Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Aictos]

FCC uniforms are to be retained until the end of March 2015 with the logos covered/removed according to documents released internally today.. Not sure why though, aside from giving themselves plenty of time to make sure they get it right?

Pretty much what I've been told by a rep who attended a TUPE meeting with Govia.

Seems a long time to sort out uniform though?

 

[jopsuk]

How many Class 377 will be needed on the Great Northern then to run the Kings Cross- Kings Lynn service? Service takes about 1hr 40, with currently a ten minute turnaround at KGX and a 33 minute turnaround at KLN. If that was to continue, with all trains going to Kings Lynn, that would require I think 10 units? Plus a further four being coupled/uncoupled at Cambridge.

There are, though, 12 car peak services which would require a few more units, assuming that remains.

 

[Minstral25]

Pretty much what I've been told by a rep who attended a TUPE meeting with Govia.

Seems a long time to sort out uniform though?

Probably expecting a lot of angry commuters over the winter with the January 2015 timetable change South of the river. So want the commuters to associate it with FCC and not GTR

 

[Bald Rick]

Just noticed that trains run once am hour during the night to Bedford from Three Bridges and also in the opposite direction. Will overnight services continue under the new franchise. If going to somewhere like Haywards Heath you have to change at East Croydon and get a Southern service.

Also I wonder if they'd be able to run any Thameslink trains south of Three Bridges. There is currently a three hour gap between services heading south from East Croydon.

Overnight services continue, indeed they get more frequent on the north side to Luton.

South of Three Bridges it is of course only 2 tracks, and there is a lot of maintenance done at night on that stretch, not all of which can be done safely with one line open.

 

[infobleep]

Just think if Southern Railways had 4 tracked to Brighton instead of electrifying it. Would have been cheaper to do that then too.

Wouldn't happen now on cost grounds and value for money based on numbers that travel during the night.

Is much single line working done at all these days due to safety improvements?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just think if Southern Railways had 4 tracked to Brighton instead of electrifying it. Would have been cheaper to do that then too.

Wouldn't happen now on cost grounds and value for money based on numbers that travel during the night.

Is much single line working done at all these days due to safety improvements?

Yes quite a bit.

I would be surprised if 4 tracking to Brighton would ever have been cheaper than electrifying. There's some big hills and valleys to get under and over.

 

[tsr]

Is much single line working done at all these days due to safety improvements?

Yes quite a bit.

There is of course the SIMBIDS (SIMplified BI-Directional Signalling) scheme, which greatly assists for use of one line in either direction during maintenance works or incidents. Unfortunately, due to what are effectively longer signal sections, you will find that capacity is restricted so fewer trains can be fitted on the single line - never mind opportunities for passing other trains or waiting for the single line to clear. A good photo of a signal forming part of the SIMBIDS system is found at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haywards_Heath_Simbids.jpg

Don't forget that some services may also divert via Lewes in the late evening/early morning, or if there is a problem between Keymer Junction and Preston Park.

I would be surprised if 4 tracking to Brighton would ever have been cheaper than electrifying. There's some big hills and valleys to get under and over.

I agree. Also, maintenance issues and vulnerabilities (e.g. from flooding, such as the problems in Patcham Tunnel during the winter we've just had) would be equally difficult for two sets of tunnels and indeed bridges/viaducts, requiring what would probably be a larger workforce and resulting in what would possibly not be such an appreciable standby option in disruption, aside from any planned closures for track maintenance/renewals.

 

[carriageline]

As a side note, they tend not to call it SIMBIDS now, and it has a new fancy acronym, one of
which I cannot remember!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tsr]

As a side note, they tend not to call it SIMBIDS now, and it has a new fancy acronym, one of
which I cannot remember!

I've heard "restricted capacity signalling" and I think possibly something else. But I've never had any complaints about calling it "SIMBIDS", so I might just stick to that on this forum unless there's a really good reason given.

 

[mr_jrt]

Yes quite a bit.

I would be surprised if 4 tracking to Brighton would ever have been cheaper than electrifying. There's some big hills and valleys to get under and over.

Funny, I was just discussing this elsewhere. They did plan it IIRC, but obviously didn't get very far. The biggest obstacles are clearly the Ouse Valley Viaduct and Balcombe tunnel (being the BML's very own Welwyn), so one way around that might be the unpopular step of running from East Grinstead to Lewes via Haywards Heath (and *cough*Horsted Keynes*cough*), and quadrupling Copyhold to Keymer. Only a short 249 yard tunnel makes it anything remotely complex...

...and gives you a good start on doing from Haywards Heath to Brighton proper at a later date. Clayton will be expensive to duplicate, but should be doable, and Patcham should be no bother at all.

 

[DJL]

I've a downloaded change notice from 2010 that reckoned that the core area re-signalling for KO1 would include 3 aspect signalling for 'wrong direction' moves. The normal direction signalling is the usual 4 aspect, (so two LED heads?), and also has the POSA aspects throughout, so perhaps the bi-di signalling is a bit less conspicuous?

Found a few recent videos and pics that show bi-di signalling at St Pancras LL and City T/L - so it would be odd if Blackfriars wasn't provided with it as well.

Edited to add:

Found a picture on Flickr showing full signalling at the south end of P2 looking towards E&C, so that looks sorted:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/melaniejanelondon/10203489305/

I guess I just never noticed it!
Perhaps because the signal is only ever red when I'm there and no exactly aligned to my view from Platform 1 (I think the new LED signals are supposed to be highly directional?)
I've only been to the northern end of the station a handful of times and I wasn't looking at signals.

One man's operational flexibility is another man's increased cost of building and maintaining kit that is used very infrequently.

In this case it was only possible to do by making big compromises elsewhere. In particular the station would have had to be shifted south more than 100 metres.

Yeah I figured there would be a good reason for it rather than just being an oversight!
100 meters sounds like a lot to me . Other than needing alternative arrangements for leaving platforms 2-4 I don't see why the platforms would need to move at all?
But then I'm no expert in these things - maybe it not actually connected with the platforms themselves but the signals and pointwork? Again I'm just guessing here though.

I still maintain it's a shame that it couldn't be done but if there are good reasons why not then we just have to accept that and live with the consequences.

 

[Aictos]

Probably expecting a lot of angry commuters over the winter with the January 2015 timetable change South of the river. So want the commuters to associate it with FCC and not GTR

Probably, must be a reason for it - I know come April 2015 the new uniform comes out, just wished it was sooner.

 

[Yabbadabba]

Just think if Southern Railways had 4 tracked to Brighton instead of electrifying it. Would have been cheaper to do that then too.

Wouldn't happen now on cost grounds and value for money based on numbers that travel during the night.

Is much single line working done at all these days due to safety improvements?

There is usually single line working SLW about one Saturday night in three on the Brighton main line, but this will take place over the four track section between East Croydon to Three bridges these being, 1) East Croydon to Couldsdon North Ground frame over the Up Fast Line, 2) South Croydon Junction to Stoats Nest Junction over the Down Slow Line, 3) Purley to Redhill over the Down Slow/Redhill Line, 4) Redhill/Easrlwood* to Gatwick Airport over the up Slow/Redhill line, 5) Gatwick Airport to Three Bridges over the up slow line.
* = starting point depends on how far the adjacent line is blocked and what work is taking place on it.

The Simbids between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Copyhold Junction has been used a few Saturday overnights this year for possessions to take place on the adjacent line for signalling works, (See below#).

The Simbids between Haywards Heath and Keymer Junction is only used to get around a defective train.

The Simbids between Keymer Juction and Preston Park is very rarely used as the section is too long to be of any practical use.

# Balcombe Tunnel Junction to Copyhold Junction is due to have commissioned this November (2014) full bi-directional signalling allowing 6 trains per hour in each direction, operated in flights of three per each direction.

 

[Bald Rick]

I guess I just never noticed it!
Perhaps because the signal is only ever red when I'm there and no exactly aligned to my view from Platform 1 (I think the new LED signals are supposed to be highly directional?)
I've only been to the northern end of the station a handful of times and I wasn't looking at signals.



Yeah I figured there would be a good reason for it rather than just being an oversight!
100 meters sounds like a lot to me . Other than needing alternative arrangements for leaving platforms 2-4 I don't see why the platforms would need to move at all?
But then I'm no expert in these things - maybe it not actually connected with the platforms themselves but the signals and pointwork? Again I'm just guessing here though.

I still maintain it's a shame that it couldn't be done but if there are good reasons why not then we just have to accept that and live with the consequences.

It's all about track alignment. You'll notice that pretty soon after the platform ends at the north end, the track drops off the 1:29 incline down to City Thameslink. So a four through platformed station would need the junctions between the lines before that incline (points don't work at all well in transitions between gradients).

The line speed through the junctions must be at least 30mph to enable the 75 sec headways necessary to run the service, meaning relatively long sets of points. Then the diverging / converging tracks need to separate to at least 5metres wide for the island platform. Thinking about it, it would have been more than 100metres.

 

[RichardN]

I think the real shame is that the entire line through to City Thameslink wasn't 4 tracked when city thameslink was first built. We could now have turned the underground sidings into an extension of Farringdon and traffic for the bay could serve City Thameslink and farringdon without conflicts. I suspect curtailing the loop to farringdon wouldn't have been anywhere near as controversial as Blackfriars.

 

[Class377/5]

I think the real shame is that the entire line through to City Thameslink wasn't 4 tracked when city thameslink was first built. We could now have turned the underground sidings into an extension of Farringdon and traffic for the bay could serve City Thameslink and farringdon without conflicts. I suspect curtailing the loop to farringdon wouldn't have been anywhere near as controversial as Blackfriars.

Making Farringdon four track would be very expensive unless you had used what is now Smithfield Sidings but it would still have been more money than anyone could have afforded on what was a new service back then.

 

[MLR]

Pretty much what I've been told by a rep who attended a TUPE meeting with Govia.

Seems a long time to sort out uniform though?

If you consider that GTR don't take over until 14 Sep 14 (so only get staff details 28 days before that), then there is about a six month lead time for new uniforms (purchasing off the shelf material or manufacturing it if it's not in stock etc) and then manufacturing the uniforms themselves, then add some delivery time in; throw in some consultation with the unions etc and that's no time at.

 

[Class2ldn]

Well fcc won't be wearing ties while 319s are still around. So be interesting to see what uniform govia come up with

 

[RichardN]

I meant using Smithfield sidings. As you say, this is with the benefit of lots of hindsight. The original city thameslink plan was all about selling off the land occupied by Holborn viaduct station, so removing extra volume from the offices created, probably wouldn't have been welcomed. Also the work to punch the extra tracks through Blackfriars would have been extra expense.

 

[21C101]

I meant using Smithfield sidings. As you say, this is with the benefit of lots of hindsight. The original city thameslink plan was all about selling off the land occupied by Holborn viaduct station, so removing extra volume from the offices created, probably wouldn't have been welcomed. Also the work to punch the extra tracks through Blackfriars would have been extra expense.

More annoying is that the original plan for four through platforms at Blackfriars was changed to two through and two terminating, the latter of which are and will now be rarely used as the wall of death line services will continue to run to St Albans.

 

[swt_passenger]

More annoying is that the original plan for four through platforms at Blackfriars was changed to two through and two terminating, the latter of which are and will now be rarely used as the wall of death line services will continue to run to St Albans.

What original plan is that then? I've been following this Thameslink project for over ten years and a four platform station has never been a part of it.

There are readily available published plans for reasonably full use of the bay platforms by Southeastern, just because the loop isn't using them doesn't mean they aren't going to be used at all in the final timetable.

 

[DJL]

It's all about track alignment. You'll notice that pretty soon after the platform ends at the north end, the track drops off the 1:29 incline down to City Thameslink. So a four through platformed station would need the junctions between the lines before that incline (points don't work at all well in transitions between gradients).

Ahh - points on a slope - of course!
Annoyed I didn't see that tbh. But then again that's why I'm not a railway engineer!
Perhaps they should have built the new station at river level and put a level crossing over the road just to the north of the station.

(Joking - obviously)

 

[Aictos]

With the transfer of a platform at Victoria from the SE side to the SN side, how much would this impact on SE services using Victoria?

What GTR services could make more use of the bays at Blackfriars?

 

[Bald Rick]

More annoying is that the original plan for four through platforms at Blackfriars was changed to two through and two terminating, the latter of which are and will now be rarely used as the wall of death line services will continue to run to St Albans.

I've been personally involved for years and can confirm there was never a plan, original or otherwise for 4 platforms. It was looked at, but as a simple trip up thread will show, it was quickly discounted on grounds of practicality.

 

[Aictos]

I've been personally involved for years and can confirm there was never a plan, original or otherwise for 4 platforms. It was looked at, but as a simple trip up thread will show, it was quickly discounted on grounds of practicality.

I agree, as much as I wouldn't mind seeing the Core as 4 track it simply hasn't and won't be done upon grounds of practicality.

By the way, was the reduction from three bay platforms to two bay platforms a cost thing or was it to do with something else?

 

[DJL]

I agree, as much as I wouldn't mind seeing the Core as 4 track it simply hasn't and won't be done upon grounds of practicality.

By the way, was the reduction from three bay platforms to two bay platforms a cost thing or was it to do with something else?

I'd imagine it was to do with space.
The 4 platforms as they exist aren't the widest I've ever seen (ok - they're not the narrowest either but still).

The original platforms were, I believe, quite a bit further north and shorter too.
I never used the old station but I can't imagine the platforms were particularly wide?

 

[21C101]

The original plan in the 1990s was four through platforms (two islands). There was also serious consideration to making Blackfriars the OHLE/Third Rail changeover.

 

[Bald Rick]

Space, and realistically, no need for the foreseeable future.

 

[physics34]

With the transfer of a platform at Victoria from the SE side to the SN side, how much would this impact on SE services using Victoria?

What GTR services could make more use of the bays at Blackfriars?

Yeh platform 8 will become permanently used by southern services. Not sure how many southeastern services use it daily at the moment.

Southern frequently use platform 8 currently.

 

[user15681]

Yeh platform 8 will become permanently used by southern services. Not sure how many southeastern services use it daily at the moment.

Southern frequently use platform 8 currently.

12 a day by SE, only in the peaks really. A little rejigging and Southern can have it