Chester-Liverpool Express

[merlodlliw]

You do see the name 'Cheshire Line Committee' on a building near Warrington when travelling on the CLC route.

Also a large CLC warehouse is situated near the tram depot at Birkenhead, it now houses Wirral Council.however the name lives on.

 

[185143]

The guards call it CLC! I was on a train that turned back at Glazebrook in February and the guard said to me that 'Cheshire lines' were down due to a tree on the line between GLZ and Birchwood. Particularly inconvenient as lots of people on that train including myself were going to Birchwood!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Shame there aren't more stations like Hooton with more than two through platforms, as you could have stoppers waiting for expresses to pass.

Hooton must have been quite an interesting and busy railway station to have been on in days of yore, with the branch line service from West Kirby terminating there until closure in 1962 (when I was 17) plus the services from Birkenhead to London passing by, in addition to the normal stopping services.
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Cheshire Lines Committee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_Lines_Committee

The name affectionately given by some (I don't think it's the engineers line reference) to the Liverpool - Manchester route via Widnes and Warrington.

You beat me to that explanation at the time that you made your posting. It makes me feel very old to hear of well-known acronyms for well-known past railway companies to be the cause of a request for clarification....:roll:
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CLC?

Sorry but I am unable to decipher it. Chassen Road?

Dear oh dear....Chassen Road is CSR....CLC is the 3-letter station code for Castle Cary railway station.

You are hereby summoned to make an appearance upon the Station Code Quiz for a period of seven days for making such a transgression...

 

[Polarbear]

Personally, I would love to see faster services on the longer Merseyrail routes. Unfortunately, I don't think it's very likely to happen for several reasons.

Firstly, Merseytravel aren't interested. The current preference is for "all stations" services to simplify timetables & not to "confuse" customers with a mix of stopping & semi-fast services.

Secondly, I think you would need some serious infrastructure improvements to facilitate express or skip-stop services. A while back, before the 15 min frequency started on the Chester line, I tried putting together a rudementry timetable for the Chester & Ellesmere Port line which had a stopping service every 15 minutes from Hooton to Liverpool (2 starting from Ellesmere Port), overlaid with two fast services each hour from Chester.

What I found is that the fast services invariably caught up the stoppers before they got to Birkenhead, which would defeat the object of running faster services. As a minimum, you would need to expand Hooton to allow overtaking and probably so something similar at Rock Ferry as well.

It's a pity really as I suspect there is quite a bit of untapped potential on this flow. Public perception is that the train service between Chester & Liverpool is slow and it has to be said that in many european countries, a service between two population centres such as Chester & Liverpool would also have a semi fast or regional express to duplicate the stopping service.

Ah well, at least the local bus operator thinks there's a market for an express service between Chester & Liverpool & I will vote with my feet.

http://http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travelling-around/timetables/AllTimetables/X8%20Liverpool%20-%20Chester%20(from%207%20September%202014).pdf

 

[martynbristow]

Well its a sad case MerseyTravel is deciding this :/
It would really help boast travel.
You would find fast trains catching up to the slows but it doesn't mean theres no point running a fast with a slow immediately leaving after, you can gets a good 13 head start.
It would make the business case for any upgrades, even if it was peak time only the commuters would love it.

Plus MerseyTravel with there simplification, this remanices the group moves at the pace of the slowest. Should we really allow such people to hold up development for everyone.

Really the service should orient around the largest contributors, travelling on it frequently you see that a lot of travellers don't pay throughout the nose like the rest of us.
If it focussed more on the business side maybe it would be a different story
But this is Merseytravel ... I've read the Liverpool Echo :P

 

[theshillito]

What I found is that the fast services invariably caught up the stoppers before they got to Birkenhead, which would defeat the object of running faster services. As a minimum, you would need to expand Hooton to allow overtaking and probably so something similar at Rock Ferry as well.

Hooton has 4 platforms and only 2 of them are really in use, though the unnumbered platform by the booking office isn't electrified though and one platform is a bay, but they'll need less track and land than if there was only the two platforms.

 

[martynbristow]

Hooton has 4 platforms and only 2 of them are really in use, though the unnumbered platform by the booking office isn't electrified though and one platform is a bay, but they'll need less track and land than if there was only the two platforms.

You could do something at Rock Ferry and Hooton in the long run.
I personally would like to see a trial before I spent my money, I know Merseytravel has a different idea

 

[Bevan Price]

Well its a sad case MerseyTravel is deciding this :/
It would really help boast travel.
You would find fast trains catching up to the slows but it doesn't mean theres no point running a fast with a slow immediately leaving after, you can gets a good 13 head start.
It would make the business case for any upgrades, even if it was peak time only the commuters would love it.

P

I don't think the track layout at Chester would allow that - I suspect that the minimum feasible gap between departures is at least 6 to 7 minutes. Before they could enter Chester station, incoming trains would have to wait at North Junction for departing trains to clear the single electrified line out of Platform 7.

 

[8H]

Birkenhead Woodside to beyond Hooton was four tracks apart from the tunnel immediately beyond Woodside, so of course there is still space to reinstate, except for the M53 bridge supports after Hooton, and the two newer stations at Eastham Rake and Bromborough Rake where the platforms foul the formation although the stations can be shifted. Fast trains will easily beat the car and achieve much stimulated patronage. Problem of course is cash. Woodside Paddington trains prior to March 1967 generally called Rock Ferry, and Hooton, or also Bromborough too.

 

[Statto]

A 9 minute delay that (especially on busy days) can easily turn into 15 minutes or more if left to run. It would lose its path round the loop and therefore causing delays in the area to itself and other trains, and with only around 5 mins turnaround at Chester, it would never make up the time! I should point out that, up until recently, this train would simply have been cancelled and sent empty up to Birkenhead.

Plus Merseyrail have a 4 minute turn around time at Chester,so 9 minutes late will delay the train for the train next journey from Chester & will be late rest of the day.

Not sure of the logistics, if expresses ran on the Southport line still 4tph from Liverpool, but think the expresses would depart 5-10 minutes before the stopper otherwise the expresses would catch the stopper by Formby.

 

[martynbristow]

Well with regards to the Chester platform, the electric runs right along the length doesn't it or if not it could be extended.
I've seen two units in Chester 7A&B ATW+Merseyrail
You could easily have it so the stopper comes in first then the fast comes in behind sharing platform 7.

I'm sure there would be a way of making it work, shaving ~10 minutes of the journey time becomes 20 on a round trip and for commuters it would really add up.
Remodelling somewhere to support overtaking fast trains would boast the passenger numbers.

They've spent a fortune doing it at Huyton

 

[Class83]

Reasons why this wont happen:

1: There physically isn't enough stock until they get new trains
2: The passenger numbers are quite spread out, so there aren't many obvious stops to miss out.
3: The loop is fairly congested anyway with Chester, Ellesmere Port, West Kirby and New Brighton Services which limits the number of paths for express trains.
4: I suspect that Merseyrail make more out of commuters from Bebington, Port Sunlight and Spital etc who pay for Peak/Season tickets than they do from pensioners using their concessionary pass to go between Liverpool and Chester for a nice day shopping.
5: How many actual Liverpool Stations-Chester journeys are made, there is probably a lot of Liverpool-Wirral and Wirral-Chester journeys.
6: How much time would it actually save, merseyrail trade on the one, self contained line simplicity thing, it generally works, when things go wrong, they go very wrong, very fast. Complexity is not something they're good at.

 

[Olaf]

Personally, I would love to see faster services on the longer Merseyrail routes. Unfortunately, I don't think it's very likely to happen for several reasons.

Firstly, Merseytravel aren't interested. The current preference is for "all stations" services to simplify timetables & not to "confuse" customers with a mix of stopping & semi-fast services.

Secondly, I think you would need some serious infrastructure improvements to facilitate express or skip-stop services. A while back, before the 15 min frequency started on the Chester line, I tried putting together a rudementry timetable for the Chester & Ellesmere Port line which had a stopping service every 15 minutes from Hooton to Liverpool (2 starting from Ellesmere Port), overlaid with two fast services each hour from Chester.

What I found is that the fast services invariably caught up the stoppers before they got to Birkenhead, which would defeat the object of running faster services. As a minimum, you would need to expand Hooton to allow overtaking and probably so something similar at Rock Ferry as well.

It's a pity really as I suspect there is quite a bit of untapped potential on this flow. Public perception is that the train service between Chester & Liverpool is slow and it has to be said that in many european countries, a service between two population centres such as Chester & Liverpool would also have a semi fast or regional express to duplicate the stopping service.

Ah well, at least the local bus operator thinks there's a market for an express service between Chester & Liverpool & I will vote with my feet.

http://http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travelling-around/timetables/AllTimetables/X8%20Liverpool%20-%20Chester%20(from%207%20September%202014).pdf

Network Rail investigated the options for a limited stop services on teh line to Chester on behalf of Merseytravel but they were not taken forward, possibly because of the change in the regime at Merseytravel a few years ago.

 

[martynbristow]

Well the number of people using the train to Chester
1. When on a rare occasion I go that way its popular
2. Its rare because it takes ages

Lack of rolling stock .. well they did postpone it for ages

 

[merlodlliw]

Well with regards to the Chester platform, the electric runs right along the length doesn't it or if not it could be extended.
I've seen two units in Chester 7A&B ATW+Merseyrail
You could easily have it so the stopper comes in first then the fast comes in behind sharing platform 7.

I'm sure there would be a way of making it work, shaving ~10 minutes of the journey time becomes 20 on a round trip and for commuters it would really add up.
Remodelling somewhere to support overtaking fast trains would boast the passenger numbers.

They've spent a fortune doing it at Huyton

The 0600 out of Wrexham terminates on platform 7 when ever I use it,the third rail runs most of platform 7,however when the ATW stops the third rail is cover protected, probably 7 B?

 

[Welshman]

In my experience, a good number of the Llandudno-Manchesters use 7a to avoid conflict with the incoming Manchester-Llandudnos.

 

[headshot119]

The 0600 out of Wrexham terminates on platform 7 when ever I use it,the third rail runs most of platform 7,however when the ATW stops the third rail is cover protected, probably 7 B?

I'm not sure what you mean the 3rd rail being cover protected?

Merseyrail used 7A a few years back when some work was done on the 7B end of the platform.

You could easily get an ATW in 7A, then two Merseyrail units in on top all at once, the platform is easily long enough. It happened at the giants event when a lot of the Chesters where 6 car.

 

[edwin_m]

I think Merseytravel and the other authorities would prefer to have a fast Liverpool-Chester service running via the Halton Curve (Mersey Dee Link, whatever). As discussed on various other threads, this also opens up other possibilities such as Chester to Liverpool Airport and Liverpool to North Wales. Running a fast Chester service on Merseyrail would undermine the case for that.

 

[L+Y]

Merseyrail express is something I thought ages ago as I used to live Ormskirk way and hated shuffling up the line.
The problem is how do you fit express trains into the current operation.
You could drop to 1 stopper and 1 fast every 20 minutes but you would probably run out of rolling stock.

I attach a timetable from 1969/70, prior to the severing of the line at Ormskirk. At this time there were stopping EMUs, semi-fast DMUs, and several Scottish expresses per day, so it gives an idea of how such a timetable could in theory be done.

 

[merlodlliw]

I'm not sure what you mean the 3rd rail being cover protected?

Merseyrail used 7A a few years back when some work was done on the 7B end of the platform.

You could easily get an ATW in 7A, then two Merseyrail units in on top all at once, the platform is easily long enough. It happened at the giants event when a lot of the Chesters where 6 car.

Its a cover over the third rail if I recall, it can easily be removed.I presume its there for safety reasons.

Also of the four tocs using Chester,Merseyrail is by far the busiest.

 

[headshot119]

Its a cover over the third rail if I recall, it can easily be removed.I presume its there for safety reasons.

Also of the four tocs using Chester,Merseyrail is by far the busiest.

You mean the wooden side panelling around the third rail ? That's only to stop people on the track accidentally brushing against it. It doesn't stop trains running.

 

[merlodlliw]

You mean the wooden side panelling around the third rail ? That's only to stop people on the track accidentally brushing against it. It doesn't stop trains running.

Last time I saw it,the top of the third rail was also covered
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Bring back Birkenhead to Paddongton expresses!

If only, of course the line was dual tracked all the way then,now we have Cinio Cwn (dogs dinner),between Rossett and Gresford.

 

[krus_aragon]

If only, of course the line was dual tracked all the way then,now we have Cinio Cwn (dogs dinner),between Rossett and Gresford.

I've never heard it put that way in Welsh. Is it a common turn of phrase down Wrexham way?

 

[martynbristow]

I think Merseytravel and the other authorities would prefer to have a fast Liverpool-Chester service running via the Halton Curve (Mersey Dee Link, whatever). As discussed on various other threads, this also opens up other possibilities such as Chester to Liverpool Airport and Liverpool to North Wales. Running a fast Chester service on Merseyrail would undermine the case for that.

Well it would be nice for the Halton Curve but I don't know if it really makes sense
10.4 million wow thats a lot.


http://www.runcornandwidnesweeklyne...ellor-announces-104m-redevelop-halton-7365449
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I attach a timetable from 1969/70, prior to the severing of the line at Ormskirk. At this time there were stopping EMUs, semi-fast DMUs, and several Scottish expresses per day, so it gives an idea of how such a timetable could in theory be done.

Thanks that is interesting.
35 minutes Preston to Liverpool, much better than the hour service from Northern and 20 minutes from Ormskirk, personally i think that would be the best way to boast business!

 

[Statto]

Reasons why this wont happen:

1: There physically isn't enough stock until they get new trains
2: The passenger numbers are quite spread out, so there aren't many obvious stops to miss out.
3: The loop is fairly congested anyway with Chester, Ellesmere Port, West Kirby and New Brighton Services which limits the number of paths for express trains.
4: I suspect that Merseyrail make more out of commuters from Bebington, Port Sunlight and Spital etc who pay for Peak/Season tickets than they do from pensioners using their concessionary pass to go between Liverpool and Chester for a nice day shopping.
5: How many actual Liverpool Stations-Chester journeys are made, there is probably a lot of Liverpool-Wirral and Wirral-Chester journeys.
6: How much time would it actually save, merseyrail trade on the one, self contained line simplicity thing, it generally works, when things go wrong, they go very wrong, very fast. Complexity is not something they're good at.

The loop is not that congested trains ran every 2 minutes in the peaks when the loop first opened.

Problem is constraints at Chester Station units take 8-10 minutes to turn around[including 4 minute layover] 4tph is the most Merseyrail can have on the Chester branch at the mo.

 

[martynbristow]

The loop is not that congested trains ran every 2 minutes in the peaks when the loop first opened.

Problem is constraints at Chester Station units take 8-10 minutes to turn around[including 4 minute layover] 4tph is the most Merseyrail can have on the Chester branch at the mo.

Well yes you could squeeze them through, although I don't think they had invented pram palaces back then and luggage was probably less.
I used to find during the day the Ellesmere Port train would cause a tiny bit of a problem. Although more trains should reduce the scrum getting on and off.

You could make a slow Hooton circular and a fast Chester

 

[razor89]

The loop is not that congested trains ran every 2 minutes in the peaks when the loop first opened.

Problem is constraints at Chester Station units take 8-10 minutes to turn around[including 4 minute layover] 4tph is the most Merseyrail can have on the Chester branch at the mo.

The loop is theoretically signalled for 2 min headways but only just. Last time I was at Liverpool Central Wirral I found the station starter signal took around 1 min 40 seconds to return to green following the passage of a train. There is absolutely no room for error when you're sending a train round every 2 mins.

Chester services during the day are timetabled only 4 mins turnaround at Chester.

RMT press release yesterday stated that Merseyrail/Merseytravel are supposedly planning to axe some peak time services on both Northern and Wirral lines. Been no comment from either organisation yet but if true it's very disappointing!

 

[jamesst]

The loop is theoretically signalled for 2 min headways but only just. Last time I was at Liverpool Central Wirral I found the station starter signal took around 1 min 40 seconds to return to green following the passage of a train. There is absolutely no room for error when you're sending a train round every 2 mins.

Chester services during the day are timetabled only 4 mins turnaround at Chester.

RMT press release yesterday stated that Merseyrail/Merseytravel are supposedly planning to axe some peak time services on both Northern and Wirral lines. Been no comment from either organisation yet but if true it's very disappointing!

Sadly it is true. They're looking to introduce a Saturday timetable 6 days a week with no peak time extras and a few 6 cars thrown in...

 

[prod_pep]

Sadly it is true. They're looking to introduce a Saturday timetable 6 days a week with no peak time extras and a few 6 cars thrown in...

No, not true according to Merseyrail themselves: http://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/spring-2015-timetable-statement.aspx.

 

[martynbristow]

No, not true according to Merseyrail themselves: http://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/spring-2015-timetable-statement.aspx.

Merseyrail have denied all knowledge, but read the RMT release.
Basically it reads .... someones not buying new trains ...

The RMT statements final paragraph is correct, Merseyrail and Merseytravel could be over extending themselves because how many miles the fleet can do before a new set is ready could be a problem.
It all comes down to money really