Valley Lines electrification project...or not as may now be the case

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We have been based at Porthcawl in our hotel for the last eight days and on the local BBC TV news a few days ago, mention was made that a tramway system may be considered over these lines rather than the electrification that seemed to be the original option. Has anyone any further news as to why a different system is being considered ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

We have been based at Porthcawl in our hotel for the last eight days and on the local BBC TV news a few days ago, mention was made that a tramway system may be considered over these lines rather than the electrification that seemed to be the original option. Has anyone any further news as to why a different system is being considered ?

Ian Walmsley who writes in Modern Railways has suggested it in a column in the past and the BBC have interviewed him in Cardiff recently as to it being anything more than a constructive suggestion from an industry figure I am unaware. The dispute is over "who pays" between the Welsh Government and Whitehall. Someone would still have to pay for the light rail option.

 

[anthony263]

I read Ian Walmsleys article on the possible use of tram-train's on the Cardiff Valley lines network rather than EMU's.

Certainly I thought he made a very good article especially when you look at journey times. The only routes which I dont think would be suitable for light rail would be the routes to Maesteg and Ebbw Vale which use the SWML for parts of their journeys.

The Cardiff Bay line if converted to light rail would allow an on street extension from the current Cardiff Bay station to other parts of the Cardiff Bay area

 

[Class377/5]

Roger Ford has stated that the GN 313s are being looked at for the Valley lines to provide a metro like service on the cheap so going over to tram or tram-train looks unlikely.

 

[WatcherZero]

Plan originally called for the 315's to be used but then there was thinking that despite being a little older the 313's were in better condition.

Alternative that has been seriously mooted is going for light rail rather than heavy rail, signalling and electrification costs are smaller and it may be cheaper overall despite new stock having to be procured, particularly as 313 or 315's might only be good for another five years anyway and practically soon as it became operational you would need to be ordering their replacements. The possibility of higher frequency, ease of new lines and street running has also tipped some in government to thinking it might produce a better end product.

 

[muddythefish]

So the Welsh Valleys (assuming the lines are electrified) will be getting clapped out units from the south east. Where have I heard that before ?

 

[petersi]

So the Welsh Valleys (assuming the lines are electrified) will be getting clapped out units from the south east. Where have I heard that before ?

There is a difference the 319's still have 10 years of nominal life left. The 313's will be over 42 years old so past their sell by date

 

[47802]

Forgetting the economics and looking at it more politically I think Wales and the rest of England outside of London and South East are going to get increasingly hacked off by the idea of 40 year old trains as the only way to get an electrified service, along with the struggle to replace Rail Buses with wacky ideas like sticking an engine in 'D' Stock.

It also doesn't do much for HS2 argument either if we are not seen to be able to afford to properly fund our existing Railway.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Plan originally called for the 315's to be used but then there was thinking that despite being a little older the 313's were in better condition.

Alternative that has been seriously mooted is going for light rail rather than heavy rail, signalling and electrification costs are smaller and it may be cheaper overall despite new stock having to be procured, particularly as 313 or 315's might only be good for another five years anyway and practically soon as it became operational you would need to be ordering their replacements. The possibility of higher frequency, ease of new lines and street running has also tipped some in government to thinking it might produce a better end product.

There's still heavy freight running on a large chunk of the Valleys lines, the safety concerns of mixing trams with a thou sound odd tonnes of class 66 and coal hoppers need to be considered.

 

[HowardGWR]

There's still heavy freight running on a large chunk of the Valleys lines, the safety concerns of mixing trams with a thou sound odd tonnes of class 66 and coal hoppers need to be considered.

Nobody ever states what those concerns actually involve. I don't see the problems but I am not a PW man. If the track is heavy enough strength to bear goods trains, then it can bear trams, or is there something else?

 

[Chris125]

Conventional electrification has to be the way to go, dual-voltage tram trains can be used in future where there use makes sense without preventing the use of mainline EMUs in the meantime..

Chris

 

[Bald Rick]

Being in Wales last week, I was amused to see this subject in the headlines for the Wales Today late bulletin, with the item described as an alternative tram system suggested by a 'Rail Industry Expert'.

I bet myself a second bottle of Double Dragon that the full report would feature the dulcet tones of Mr Walmsley, and happily I won.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Nobody ever states what those concerns actually involve. I don't see the problems but I am not a PW man. If the track is heavy enough strength to bear goods trains, then it can bear trams, or is there something else?

Crash worthiness is the answer, trams are more flimsy than conventional trains. And yes I know Pacers run with heavy freight but they have grandfather rights.
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Being in Wales last week, I was amused to see this subject in the headlines for the Wales Today late bulletin, with the item described as an alternative tram system suggested by a 'Rail Industry Expert'.

I bet myself a second bottle of Double Dragon that the full report would feature the dulcet tones of Mr Walmsley, and happily I won.

Slow news day?

 

[HSTEd]

It also doesn't do much for HS2 argument either if we are not seen to be able to afford to properly fund our existing Railway.

We can afford to properly fund it.
This is proper funding.

What people demand is insane gold plating of everything.

 

[47802]

We can afford to properly fund it.
This is proper funding.

What people demand is insane gold plating of everything.

I don't think not wanting 40 year old stock which is essentially life expired can be described as gold plating everything

 

[HSTEd]

They can have new diesels and no electrification for a generation or they can have 'life expired' electrics with new trains after a decade.

Which do you want?

 

[Bald Rick]

Slow news day?

At risk of alienating my father in law, is there ever a fast news day in Wales?

 

[edwin_m]

Crash worthiness is the answer, trams are more flimsy than conventional trains. And yes I know Pacers run with heavy freight but they have grandfather rights.

Trams are more flimsy than Pacers too. The rules for tram-trains are that all signals have to be fitted with TPWS or some better protection system (such as ERTMS) and the overlaps have to be long enough to stop any train that passes a signal at danger. This eliminates the majority of the risk of train-to-train collisions, but if TPWS is used it probably reduces route capacity somewhat.

How much of the Valleys (excluding the main line) is regularly used by freight these days?

 

[muddythefish]

They can have new diesels and no electrification for a generation or they can have 'life expired' electrics with new trains after a decade.

Which do you want?

If it were London and SE it would be electrification and new trains.
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What people demand is insane gold plating of everything.

No it isn't. It's being fair to all regions of the country.

 

[47802]

They can have new diesels and no electrification for a generation or they can have 'life expired' electrics with new trains after a decade.

Which do you want?

Electrification with reasonable rolling stock doesn't have to be new but in good condition with a reasonable life left in it not 313/315 etc, along a satisfactory solution to eliminate Rail Buses, and if we cannot justify that for our existing rail network then I think we need to ask questions about the justification for parts or all of HS2.

Yes the economics for HS2 may be somewhat different to the Valley Lines but, for average punter when see crap rolling stock, high fares. overcrowding on large parts of our existing rail network is it any wonder many are against HS2. I don't call electrification with 40 year old stock proper funding.

 

[Tio Terry]

They can have new diesels and no electrification for a generation or they can have 'life expired' electrics with new trains after a decade.

Which do you want?

Nobody wants to build new diesels. Nobody wants to meet the new EU requirements for diesel emissions. The cost of new diesel trains has sky rocketed. The right thing to do is electrify - but not on an Interoperability basis. There's no chance of running Interoperability compliant trains on the Valley Lines.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it were London and SE it would be electrification and new trains.
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Question: what proportion of electrification schemes in London and SE in the past 30 years came with new trains? (Projects funded by BAA do not count )

 

[HSTEd]

If the Valley lines gets new electric stock it will get the absolute minimum necessary to run the service - a 3x20m unit for each diagram and no allowance for doubling up.

If it takes the 313s or 315s it can probably get itself assigned the entire class, at which point it will be swimming in units and overcrowding simply won't happen.

Having 'life expired' stock has its advantages.
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No it isn't. It's being fair to all regions of the country.

Why is it fair that I have to live in a town that has essentially no public transport after 5pm and none at all on Sundays, and which has an almost worthless service during the parts of days that it does run?

While the Valleys scream and get brand new trains for no other reason than because they want them?

 

[47802]

If the Valley lines gets new electric stock it will get the absolute minimum necessary to run the service - a 3x20m unit for each diagram and no allowance for doubling up.

If it takes the 313s or 315s it can probably get itself assigned the entire class, at which point it will be swimming in units and overcrowding simply won't happen.

Having 'life expired' stock has its advantages.

Yes and also has disadvantages, in a poorer passenger environment, poorer reliability, high maintenance costs, high fuel costs etc.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes and also has disadvantages, in a poorer passenger environment, poorer reliability, high maintenance costs, high fuel costs etc.

1. The fuel cost of EMUs is negligible, especially lightweight ones like 315s
2. The maintenance costs will be washed out by the enormous leasing cost of new units
3. Passenger environment on a PEP is not that much worse than a brand new unit and will be streets ahead of anything the valleys has ever seen.
4. And reliability is not that important because if a unit decides it doesn't want to work one morning you have carriage sidings that stretch as far as the eye can see, all of them full of alternative units.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If you fitted PEP stock with WiFi, power sockets, new seats and a deep clean most people wouldn't know nor give a toss how old they are. It may be difficult for ourselves to comprehend but the large majority of people don't actually think about what sort of train they get on - some of the more astute ones might realise that the doors are in the wrong place if a commuter-doored unit turns up on a long distance service but no normal person would ever care that their electric PEP stock was old. If you gave the people of the Valleys the choice of an over-abundance of old-ish stock that could be refurbished or a minimal fleet of new trains, I'm very certain they would choose the option to have more carriages.

 

[muddythefish]

Yes and also has disadvantages, in a poorer passenger environment, poorer reliability, high maintenance costs, high fuel costs etc.

Plus poor public perception of the area - the Pacers do not help the north's image one iota.
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Why is it fair that I have to live in a town that has essentially no public transport after 5pm and none at all on Sundays, and which has an almost worthless service during the parts of days that it does run?

While the Valleys scream and get brand new trains for no other reason than because they want them?

It doesn't sound fair. But that doesn't mean a deprived area such as the Valley's should not be treated in the same way as the country's richest areas.

 

[47802]

1. The fuel cost of EMUs is negligible, especially lightweight ones like 315s
2. The maintenance costs will be washed out by the enormous leasing cost of new units
3. Passenger environment on a PEP is not that much worse than a brand new unit and will be streets ahead of anything the valleys has ever seen.
4. And reliability is not that important because if a unit decides it doesn't want to work one morning you have carriage sidings that stretch as far as the eye can see, all of them full of alternative units.

1. Really I would interested to see a fuel cost comparison.

4. so we are going to have loads of units all over the place are we in the hope that eventually you get one that works, but then fails on the busiest section of the line in the morning rush hours, nice.

3. Really when I travelled on a GN 313 a couple of months ago I didn't get that impression and that comes from someone who is used to travelling on Northern Rail Buses. I also made a couple of Thameslink journeys that day and the Thameslink 377 seemed light years ahead of the 319 never mind the 313.

2. Possibly so, however I don't see it as a excuse, I'm not against second hand trains for Wales or the North. however in my book they need to be at least of 319 type vintage that could justify a 321 demonstrator type refurb for perhaps another 15 years service.

 

[Manchester77]

3. Really when I travelled on a GN 313 a couple of months ago I didn't get that impression and that comes from someone who is used to travelling on Northern Rail Buses. I also made a couple of Thameslink journeys that day and the Thameslink 377 seemed light years ahead of the 319 never mind the 313.

2. Possibly so, however I don't see it as a excuse, I'm not against second hand trains for Wales or the North. however in my book they need to be at least of 319 type vintage that could justify a 321 demonstrator type refurb for perhaps another 15 years service.

- It's unlikely the units would come in the same condition as they are in now, even the 319s heading to northern are having work done to them at Wolverton thanks to northern lobbying the DfT for a refresh. We'd have probably had seen them undergo a full refurbishment but the DfT cocked that up when they ballsed up ICWC! So are you saying that a member of the public (someone who has no knowledge that they're travelling on a 313/5/9 from the 70s/80s) travelling on a refurbished unit would be able to tell that a unit with a brand new interior, big toilet, modern PIS equipment, AC, plug sockets, wifi etc. was 30+ years old? It's wasteful to scrap a fleet of perfectly good EMUs because of a stigma attached to them.
- What's wrong with doing something similar to the 313s? The 455s (the oldest being just 6 years younger than the 313s) have received new interiors, DDA mods and new traction packages (SWT) - would you be complaining if something like that was proposed for 313s in the Valleys? Certainly be better than a pacer! And with new traction and interiors the units would surely last for more than 20 more years.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Nobody wants to build new diesels. Nobody wants to meet the new EU requirements for diesel emissions. The cost of new diesel trains has sky rocketed. The right thing to do is electrify - but not on an Interoperability basis. There's no chance of running Interoperability compliant trains on the Valley Lines.

The Hitachi Bi mode IEP is essentially an electric that turns itself into a DMU and hundreds of carriages of them are being built, 97 DMU Coradia Lints have just been ordered by the German Federal Government. Funny how the UK and German Govternments have got around the emissions issue and are ordering fleet size underfloor DMU's.
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Trams are more flimsy than Pacers too. The rules for tram-trains are that all signals have to be fitted with TPWS or some better protection system (such as ERTMS) and the overlaps have to be long enough to stop any train that passes a signal at danger. This eliminates the majority of the risk of train-to-train collisions, but if TPWS is used it probably reduces route capacity somewhat.

How much of the Valleys (excluding the main line) is regularly used by freight these days?

Aberthaw Power Station on Vale of Glamorgan, Tower Open Cast at the end of the Aberdare line and the open cast at Cwmbargoed off the Rhymney line all have daily trains and mean every single diagram in the Valleys except the Bay Shuttle shares tracks with heavy freight.