Class 700 - Guard Operated

[waterboo]

Hello, with the thameslink franchise largely operating with DOO, i was looking at the mockup for the class 700, and was surprised to find that these trains will be fitted with the guards panel. I surely hope these trains will have guards!!

Image below:

 

[TEW]

Some of the new Thameslink destinations are currently served by trains which have guards such as Maidstone East, Horsham, East Grinstead and Eastbourne.

 

[swt_passenger]

Some of the new Thameslink destinations are currently served by trains which have guards such as Maidstone East, Horsham, East Grinstead and Eastbourne.

Eastbourne? You're surely better thinking of Littlehampton?

 

[TEW]

Yes, sorry. I got them the wrong way round.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, sorry. I got them the wrong way round.

Easily done though, there's been that many different maps published over the last few years...

 

[59CosG95]

Some of the new Thameslink destinations are currently served by trains which have guards such as Maidstone East, Horsham, East Grinstead and Littlehampton.

The guards will probably join the trains going to these places once they're out of the core London section.

 

[Aictos]

he only places that will see them with guards are places that already have guards, other routes will just be DOO unless of course Govia will have more onboard staff being able to provide a presence in the existing DOO areas?

 

[Class377/5]

None of the Class 700 will operate with guard, they will be DOO only when introduced. DOO roll out to all 700 routes was stated in the TSGN franchise documents.

However when the tender (back in 2008 for a February 2012 introduction for the first unit) went out it was expected FCC, Southern and Southeastern would have all used the stock prior to routes transferring over to Thameslink. For example the Ashford planned service would have been run by Southeastern using 12 car units with guard.

So as a result the Class 700 have guards panel. Plus there could always been a chance they are moved to guard operated in the future.

 

[Fincra5]

None of the Class 700 will operate with guard, they will be DOO only when introduced. DOO roll out to all 700 routes was stated in the TSGN franchise documents.

However when the tender (back in 2008 for a February 2012 introduction for the first unit) went out it was expected FCC, Southern and Southeastern would have all used the stock prior to routes transferring over to Thameslink. For example the Ashford planned service would have been run by Southeastern using 12 car units with guard.

So as a result the Class 700 have guards panel. Plus there could always been a chance they are moved to guard operated in the future.

The planned Littlehampton to West Hampstead cannot be operated DOO until it is on the Brighton Mainline, so would have a Guard at least until Haywards Heath (via Hove) or Three Bridges via Horsham.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The guards panel may well be a standard feature of the units, no matter who orders them, just like the pan wells are a standard feature on all stock, even though not used by SWT or Southeastern (non-HS1 routes)

 

[Bald Rick]

The planned Littlehampton to West Hampstead cannot be operated DOO until it is on the Brighton Mainline, so would have a Guard at least until Haywards Heath (via Hove) or Three Bridges via Horsham.

Why so?

 

[Fincra5]

Why so?

As the route is not cleared for passenger DOO.. It would have to be agreed by the unions, etc... etc. I can't see it this franchise anyway.

 

[notadriver]

As the route is not cleared for passenger DOO.. It would have to be agreed by the unions, etc... etc. I can't see it this franchise anyway.

395s can operate DOO on all routes. I suspect this will be the case with the 700s.

 

[Bald Rick]

As the route is not cleared for passenger DOO.. It would have to be agreed by the unions, etc... etc. I can't see it this franchise anyway.

Ah. Things change.

 

[Class377/5]

The planned Littlehampton to West Hampstead cannot be operated DOO until it is on the Brighton Mainline, so would have a Guard at least until Haywards Heath (via Hove) or Three Bridges via Horsham.

You missed the part in the TSGN ITT stating the winning bidder must wok with unions to introduce DOO to all class 700 routes then? Unions didn't.

 

[hassaanhc]

The guards panel may well be a standard feature of the units, no matter who orders them, just like the pan wells are a standard feature on all stock, even though not used by SWT or Southeastern (non-HS1 routes)

I noticed a guards panel on a doorway nearest to the cab on the Heathrow Connect 360/2 which run DOO

 

[Via Bank]

Regardless of whether the route they're destined for will be guard-operated or not, it makes sense that GOPs would be installed by default. It's a relatively small outlay for increased flexibility if, in future, guard operation was required (even though it shouldn't be on the Thameslink routes.)

 

[DownSouth]

Regardless of whether the route they're destined for will be guard-operated or not, it makes sense that GOPs would be installed by default. It's a relatively small outlay for increased flexibility if, in future, guard operation was required (even though it shouldn't be on the Thameslink routes.)

And far cheaper to get it done at the time of construction than as a later addition.

 

[Fincra5]

If 700s run down the coast way.. That's it for the Guard role on Southern I reckon.. I could see them saying well we operate 700s without a guard (maybe an Onboard Manager).. So why not 377s.

And I didn't fully read the ITT.. But if that's so then they might have to work with the Unions but whether they agree it is another matter.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If 700s run down the coast way.. That's it for the Guard role on Southern I reckon.. I could see them saying well we operate 700s without a guard (maybe an Onboard Manager).. So why not 377s.

And I didn't fully read the ITT.. But if that's so then they might have to work with the Unions but whether they agree it is another matter.

Aslef will agree once a few extra £££ s are waved at them.

RMT won't really have a say in the matter, they'll just make them redundant whether they like it or not.

It was a franchise requirement to extend DOO as much as possible, so expect it elsewhere too. It is also, according to the initial documents, going to be a franchise requirement to introduce DOO as much as possible at Northern too.

 

[physics34]

FCC agreeing DOO on 12 car trains has ruined any chance of safeguarding conductors.

 

[Starmill]

And far cheaper to get it done at the time of construction than as a later addition.

Additionally, if Govia do decide to put a member of customer service / revenue on-board management / whatever staff onboard, they would be able to use the PAs in those panels.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was a franchise requirement to extend DOO as much as possible, so expect it elsewhere too. It is also, according to the initial documents, going to be a franchise requirement to introduce DOO as much as possible at Northern too.

I really don't understand the focus on Northern. Their routes are surely some of the least adaptable to DOO in the whole country? And why then leave it up to bidders for TPE if it's so good Northern must have it?

 

[starrymarkb]

Will be interested to see what happens with other franchises. IEP is meant to be DOO capable as well IIRC

Wonder if this push from the DfT might be linked to their previous push for gating stations.

 

[Aictos]

FCC agreeing DOO on 12 car trains has ruined any chance of safeguarding conductors.

Yet Southern under Govia do run 12 car trains and as such have a requirement for guards to be on such trains.

 

[thelem]

Yet Southern under Govia do run 12 car trains and as such have a requirement for guards to be on such trains.

For now.

Why would one company run 12-car 377s DOO Brighton - London Bridge, and 8-car 377s DOO Brighton - Victoria, but not 12-car 377s to Victoria?

 

[physics34]

The "word on the street" at southern is that all services using class 700s will not have conductors, so the guards panels are a bit of a mystery.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The "word on the street" at southern is that all services using class 700s will not have conductors, so the guards panels are a bit of a mystery.

That's probably been put in as part of the spec from the leasing company, in case any different TOC leases them in the future who wants to use guards. The other possibility is that it's part of the standard spec of the 700s

 

[Fincra5]

For now.

Why would one company run 12-car 377s DOO Brighton - London Bridge, and 8-car 377s DOO Brighton - Victoria, but not 12-car 377s to Victoria?

Because of the T&C's with Southern drivers. Rumour is, to save a lot of hassle they will keep the same T&C's dependant of Division, ergo; Current FCC drivers will keep their T&Cs and SN theirs. Which includes only 10Car DOO.

 

[physics34]

Because of the T&C's with Southern drivers. Rumour is, to save a lot of hassle they will keep the same T&C's dependant of Division, ergo; Current FCC drivers will keep their T&Cs and SN theirs. Which includes only 10Car DOO.

southern drivers will be driving 12 car 700s to East Grinstead, Brighton, Horsham and Littlehampton so they will have to agree to 12 car DOO i presume.

 

[Fincra5]

southern drivers will be driving 12 car 700s to East Grinstead, Brighton, Horsham and Littlehampton so they will have to agree to 12 car DOO i presume.

Or FCC drivers can be trained on said routes... (and new drivers based at Three Bridges). All these services that aren't cleared for DOO are still in the planning phase.