First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[freetoview33]

I am also wondering what this 83 service will be!

 

[winston270twm]

Thing is Wessex introduced the 3, First then introduced more 309 trips, Wessex quickly withdrew the 3. Then First withdrew the additional 309 trips and it was back to how it was before. So Wessex seem perfectly happy to move out of the way.
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Also I'm surprised the 35 isn't starting from the Bus Station.

Unfortunately that's been a common problem with Rotala over the past few years, NXWM have pushed them off various longest established commercial routes. Arriva & now WMSNT have won a lot of Centro tendered work at the expense of Rotala's Diamond subsidiary based at the Long Acre B'ham HQ (which is currently for sale). That said Diamond are introducing a new commercial service against NXWM in Walsall from end of Oct which is a first in over 3 years. I suspect this is only as a result of Diamond loosing two further daytime Centro tenders and it provides continued work for the buses & drivers once they cease.

 

[freetoview33]

Another thing I'm amazed First haven't started a Bath - Bristol Airport service.

 

[swifty]

We don't actually know First are making any money on these routes that they have taken on commercially? They may be break even at best and simply designed to put the squeeze on Wessex. When it comes to 'massive complacency' I'm afraid First Group take 1stprize, due to years of high fares, poor quality services, little new vehicle investment and everything being dictated by Aberdeen HQ. First left the door open for the likes of Webberbus and only have themselves to blame, but that's another story.

They're probably not making much on them at the moment to be honest, but if they give them time to settle down I'm sure they'll begin to contribute. Even so it harks back to the Badgerline days of actually providing a useful network and being able to spread costs. The more routes First operate the more attractive their offering becomes to the passengers and they can begin to lock people in with their period tickets.

The Lockhead regime of cutting back to the bare minimum hasn't worked and the supertanker that is UK Bus is slowly beginning to turn and we've seen some real positives here in Bristol, touchcard, m-ticketing, fare revisions, the North Somerset service improvements, network growth etc. We've also seen the old First still lurking, look at what happened after the big fan fare over the X18 with the dedicated buses with BBC News etc, it's slowly been diluted and stopped working!
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Another thing I'm amazed First haven't started a Bath - Bristol Airport service.

Really? I'm amazed the A4 is still going!!

 

[Martin1988]

If anyone is able to answer I would be interested to find out, given the fact that the 82 serves SGS Filton, does it get packed out with college students at the start/end of the day?

When I was studying there a few years back most people from Yate seemed to use either the 581 or the train, despite the fact neither stopped outside the college campus so I would be interested to know if it has changed at all now that there is an all day service which stops there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Abus have established commercial routes and could give Wessex/Rotala something commercial to build on if they could be persuaded to sell out at a decent price? Maybe Wessex would be better looking to fill gaps in First's network rather than go head to head, but they need to do something and start to move away from solely contracted routes that can easily be lost.

We don't actually know First are making any money on these routes that they have taken on commercially? They may be break even at best and simply designed to put the squeeze on Wessex. When it comes to 'massive complacency' I'm afraid First Group take 1stprize, due to years of high fares, poor quality services, little new vehicle investment and everything being dictated by Aberdeen HQ. First left the door open for the likes of Webberbus and only have themselves to blame, but that's another story.

Indeed, it is another story and we were talking about Rotala. The routes will not enjoy the same margin as the core city routes but they cover their direct operating costs as well as soaking up overhead. One of the single biggest issues with old First was the pursuit of unrealistic margins so even modest profits were lost at the altar of hurdle rates.

I don't know if Abus would want to sell to Rotala. I fear that Rotala missed the boat. They could've capitalised and had a commercial network in South Glos and developed new services but didn't take the opportunity. Now First have changed their philosophy, you can't see them permitting others to take much in market share but to reclaim some of what was lost
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They're probably not making much on them at the moment to be honest, but if they give them time to settle down I'm sure they'll begin to contribute. Even so it harks back to the Badgerline days of actually providing a useful network and being able to spread costs. The more routes First operate the more attractive their offering becomes to the passengers and they can begin to lock people in with their period tickets.

The Lockhead regime of cutting back to the bare minimum hasn't worked and the supertanker that is UK Bus is slowly beginning to turn and we've seen some real positives here in Bristol, touchcard, m-ticketing, fare revisions, the North Somerset service improvements, network growth etc. We've also seen the old First still lurking, look at what happened after the big fan fare over the X18 with the dedicated buses with BBC News etc, it's slowly been diluted and stopped working!
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Really? I'm amazed the A4 is still going!!

Totally agree about First. Also the A4 - not seen double figures on it yet.

 

[Colly405]

I am also wondering what this 83 service will be!

Random speculation, but maybe the short 81s are going to be extended to Southmead Hospital?

 

[winston270twm]

I don't know if Abus would want to sell to Rotala. I fear that Rotala missed the boat. They could've capitalised and had a commercial network in South Glos and developed new services but didn't take the opportunity. Now First have changed their philosophy, you can't see them permitting others to take much in market share but to reclaim some of what was lost

I totally agree with the above comment, it was a missed opportunity. Wessex could have developed their own commercial network & started some head to head competition against First whilst First had no money/no will to fight back.....

I think they're going to find it extremely difficult to expand any further and possible retain their current workload going forward.

 

[swifty]

Class 33 will get excited by this no doubt, First Bristol services changes for 02 Novemebr are beginning to appear with VOSA, no doubt things will become clearer in due course.

 

[Private Baxter]

Another thing I'm amazed First haven't started a Bath - Bristol Airport service.

As GrandWazzoo said, this service rarely picks up more than ten passengers. It only started last year, and had, I think, been there for the taking for years, but no company ever bothered. If there had been a real demand for such a service, First (or maybe even Badgerline) would have introduced it long ago. First probably are not too surprised it doesn't do great trade, which is, nonetheless a shame. Whenever there is need for a new service anywhere, First are always the ones to introduce it, because they have done the research and know one is worth putting on. Until just over two years ago there had never been a direct Bristol to Radstock service, then First introduced the 379. There was a gap, First recognized it, and filled it. Why did not another operator think about it? Instead the others just opt for supported services, or copycat services already operated by First.

For the record, I have used the A4 once, but most other times I have gone to the airport, I have found it just as quick to use the X39, followed by A1, and there is very little difference in price.

(If you time it really well, you can use a 121 to get to Bristol Airport, which I have also done, and can be done on a £7 ticket, but admit that is not always conveinient, esp if you have a flight to catch!!)

 

[swifty]

Until just over two years ago there had never been a direct Bristol to Radstock service, then First introduced the 379. There was a gap, First recognized it, and filled it. Why did not another operator think about it? Instead the others just opt for supported services, or copycat services already operated by First.

IIRC there was a bit of furore over the 379 when Wessex won the tender for the additional off peak services and then First decided they could operate it commercially to keep Wessex out of the way. I can't remember the full story p, maybe Matt will know?

 

[matt_splat]

at the time Wessex did win the 379 at the same time they won the 178 evenings.

Wessex was going to run a service every two hours running Radstock - Westfield - Midsomer Norton - Tescos - Farrington gurney then down the A37 into Bristol first then decided it wanted to run commercially and would extend the service to shepton I believe at the time it was extended so a manager who's now moved to Weymouth could commute to work by bus not sure how true that is tho

 

[DaveHarries]

Hi all,

The VOSA registrations for 11th September contain changes for the following First Bristol routes:

6, 7 City Centre - Staple Hill
17 Southmead Hospital - Keynsham
24 Southmead Hospital - Ashton Vale
40/40A/41 Broadmead - Cribbs Causeway / Avonmouth

In all those cases the changes are for the Route and Timetable of those services. In the same registrations, and from First S&A, comes the cancellation of Service 224 (Bristol - Filton College).

The above to take effect from 02-Nov-2014. It is interesting to see that the changes for Services 6 & 7 do not mention Kingswood. It will also be interesting to see what (if anything) else crops up.

HTIOI,
Dave

 

[windnoise69]

When are the next batch of new Streetlights due to appear in Bristol?

 

[Private Baxter]

at the time Wessex did win the 379 at the same time they won the 178 evenings.

Wessex was going to run a service every two hours running Radstock - Westfield - Midsomer Norton - Tescos - Farrington gurney then down the A37 into Bristol first then decided it wanted to run commercially and would extend the service to shepton I believe at the time it was extended so a manager who's now moved to Weymouth could commute to work by bus not sure how true that is tho

I don't know how far the 379 goes back, but originally it was a daily return service Radstock to Bristol, operated by MH, the at some point was transferred to WS, then extended to Shepton, then in 2012 became hourly. This was probably wasn't the best example to make my original point, not least becasue it was originally part funded by a housing developer.

I think my point however was, whenever there is a route for a potantially successful bus route is identified, it will most likely be First which spots it.

When are the next batch of new Streetlights due to appear in Bristol?

I was also wondering. Thought they's be here by now. Guess we know that they will be 64 reg, rather than 14 reg.

 

[ValleyLines142]

And whilst it's possible (and common) for other double deckers, and even sometimes eclipses) to work these routes, the 62 reg Enviros NEVER work another route.

Why is that? I don't understand that to be honest.

You always get an interesting vehicle working a service not normally operated by that vehicle! (e.g. Enviro 400s on the 319)

 

[swifty]

Why is that? I don't know understand that to be honest.

You always get an interesting vehicle working a service not normally operated by that vehicle! (e.g. Enviro 400s on the 319)

Because they're specifically allocated for the Park & Ride! The only drivers type trained on them are the P&R drivers, who also happen to be on a seperate rota to service work.

I don't see why you'd expect them to be used on normal services anyway, it'd be like the Airport Eclipses on the 75....

 

[vicbury]

Because they're specifically allocated for the Park & Ride! The only drivers type trained on them are the P&R drivers, who also happen to be on a seperate rota to service work.

I don't see why you'd expect them to be used on normal services anyway, it'd be like the Airport Eclipses on the 75....

But this is Bath depot we are talking about, anything can happen! Where else sends double dockers and Solos in a row on one route?!

 

[DaveHarries]

Because they're specifically allocated for the Park & Ride! The only drivers type trained on them are the P&R drivers, who also happen to be on a seperate rota to service work.

I don't see why you'd expect them to be used on normal services anyway, it'd be like the Airport Eclipses on the 75....

Speaking of stuff that is normally allocated to Park & Ride routes I was interested to see, while driving to work on Thursday morning, a red Long Ashton P&R Gemini turn onto the bottom of the incline at Temple Meads, presumably on a 70 rather than a 903!

Dave

 

[swifty]

But this is Bath depot we are talking about, anything can happen! Where else sends double dockers and Solos in a row on one route?!

Yes that may be true, but have you ever seen a P&R bus on general routes since the introduction of the Tridents?

Bridgwater, as it happens, service 21!

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Speaking of stuff that is normally allocated to Park & Ride routes I was interested to see, while driving to work on Thursday morning, a red Long Ashton P&R Gemini turn onto the bottom of the incline at Temple Meads, presumably on a 70 rather than a 903!

Dave

Interesting, they were commonly used on the 309 shorts in between layovers at the bus station as well.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Speaking of stuff that is normally allocated to Park & Ride routes I was interested to see, while driving to work on Thursday morning, a red Long Ashton P&R Gemini turn onto the bottom of the incline at Temple Meads, presumably on a 70 rather than a 903!

Dave

I'd presume it wasn't on a 70 A defect or route learning more likely
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Why is that? I don't know understand that to be honest.

You always get an interesting vehicle working a service not normally operated by that vehicle! (e.g. Enviro 400s on the 319)

In the two years they've been here, I can't recall seeing or hearing of them on any route other than P&R. In fact, same goes for the preceding B7s.

 

[matt_splat]

it sounds like wells have lots some b7s to Bristol for the new uwe routes

 

[ValleyLines142]

Because they're specifically allocated for the Park & Ride! The only drivers type trained on them are the P&R drivers, who also happen to be on a seperate rota to service work.

I don't see why you'd expect them to be used on normal services anyway, it'd be like the Airport Eclipses on the 75....

Well the normal Eclipses go on the A1!

But this is Bath depot we are talking about, anything can happen! Where else sends double dockers and Solos in a row on one route?!

Exactly. The 319 the other day had a Gemini, an B7/ALX400 Trident, a Volvo B10L and a Streetlite was also on in the evening!

 

[Private Baxter]

it sounds like wells have lots some b7s to Bristol for the new uwe routes

Really?! I didn't think they could afford to lose any. Though that might explain why another marshall has shown up. Not much of a trade!

It might also explain why AXL darts were on 173 the other day. But I really hope you're wrong!

 

[matt_splat]

the b7s have moved to hengrove for all this new uwe work

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

the b7s have moved to hengrove for all this new uwe work

The 376 was still all Eclipse today so is this taking the ones off the 173 (only 3) and also will they acquire the X49 ones (which would be more sensible)?

What Darts have gone to WS? If they're heading onto the 173, don't know how the capacity will hold up and won't that go against the GBBN commitment?

 

[Private Baxter]

That's a real shame! How many, do you know? Perhaps it's only temporary, as WS continues to downgrade its fleet.

I guess that means B10s back on 173, whilst darts move to 377?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well the normal Eclipses go on the A1!



Exactly. The 319 the other day had a Gemini, an B7/ALX400 Trident, a Volvo B10L and a Streetlite was also on in the evening!

I think the point is that standard stuff does appear on the Bath P&R (Geminis but also the odd ALX400) and the A1 (Eclipses) but NOT the other way round. In 8 years, I can't recall a Bath P&R B7 or e400 appearing on a local route (like the 14) let alone anything like the X39.

The 319 is the classic cinderella route and can (and does) get most things but it won't see an e400 for a while.

Observations today were 42964 (I think) working the 309 and a UID Marshall Dart on the 121 plus 42701 (shed!) on the 9!!


ps what's happened to Swifty's avatar...... Are we awaiting a Dorset Transit logo???

 

[CD]

That's a real shame! How many, do you know? Perhaps it's only temporary, as WS continues to downgrade its fleet.

I guess that means B10s back on 173, whilst darts move to 377?

Hopefully not.
66106-8 have 47 seats, 66100 and 66160 have 44.
42730/31 have 37, 42738 has 38.
Have you ever been on the morning and afternoon 377s that Strode College students use? They are F&S with a Renown.

 

[swifty]

Hi all,

The VOSA registrations for 11th September contain changes for the following First Bristol routes:

In all those cases the changes are for the Route and Timetable of those services. In the same registrations, and from First S&A, comes the cancellation of Service 224 (Bristol - Filton College).

That's the only section that's been cancelled, the Dursley to Bristol section has been re numbered 88 and is due to start/finish in the bus stations. Probably something to do with GCC in light of the Cotswold Green and Stagecoach West changes?
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I think the point is that standard stuff does appear on the Bath P&R (Geminis but also the odd ALX400) and the A1 (Eclipses) but NOT the other way round. In 8 years, I can't recall a Bath P&R B7 or e400 appearing on a local route (like the 14) let alone anything like the X39.

The 319 is the classic cinderella route and can (and does) get most things but it won't see an e400 for a while.

Observations today were 42964 (I think) working the 309 and a UID Marshall Dart on the 121 plus 42701 (shed!) on the 9!!


ps what's happened to Swifty's avatar...... Are we awaiting a Dorset Transit logo???

At least someone can see what I'm getting at!

Could be.... Might be something else though