1968, I spent many an hour at the Pawleyne Arms and the Crooked Billet in Penge bus spotting, only 1 in 3 227's went up to Crystal Palace, my wife and I were in infants and junior school together in Penge, she lived at Crystal Palace and had to get the RF on the 227 home everyday.

Long Lane 'The Glade' was I think a very rare turning point for the 54 road, as was Addiscombe Road 'Shirley Road'

I was a conductor out of Elmers End as soon as I turned 18, in July 76 and a driver out of Elmers End in September 79 and then a driver out of Norwood after that.

On the routemaster blinds at ED we had Penge 'Crooked Billet' a possible but rarely used turning point from Norwood Junction, Elmers End Garage or Anerley, and Penge 'Pawleyne Arms' in use on the Boxing Day schedules when terminating form the north.

We also had Shepherds Bush Green, Shepherds Bush 'Wells Road' and Shepherds Bush 'Princess Victoria'.

I was loaned to TB quite often as a conducter and worked a RT on the 94 through to Sidcup Staion in the morning peak on one occasion!

Regards
Mike



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi,
From Elmers End we worked the 12 road through from Norwood Junction to Harlesden 'Willesden Junction' therefore having use of many terminus,
New Drivers, and conductors, (and Road{point} Inspector's!!) found the combination of Westminster, Whitehall 'Horse Guards' and Charing Cross confusing.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Westminster' the stop outside of St Thomas Hospital was served and then the next and final stop (off line of the conventional route) was on Victoria Embankment next to Westminster Station. Buses then continued light to Horse Guards Avenue to stand outside the MOD. Buses then departing left into Whitehall to serve the request stop outside the Banqueting Rooms opposite Horse Guards back on Line of Route.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Whitehall Horse Guards' the last stop in service was the request stop northbound at Horse Guards, the correct procedure was to then turn sharp right into Horse Guards Avenue left onto Victoria Embankment and left onto Northumberland Avenue and to stand in the middle of the road. Departure was via Northumberland Avenue left into Whitehall and serve the first compulsory stop just by Gt Scotland Yard
.
Finally,If curtailed at Charing Cross, the final stopwould be on the South West arm of Trafalgar Square by Springs Gardens and then by using the U turn slip at the foot of Haymarket buses would then procede out of service via the North and East sides of Trafalgar Square to stand facing the river in the middle of Northumberland Avenue. Departure was the reverse route to those terminating at Whitehall 'Horse Guards'

It was a mystery why the 12 was blinded for Charing Cross as technically the station was not served and not Trafalgar Square (as in later years it was) which was the terminating point.

One strange and rare possibility was that 2 number 12's could stand bonnet to bonnet in the middle of Northumberland Avenue, both showing the same southern destination, departing the stand in opposite directions.

We also had a duty in the evening peak that operated Norwood Junction to Oxford Circus, light to Piccadilly Circus, to restart at the compulsory stop at the foot of Regent Street and then in service back to ED

Regards
Mike

Hi Mike,
Great reminiscences! ED was a strange garage insofar as only really existing to serve the 12, which must at one time have comprised at least 75% of its allocation. I think I'm right in saying that from the mid to late 1950s up to its truncations at both ends ED was the only garage that worked the entire 12, but never in one journey. The only time I ever went on the peak hour extension to Park Royal it was on an ED RT.

There was at one time in the 1960s a p.m. peak hour ED bus that worked from its home garage to Oxford Circus, terminated, then did a journey to Harlesden to give an empty bus from Oxford St. The westernmost allocation at Shepherds Bush



fluctuated over the years and it always seemed somehow reluctant to work the route, especially into the depths of South London!

I can never remember seeing a Charing Cross destination on a 12 - Trafalgar Square didn't feature on any destination blind in those days as far as I know - but do remember standing at Elephant and seeing bus after bus come by blinded to Whitehall, Horse Guards, Westminster or Elephant, especially at the start of the p.m peak. Charing Cross was a disingenuous destination in any case because what is now Embankment Station was called Charing Cross in those days! Westminster, Horse Guards Avenue was the destination blind used for buses terminating at Embankment from the west (like the 168.)

Addiscombe Road, Shirley Road was quite a regular turning point for late-running 54s over the years, but used more often by Catford (TL) buses, I guess, to maintain the service over the easternmost part of the route.

Regards,
Tim
 

Mike99

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Yes you are quite correct ED worked the whole route 12, through to South Croydon Garage (pre 12A) through to Harlesden.
Our very early turns had shorts from Harlesden to Park Royal 'Trading Estate', our Duty 1, did ED to Harlesden two shorts to Park Royal, then Harlesden to Norwood Junction then into ED, a one bus duty.

I once saw an early journey on a Sunday morning pass through Penge en route to Norwood Junction, an S garage Routemaster, but I think this was more likely an RM transfer to Peckham and the garage stencil not being changed.

I never saw an S vehicle south of Dulwich 'Plough' and I think I'm right that Shepherds Bush drivers hadn't route learned south of that point either.

On Sundays back in the 60's and very early 70's ED worked through from South Croydon Garage to Shepherd's Bush, TC's weekday allocation never went past Oxford Circus (happy to stand corrected on that) and again, possibly, TC drivers didn't know the road beyond Oxford CIrcus.

Regards
Mike
 
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317 forever

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The mention of Crooked Billet reminds me of when some route 58 journeys terminated at Walthamstow Crooked Billet. I doubt it has been used as a terminus for a while, although I think route W11 terminated there in the 90s.
 

91104

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How about Becontree Heath. Although not exactly a bus station more a glorified bus stand but when I used to live there you had the 5,25,129 and 173 terminating there plus eastbound buses on the 87 and 175 calling whereas now I believe it's only the 150 terminating and buses no longer pick up passengers there but at a stop on the main road.
 

Busaholic

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Yes you are quite correct ED worked the whole route 12, through to South Croydon Garage (pre 12A) through to Harlesden.
Our very early turns had shorts from Harlesden to Park Royal 'Trading Estate', our Duty 1, did ED to Harlesden two shorts to Park Royal, then Harlesden to Norwood Junction then into ED, a one bus duty.

I once saw an early journey on a Sunday morning pass through Penge en route to Norwood Junction, an S garage Routemaster, but I think this was more likely an RM transfer to Peckham and the garage stencil not being changed.

I never saw an S vehicle south of Dulwich 'Plough' and I think I'm right that Shepherds Bush drivers hadn't route learned south of that point either.

On Sundays back in the 60's and very early 70's ED worked through from South Croydon Garage to Shepherd's Bush, TC's weekday allocation never went past Oxford Circus (happy to stand corrected on that) and again, possibly, TC drivers didn't know the road beyond Oxford CIrcus.

Regards
Mike

I never saw an S vehicle going south of Dulwich. Plough nor a TC vehicle west of Oxford Circus either, and my memories go back to the late 1950's. Indeed, TC only worked as far north as OC on a Saturday, Monday to Friday it was Elephant.

I think I know (and remember, but only in the vaguest detail) when Penge, Crooked Billet WAS used by the 12 and it was Christmas Day. Let me explain - in the late '60s/early 70s there were still Christmas Day services on a few, mainly 'trunk' routes like the 12 at severely-widened headways even compared to Sunday mornings. In most cases only part of the route was covered and, with one or two exceptions, only one garage operated even where as many as three normally did. The 12 was solely operated by TC on this day and no further west than Oxford Circus, the 88 operated by S catering for the OC to Shepherds Bush clientele.

I joined LT in 1969, first as a bus schedules trainee, and one of the first jobs I was given to do was some Xmas Day schedules because they were basically very easy to do. The reason they were easy was because they were all straight shifts without a break (no canteen facilities available) and at the time a straight shift, or duty, had a maximum time of 6 hours.

For the sake of the staff, incuding engineers,etc, it was therefore decided that the buses should operate between 0930 and 1630, without exception, with all buses being out by 10.30. This meant, with only one garage per route, that lots of short journeys had to be performed at the start of the shift in order to get a full service going in each direction, and at the end of the shifts, in reverse, lots of buses would converge on their home garage virtually in convoy, the antithesis of normal good practice. Now, at this distance in time, I cannot be sure I compiled the Christmas Day schedule for the 12 in 1970, but I think I did, and I would have had to look at the list of all turning points and selected a few, including some never normally used in scheduled service, to get the service going and to curtail it at the witching hour, and I'm pretty sure Crooked Billet duly appeared, to provide a first service southbound from Penge and the last destination northbound soon after 1600.

Incidentally, the 12 was given as the obstacle to bus schedules being computerised in the early 70s, as no computer could apparently cope with four garages being allocated together to the same route, the 175 being the other (unlikely) example!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In above, meant to say ED, not TC, was sole Xmas Day garage.
 

Mike99

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Hi, I joined LT in 1974,as a Bus Operating Trainee, it was like being an apprentice, spending a few weeks in each department or office, the plan being when you reached 18 you would become a conductor and then carry on with a career.
I had a spell in the schedules department in mid 1975 when I think David Jones was the boss.
I remember as well the 12 being the benchmark for all compilers, I believe it was one persons job to be permanently on it.
Regards
Mike
 

Antman

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Being born and brought up in Croydon I remember -
Addiscombe- Black Horse
Terminus of short workings of no. 12 also 59 A
in the early-mid 1960s I was travelling to school from East Croydon to Norwood Jn using route. 12 and in the peak hours these short workings I had to avoid.
Unsure when this terminal closed..?
Croydon- Fairfield Road
Back in the late 1950s-early 1960s there was a bus terminal off Fairfield Road. The site is now occupied by Fairfield Halls.
Thornton Heath -Nursery Road - Unsure if or when disused.
Terminus of routes 130A,166 and 190 back in 1960s

The only one in London I am aware of is
Waterloo Station- Waterloo Road
Under Waterloo Station adjacent Waterloo Road. Site is now occupied by extension of the Underground station entrance.

Re Addiscombe Black Horse, do you mean route 50 rather than 59A? The 50 was replaced (in the early 70's I think?) by the 289 which was RT before being converted to SMS and extended to Elmers End and at one point to Beckenham Junction to assist the 54 on this busy section, that was pre Tramlink of course.

I think the Black Horse was no longer used as a terminus after Sept 1st 1990 when the double deck 312 replaced the single deck 12A and short workings ceased. The stand remained in situ for some years even though changes to the road layout meant it would be impossible to turn a bus there anyway.

The 12A had been restricted to single deckers by the railway bridge near Bingham Road which was removed to make way for Tramlink, RT's had been able to get under the bridge but not RM's or DMS's.
 

Antman

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Another S. E. Londoner! You bring tears to my eyes with memories of some of those. The only one I can say with certainty is still used is Peckham Rye, Heaton Arms on the 12, but I see no reason why Lower Sydenham should not still be used, particularly now the 75 is back at its rightful home of Catford. Keston, Fox terminus was the reason the 146 remained crew-operated for so much longer than would otherwise be the case as it required a reversing movement, so these journeys were abandoned on opo conversion. Herne Hill on the 3 was still being used until the pedestrianisation outside Herne Hill Station: don't know the position now. South Croxted Road (turn at the roundabout) is OK still.Mottingham,Lowfield Road I remember from the 161, but don't recollect 126s using it. Widmore Green on the 227s plus Chislehurst Station, oh yes, how adept were those Bromley crews at getting another bus to do all the work! Some crews seemed to confine themselves to Beckenham,War Memorial to Widmore Green in the peaks, none of them scheduled journeys, leaving their departure times until a 'through' bus appeared to slot in behind, then overtaking with a flourish when the terminus was almost reached. If I could recreate any London bus route for a day, it would be the 227, crew-worked by RFs of course.

Lower Sydenham Fairlawn Park fell out of use in the early 1990's I think, the 75 was rerouted and no longer served that part of Sydenham and if the new 202 had to be curtailed presumably the new Sainsburys down the road where the 194 terminates would be used?

The Mottingham turn is still used occasionally for the 161, possibly the 124 and 126 as well?
 

Busaholic

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Re Addiscombe Black Horse, do you mean route 50 rather than 59A? The 50 was replaced (in the early 70's I think?) by the 289 which was RT before being converted to SMS and extended to Elmers End and at one point to Beckenham Junction to assist the 54 on this busy section, that was pre Tramlink of course.
.

Depends how long your memory stretches! The 59A certainly was terminating there on a Saturday until the late '50s, may have been a consequential loss from the 1958 bus strike.
 

Mike99

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Hi, Is Brockley Rise, at Stondon Park still used? 94 on Sats, used to terminate way back in the 1970's and of course the 36A M-F peaks
 
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CatfordCat

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Hi, Is Brockley Rise, at Stondon Park still used? 94 on Sats, used to terminate way back in the 1970's and of course the 36A M-F peaks

Brockley Rise is now the daily terminus of the 172 (the southern end of the old 141) and the P12.

The stand is now on Honor Oak Park which I think is different to the stand that the 36A / 94 used to use.
 

Busaholic

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Brockley Rise is now the daily terminus of the 172 (the southern end of the old 141) and the P12.

The stand is now on Honor Oak Park which I think is different to the stand that the 36A / 94 used to use.

There was also a time in the 70s and 80s when a lot of 122s weren't scheduled through to the Palace offpeak, terminating at Forest Hill or Brockley Rise instead, so that other than Sundays and evenings there were always buses there. A mate owned an oldies record shop right opposite the bus stand and I spent rather too much time (and money!) there.
 

stait.john

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Tottenham (Bruce Grove) the old 171 northern terminus, I do believe the Bus Stand is still there but due to road changes and parking I'd say it's inaccessible today.
 

Antman

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Hi,
I was born in Penge in 58, and got the bus and train bug in about 1968, I spent many an hour at the Pawleyne Arms and the Crooked Billet in Penge bus spotting, only 1 in 3 227's went up to Crystal Palace, my wife and I were in infants and junior school together in Penge, she lived at Crystal Palace and had to get the RF on the 227 home everyday.

Long Lane 'The Glade' was I think a very rare turning point for the 54 road, as was Addiscombe Road 'Shirley Road'

I was a conductor out of Elmers End as soon as I turned 18, in July 76 and a driver out of Elmers End in September 79 and then a driver out of Norwood after that.

On the routemaster blinds at ED we had Penge 'Crooked Billet' a possible but rarely used turning point from Norwood Junction, Elmers End Garage or Anerley, and Penge 'Pawleyne Arms' in use on the Boxing Day schedules when terminating form the north.

We also had Shepherds Bush Green, Shepherds Bush 'Wells Road' and Shepherds Bush 'Princess Victoria'.

I was loaned to TB quite often as a conducter and worked a RT on the 94 through to Sidcup Staion in the morning peak on one occasion!

Regards
Mike



--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi,
From Elmers End we worked the 12 road through from Norwood Junction to Harlesden 'Willesden Junction' therefore having use of many terminus,
New Drivers, and conductors, (and Road{point} Inspector's!!) found the combination of Westminster, Whitehall 'Horse Guards' and Charing Cross confusing.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Westminster' the stop outside of St Thomas Hospital was served and then the next and final stop (off line of the conventional route) was on Victoria Embankment next to Westminster Station. Buses then continued light to Horse Guards Avenue to stand outside the MOD. Buses then departing left into Whitehall to serve the request stop outside the Banqueting Rooms opposite Horse Guards back on Line of Route.

If curtailed to terminate at 'Whitehall Horse Guards' the last stop in service was the request stop northbound at Horse Guards, the correct procedure was to then turn sharp right into Horse Guards Avenue left onto Victoria Embankment and left onto Northumberland Avenue and to stand in the middle of the road. Departure was via Northumberland Avenue left into Whitehall and serve the first compulsory stop just by Gt Scotland Yard
.
Finally,If curtailed at Charing Cross, the final stopwould be on the South West arm of Trafalgar Square by Springs Gardens and then by using the U turn slip at the foot of Haymarket buses would then procede out of service via the North and East sides of Trafalgar Square to stand facing the river in the middle of Northumberland Avenue. Departure was the reverse route to those terminating at Whitehall 'Horse Guards'

It was a mystery why the 12 was blinded for Charing Cross as technically the station was not served and not Trafalgar Square (as in later years it was) which was the terminating point.

One strange and rare possibility was that 2 number 12's could stand bonnet to bonnet in the middle of Northumberland Avenue, both showing the same southern destination, departing the stand in opposite directions.

We also had a duty in the evening peak that operated Norwood Junction to Oxford Circus, light to Piccadilly Circus, to restart at the compulsory stop at the foot of Regent Street and then in service back to ED

Regards
Mike



I think the 'Long Lane The Glade' turn was only used when the 54 (and 725) were diverted via Norwood Junction and Anerley due to a weight limit on the bridge over the Hayes Line near Elmers End in the late 60's or early 70's? There was a supplementary service along Long Lane.

The 'Addiscombe Road Shirley Road' turn was used quite a bit for late running 54's towards Croydon.
 

Busaholic

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Hi, I joined LT in 1974,as a Bus Operating Trainee, it was like being an apprentice, spending a few weeks in each department or office, the plan being when you reached 18 you would become a conductor and then carry on with a career.
I had a spell in the schedules department in mid 1975 when I think David Jones was the boss.
I remember as well the 12 being the benchmark for all compilers, I believe it was one persons job to be permanently on it.
Regards
Mike

Hi, in 1969 Norman Eagles was Schedules Superintendent, very old school, shortly to retire. Don't know who replaced him, but Dick Scudder was in charge of us trainees and I also remember Martin Elms, who went on to be one of the partners in the management buyout of London General.Schedules Dept. wasn't for me, too mathematical, and I became the very first Traffic Management trainee, working in both bus and underground departments. In retrospect, I probably should have forged a career on the underground side, in which some of my ideas were put into practice and I had some good relationships with senior managers, but I chose to go back to my first love, buses, and it never really worked out for me so I left. Just been a passion since then!

Cheers,Tim
 

Mike99

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Hi,
Is Streatham 'Criffel Avenue' still in use? Driving out of Norwood in the early 80's we had a am duty which terminated there from the north returning I think to Knightsbridge Station, creating an empty 137 at the start of Kings Avenue.
Regards
Mike
 

Be3G

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The mention of Crooked Billet reminds me of when some route 58 journeys terminated at Walthamstow Crooked Billet. I doubt it has been used as a terminus for a while, although I think route W11 terminated there in the 90s.

Almost – the W11 used Crooked Billet when the route was introduced in the late '80s. Whilst no buses are scheduled to terminate there now, it is still a curtailment point; the annoyingly poor reliability of the 215 means it gets a fair amount of use from that bus if nothing else!
 

Antman

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Depends how long your memory stretches! The 59A certainly was terminating there on a Saturday until the late '50s, may have been a consequential loss from the 1958 bus strike.

The 59A was a bit before my time;)

Another stand that has gone is at Green Street Green (on the A21) where buses used to stand on the pub forecourt years ago, the 51 or 51A if memory serves correct? The R1 and R11 stand on the road nowadays.
 

Busaholic

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The 59A was a bit before my time;)

Another stand that has gone is at Green Street Green (on the A21) where buses used to stand on the pub forecourt years ago, the 51 or 51A if memory serves correct? The R1 and R11 stand on the road nowadays.

Yes, the 51A and 51C. I think it was the last pub forecourt terminus in regular use on L.T., unless someone knows different. There are still other pubs named on blinds and timetables, of course, like Chislehurst, Gordon Arms, where the pubs themselves weren't actually utilised by the buses. S.E.
London and what was North Kent seems to have been an area where these proliferated. I believe Buses Annual did a feature on these once, but I'm afraid I can't be more specific.
 
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