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Revenue protection farce at Bradford Forster Square

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Bantamzen

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Over the last couple of years there's been a sporadic revenue protection presence at peak times at Bradford Forster, and after a break of a few weeks they returned again yesterday morning. However for whatever reason, the latest teams do not have the ability to sell tickets to passengers alighting from terminating services. It's not usually a problem but on this morning's 06:19 Ilkley - Bradford service the guard for whatever reason did not make it down the train to check / sell tickets to all the passengers (I boarded at Baildon @ 06:36).

This caused a level of confusion an arrival at BDQ as a number of passengers from Baildon (a station without staff or a ticket machine) were queried by the revenue staff as to why they had no ticket, and had to be waived through towards the ticket off where a sizeable queue was already forming. No doubt this was a theme throughout the day because this afternoon I headed for the 15:46 Ilkley & whilst waiting a series of garbled tannoy announcements were made which it seemed were aimed at people who had already passed through the checks without tickets, presumably for similar reasons as this morning.

It seems rather odd that Northern have taken the decision not to sell tickets at the barrier as they have previously, and instead expect potentially dozens of ticket-less passengers to queue at the office where there are only two counters & they are not always both staffed. I suppose people could use the ticket machine outside the office, but you would have to purchase an outgoing return from Bradford which could lead to it being questioned by the same revenue staff and/or guards.

I understand & applaud efforts to reduce revenue loss, but today's scenes where a bit of a mess & just cause delay & annoyance for passengers. Personally I wish the money could be found to improve the approach to Forster Square & allow the installation of barriers to prevent this kind of thing happening again, as many folk use the services as a free shuttle up towards Frizinghall & Shipley as guards often struggle to make their way through all 4 carriages before they reach these stations.
 
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Harpers Tate

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If they want their revenue then they have to make adequate provision to collect it. If that means adding a fare collector to the train then, as long as their costs are more than covered by the revenue they raise, it's all good. And likewise, in fact, if the costs of collection EXCEED the revenue, then it is cost-effective to lose it.

Revenue protection activities ought to be there SOLELY to catch out those who have avoided an adequate opportunity - not those who have had none.
 
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northernchris

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I travel through BDQ every day and have noticed the recent increase in revenue staff. This morning there were definitely selling tickets to those without on arrival (I was on the 0805 arrival from Skipton) but one thing that did strike me was the amount of staff there. There must have been 20 at least across the 3 platforms so I can only assume there are a few in training. Keighley desperately needs revenue staff, particularly in the morning peak to catch the large amount of school kids who travel without a ticket each day so hopefully once trained the staff will be more spread out across stations on the Airedale line

Many morning services do have an RPI onboard to assist the conductor with fare collection but it's very rare to see any on services after lunchtime.
 

12CSVT

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If they can employ 20 people to do a revenue check at one station, why don't they employ a ticket clerk at each station on the Skipton and Ilkley lines during the morning peaks ?
It would make things easier for the majority of honest passengers who intend to purchase the correct tickets and at the same time make it infinitely more difficult for the fare dodgers to think up an excuse that is remotely plausible.
 
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HowardGWR

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If they want their revenue then they have to make adequate provision to collect it. If that means adding a fare collector to the train then, as long as their costs are more than covered by the revenue they raise, it's all good. And likewise, in fact, if the costs of collected EXCEED the revenue, then it is cost-effective to lose it.

Revenue protection activities ought to be there SOLELY to catch out those who have avoided and adequate opportunity - not those who have had none.
Great sympathy with that and it's appalling that such pax are delayed at their destination, when they could have used the waiting time at their origin station to buy a ticket, had there been anyone selling any.

Edit: I feel the same way about pax arriving from Paris at St P being delayed when the checks could have been done in Paris or on the train.
 
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mhwatson

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I've no problem with revenue collection, but watching this crew on Monday for 15 minutes was quite worrying. They spent the majority of their time shouting and joking with each other (not in English), and had a good following of locals on bikes who were pulling wheelies in front of the ticket hall.

They didn't seem to be selling tickets, but escorting folks inside.
 

northernchris

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I would expect that to be an RPA - assistant

Thanks! They probably are


Great sympathy with that and it's appalling that such pax are delayed at their destination, when they could have used the waiting time at their origin station to buy a ticket, had there been anyone selling any.

I board at Keighley, and it surprises me each morning how many people spend 5 minutes on the platform waiting for the train only to end up buying onboard or in some cases at Forster Square. Unfortunately for some people no matter how good the ticket purchasing facilities are they will always try to avoid paying
 

Tim R-T-C

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. Keighley desperately needs revenue staff, particularly in the morning peak to catch the large amount of school kids who travel without a ticket each day so hopefully once trained the staff will be more spread out across stations on the Airedale line

Much harder now since the station can now be a walkway with the opening of the second exit.
 

mhwatson

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Also Monday evening the 18:16 to Skipton had a Metro (I think?) guy on checking tickets and directing the guard to folks who didn't have one, after reading them the riot act. He asked me where I was getting off and seemed perplexed when I said Cononley (outside Metro area). Closely inspected my Steeton to Cononley season (rest covered by 2-5 Metrocard), wandered off then returned a few minutes later to 'look at it again'.
 

Bantamzen

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I travel through BDQ every day and have noticed the recent increase in revenue staff. This morning there were definitely selling tickets to those without on arrival (I was on the 0805 arrival from Skipton) but one thing that did strike me was the amount of staff there. There must have been 20 at least across the 3 platforms so I can only assume there are a few in training. Keighley desperately needs revenue staff, particularly in the morning peak to catch the large amount of school kids who travel without a ticket each day so hopefully once trained the staff will be more spread out across stations on the Airedale line

Many morning services do have an RPI onboard to assist the conductor with fare collection but it's very rare to see any on services after lunchtime.

They must have made the decision after my service yesterday came in to start selling tickets at the barriers, because at 6:49 when we pulled in they weren't despite there being at least six of them crowded around the exit. It'll be interesting to see what happens again today. Hopefully they will have organised themselves a bit better because yesterday it was a bit of a scrum getting off the platform, with various people explaining why they had no ticket, and others having to show their ticket twice.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If they can employ 20 people to do a revenue check at one station, why don't they employ a ticket clerk at each station on the Skipton and Ilkley lines during the morning peaks ?....

The vast majority, if not all, of those people are likely to be agency staff on zero hour contracts (some may be Northern employees helping to 'train' the agency staff). Northern have assured their staff and the unions that no agency staff will be used to collect revenue on trains or sell tickets in ticket offices.
 

carriageline

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Slight question, but surely if the revenue protection team wasn't there then you would have to que up anyway?


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Bantamzen

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The vast majority, if not all, of those people are likely to be agency staff on zero hour contracts (some may be Northern employees helping to 'train' the agency staff). Northern have assured their staff and the unions that no agency staff will be used to collect revenue on trains or sell tickets in ticket offices.

Ah that might be why then. But frankly why bother with agency staff "checking" tickets when the resources might be better hiring staff to actually collect fares onboard services & not have delays for pax at the end of the journey? Supplement this with manned barriers at places like BDQ (the Interchange already has them) and you could achieve higher revenue protection than the current operation. Even just putting in a ticket machine & better CCTV at Baildon would help the cause a bit.

It's all very well have these teams in place, but if passengers don't have the opportunity to buy tickets prior to the end of their journey then it causes issues. As was the case again this morning, the 06:17 Ilkley - Bradford arrived with the guard not being able to check all tickets from Baildon onwards, and so people were again directed towards the ticket office where one counter was open for people to queue at. Of course given that there are two other exits from the ticket office, there was nothing to stop people simply walking straight through without paying. Most people will be honest & wait, but it only takes for there to already be a queue with people with more complex queries & suddenly people getting off the terminating service are waiting for some time just to continue their commute. I'll wager Northern will soon start to rack up the complaints.
 

carriageline

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Yes of course they would! :lol:



Do you think they would queue or just walk off the station?

Well, of course they would walk! But the point the OP seems to be moaning about is the fact the revenue protection team can't sell them tickets, and thus OP is forced to que up, but if they wanted to buy a ticket they would have to que up regardless (albeit the que would probably be non existent for the reasons stated above!!)


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OxtedL

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Well, of course they would walk! But the point the OP seems to be moaning about is the fact the revenue protection team can't sell them tickets, and thus OP is forced to que up, but if they wanted to buy a ticket they would have to que up regardless (albeit the que would probably be non existent for the reasons stated above!!)
As many have discovered whilst trying to play Scrabble, queue has an extra 'ue' at the end. I wouldn't normally comment but you were cramming it into the post as many times as you could. :)
 

455driver

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As many have discovered whilst trying to play Scrabble, queue has an extra 'ue' at the end. I wouldn't normally comment but you were cramming it into the post as many times as you could. :)

I did correct it in the post I quoted as well Sir! :D

A* distinction in English literature for me!

Actually it was a C at O level but hey, at least I can spell most words.
 

DarloRich

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If they can employ 20 people to do a revenue check at one station, why don't they employ a ticket clerk at each station on the Skipton and Ilkley lines during the morning peaks ?
It would make things easier for the majority of honest passengers who intend to purchase the correct tickets and at the same time make it infinitely more difficult for the fare dodgers to think up an excuse that is remotely plausible.

Because the 20 blokes doing a revenue block will cost less than one bloke working in a ticket office and they can be deployed to more than one location.

Plus - No doubt they are agency and on very poor T&C when compared to a long standing permanent member of staff.

PS why is everything on this site that is considered "sub optimal", in the view of the expert/poster, a farce?
 
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TUC

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If they can employ 20 people to do a revenue check at one station, why don't they employ a ticket clerk at each station on the Skipton and Ilkley lines during the morning peaks ?....

The vast majority, if not all, of those people are likely to be agency staff on zero hour contracts (some may be Northern employees helping to 'train' the agency staff). Northern have assured their staff and the unions that no agency staff will be used to collect revenue on trains or sell tickets in ticket offices.
Inconvenience passengers to keep the unions happy, why not?
 

hairyhandedfool

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Inconvenience passengers to keep the unions happy, why not?

Having 'appreciated' the 'special effort' some agency staff go to, I wouldn't want them anywhere near my office, I want it to stay open.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah that might be why then. But frankly why bother with agency staff "checking" tickets when the resources might be better hiring staff to actually collect fares onboard services & not have delays for pax at the end of the journey? Supplement this with manned barriers at places like BDQ (the Interchange already has them) and you could achieve higher revenue protection than the current operation. Even just putting in a ticket machine & better CCTV at Baildon would help the cause a bit.....

An employee would cost the company training costs, pension fees, staff travel fees and probably a whole lot more, also, agency staff are ten a penny and will accept crap T&Cs, coupled with the fact that the agency staff don't appear on the balance sheets as 'employee wages'.
 

northernchris

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This morning at Bradford I noticed the agency staff weren't selling tickets on the platform but were directing ticketless passengers to the booking office. Staff were stood at all entrances / exits checking tickets and not only did it look unprofessional but slightly intimidating too. Up to last week the same agency staff were selling tickets on the platform like the previous Northern employed staff used to do so not sure why the sudden change of policy
 

455driver

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Strange how, when there is a revenue block on at Bradford, there is a long queue at the ticket office, but when there isnt a block there is no queue?
I wonder why that would be?

Maybe inconveniencing a couple of hundred people who have travelled free all week and making them pay once in a while isnt seen as much of a problem for them!

As for the "inconveniencing passengers to keep the unions happy", oh pulease change the f+++++g record will ya or post something to substantiate the crap you post!
I wont hold my breath! :roll:
 
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northernchris

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Strange how, when there is a revenue block on at Bradford, there is a long queue at the ticket office, but when there isnt a block there is no queue?
I wonder why that would be?

Bradford Forster Square must be one of the worst stations on the Northern network for fare evasion so although it is good revenue blocks are currently on (and hopefully permanent) the way they are set up doesn't seem to be the most efficient way
 

455driver

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It would be interesting to see how much more revenue is taken at Bradford FS during theses blocks compared to a normal day!
 

Bantamzen

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Well, of course they would walk! But the point the OP seems to be moaning about is the fact the revenue protection team can't sell them tickets, and thus OP is forced to que up, but if they wanted to buy a ticket they would have to que up regardless (albeit the que would probably be non existent for the reasons stated above!!)


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You've misunderstood my point. I've no problem with queuing for tickets, but so far this week they haven't sold tickets at the end of the platform but instead directed people to the ticket office. This causes two problems, the first that if (as was the case on Tuesday) there are other passengers buying outward tickets then this causes more delays for everyone in the ticket office (as well as putting a bit more stress on the staff there). And secondly the office at BDQ has three exits, so it was quite easy for anyone wishing not to pay to simply walk through the office.

DarloRich said:
Because the 20 blokes doing a revenue block will cost less than one bloke working in a ticket office and they can be deployed to more than one location.

The ticket office staff are on x20 the wages of the revenue staff? Blumming heck, I want that job! Even if those revenue guys are on minimum wages, that means the ticket office staff are on £126 an hour. I'm in the wrong job... ;)

455driver said:
An employee would cost the company training costs, pension fees, staff travel fees and probably a whole lot more, also, agency staff are ten a penny and will accept crap T&Cs, coupled with the fact that the agency staff don't appear on the balance sheets as 'employee wages'.

Again, you are missing my point. Why can't Northern make better arrangements to sell & check tickets at the stations or on board, rather than use agency staff to make a half-arsed effort at the terminus?

455driver said:
It would be interesting to see how much more revenue is taken at Bradford FS during theses blocks compared to a normal day!

You might be better to compare how much extra revenue was taken during previous blocks where tickets were sold on the platforms, and how much was gained by simply waving people in the direction of the ticket office where they could simply walk through & leave by another exit. This is the whole point of my moan, Northern have taken on the services of a bunch of agency staff who are clearly untrained (I haven't seen any of the usual, more experienced Northern staff with them), unable to properly protect revenue, and are just causing delays for passengers, regardless if they already have a ticket or not. The money spent on these agency workers would be better spent on full time staff on board services helping the guards by acting as a second ticket seller / checker.
 

TUC

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As for the "inconveniencing passengers to keep the unions happy", oh pulease change the f+++++g record will ya or post something to substantiate the crap you post!
I wont hold my breath! :roll:

Simple equation-Having staff (agency or otherwise) who could sell tickets and so reduce queues but not allowing them to do so=longer queues and inconvienienced passengers
 

Flamingo

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I'm not familiar with that area, and don't know what options the disembarking passengers would have had to buy before arriving, but I do know that the prospect of facing a long queue at their destination acts as as pretty good incentive to get people to buy before they reach there.

The railway is a business, and people can bleat on about "Customer Service" all they want but eventually it comes down to "Give us the f****** money" ( if you are old enough to remember that!)
 

Bantamzen

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I'm not familiar with that area, and don't know what options the disembarking passengers would have had to buy before arriving, but I do know that the prospect of facing a long queue at their destination acts as as pretty good incentive to get people to buy before they reach there.

The railway is a business, and people can bleat on about "Customer Service" all they want but eventually it comes down to "Give us the f****** money" ( if you are old enough to remember that!)

The problem is, as I mentioned in my original post, is that where I board at Basildon there is no ticket office or machine, so we have to rely on the guards being able to attend to the entire train (which is always a 4 car class 333). So we have no option whatsoever.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm not familiar with that area, and don't know what options the disembarking passengers would have had to buy before arriving

It depends on where they have travelled from.

Most of the stations on that line do have ticket offices (single window), but some of the smaller ones (Saltaire, Frizinghall and Baildon spring to mind) don't have ticket offices and I don't think Baildon even has a TVM. Forster Square's ticket office has two windows, one of which is usually closed, and the TVMs only sell tickets from Forster Square (and don't seem to like "offline" debit cards either, for that matter!)

The trains are four carriages, full, and staffed with a single guard selling tickets. Stations are 2-5 minutes apart, so there's no chance of getting through the train.

There's nothing wrong with the ticket blocks, but when Northern first started doing them at Forster Square they had revenue staff there who were able to sell tickets. Now they don't.
 
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