What was the most important line to be closed?

[Leylandlad]

The S&C reprieve anniversary got me thinking again about this.

Excluding the ECML through Selby, which was specifically replaced, what other lines could be described as really important, as opposed to obscure branch lines? ie Strategic through routes which carried main line trains.

I'm thinking...

Great Central main line
Waverley Line
Lincolnshire main line
Dumfries-Stranraer direct
Somerset & Dorset
Matlock-Buxton
Kirkham-Blackpool Central was one of the busiest to close...

 

[TheEdge]

Woodhead would probably be up there. Another one (although on a much smaller scale) would be Aberystwyth - Carmarthen.

 

[SeanG]

Where did the Lincolnshire main line run to/from?

 

[Leylandlad]

Where did the Lincolnshire main line run to/from?

Boston to Grimsby

I had to look it up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Lincolnshire_Railway

 

[Kite159]

Didcot-Newbury-Southampton line, would have helped with the freight traffic heading towards the Midlands by bypassing Basingstoke & Reading

 

[edwin_m]

Melton to Nottingham and Swinton to Normanton were arguably parts of the Midland's main line and closed in the 60s and 80s respectively.

Stratford to Cheltenham was the GWR's main line between Bristol and Birmingham.

Snow Hill to Wolverhampton was the GWR's main line between London and Birkinhead.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Didcot-Newbury-Southampton line, would have helped with the freight traffic heading towards the Midlands by bypassing Basingstoke & Reading

Doubtful - as today you would never get across the GW main line - ! - and the operational limitations of a single track route. It is replicated by the resignalling of the Reading - Basing line (shortly to be wired) and the increased signalling headways on there (which I had something to do with back in the day)
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Never mind the past - look at the future .......

 

[Bevan Price]

Whilst I was sorry to see any line closed, some of those suggested above were slow, difficult routes serving relatively low populations (e.g. Dumfries - Stranraer, Somerset & Dorset)
In my opinion, some of the silliest closures were those that deprived some pretty large towns of their rail services, e.g. Mansfield (since reopened), Leigh, Ashington, etc.

For "main" lines, regrettable closures were those that affected routes that could have been useful alternative / diversionary routes., e.g.:
Perth - Forfar - (Aberdeen)
Matlock - Manchester (Central)
Stratford - Cheltenham Spa
Spalding - Boston - Grimsby
Southern route, Exeter - Tavistock - Plymouth
GC Main Line (but primarily to take freight off other routes)
Waverley route (again, mainly for freight.)

 

[Donny Dave]

Woodhead would probably be up there. Another one (although on a much smaller scale) would be Aberystwyth - Carmarthen.

When I saw the thread title, I did wonder how long it would be before the Woodhead route would be mentioned if it wasn't in the original post....

Was it that important though? It basically replicated the Hope Valley, except it went through the middle of nowhere, and not that far to the North, you have the route via Stanedge Tunnel, plus the Calder Valley. In the grand scheme of things, I would say that Woodhead wasn't an important route ....

 

[W-on-Sea]

Woodhead, I think ranks very near the top of the list: a strategic line for both freight and passenger trains, without much in the way of local transport to slow those down, directly linking two major cities and their surrounding industries and regions, without the capacity problems of the line that effectively replaced it.
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Ah, there appears to be some disagreement on this matter...

 

[Hardcastle]

Preston-Southport both large towns & Colne-Skipton connecting large towns plus those already mentioned deserved merit.

 

[Leylandlad]

Woodhead, I think ranks very near the top of the list: a strategic line for both freight and passenger trains, without much in the way of local transport to slow those down, directly linking two major cities and their surrounding industries and regions, without the capacity problems of the line that effectively replaced it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ah, there appears to be some disagreement on this matter...

The first reply from TheEdge said the Woodhead and straight away I thought I'd missed an obvious one

But thinking about it, there's another direct Manchester-Sheffield line not at capacity, so nostalgia aside, it isn't missed.

I'm trying to be brutal and economic with this thread chaps, not nostalgic...we do that on other threads

 

[RichmondCommu]

The first reply from TheEdge said the Woodhead and straight away I thought I'd missed an obvious one

But thinking about it, there's another direct Manchester-Sheffield line not at capacity, so nostalgia aside, it isn't missed.

I'm trying to be brutal and economic with this thread chaps, not nostalgic...we do that on other threads

I'm sorry but this is simply not the case. Freight loops are to be installed at Grindleford because of capacity issues on the Hope Valley route, not to mention the additional work that is to take place at Dore. Don't forget that the Hope Valley route is used by a mixture of freight, local stopping service and fast TPE services.

The Woodhead route has been lost forever but it did provide a much quicker route between Sheffield and Manchester. Not to mention the fact that it would have had no local traffic east of Hadfield and no freight! This is not about nostalgia; it’s about hard faced facts!

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm sorry but this is simply not the case. Freight loops are to be installed at Grindleford because of capacity issues on the Hope Valley route, not to mention the additional work that is to take place at Dore. Don't forget that the Hope Valley route is used by a mixture of freight, local stopping service and fast TPE services.

The Woodhead route has been lost forever but it did provide a much quicker route between Sheffield and Manchester. Not to mention the fact that it would have had no local traffic east of Hadfield and no freight! This is not about nostalgia; it’s about hard faced facts!

In fact it wasn't a lot quicker than the Hope Valley route. Numerous curves, and speeds mainly limited to 60/65 mph prevented high speed running**. If it, and the GCR London extension had been retained, I think the main use of Woodhead would have been as part of an alternative South - North freight route.

** -Near the end of passenger services, we did once touch about 75 mph south of Penistone. Someone asked the driver what speed he had reached. He replied something like "65 mph - bot I think the speedo may be reading a bit low"

 

[yorksrob]

Hard facts. Lines we need now.

Because of the politically motivated and poorly planned way in which the closure programme was carried out, there are unfortunately so many.

Start with the biggies obviously:

Chinley - Matlock
Lewes - Tunbridge Wells Central
Okehampton - Bere Alston
Great Central
Skipton - Colne
Bournemouth - Bath
Alton - Winchester
York - Beverley
Anything closed after 1970

these ones are quite well known, however, there are some others that aren't generally recognised, yet that I think would be useful today:

Eridge - Polegate, Hailsham and Heathfield would surely have a lot of commuter traffic today

Lowestoft - Yarmouth - it seems ridiculous that the two largest towns in the area no longer have a rail link, along with Gorelston.

Bodmin Road - Padstow, this should be thriving along with the other Cornish branches

Wymondham - Hunstanton, via Dereham and Kings Lynn, a useful local link

 

[RichmondCommu]

In fact it wasn't a lot quicker than the Hope Valley route. Numerous curves, and speeds mainly limited to 60/65 mph prevented high speed running**. If it, and the GCR London extension had been retained, I think the main use of Woodhead would have been as part of an alternative South - North freight route.

** -Near the end of passenger services, we did once touch about 75 mph south of Penistone. Someone asked the driver what speed he had reached. He replied something like "65 mph - bot I think the speedo may be reading a bit low"

Thanks for a very interesting post. I'm curious to know how many of those speed restrictions were caused by the condition that the infrastructure was in as opposed to anything more permanent?

 

[Leylandlad]

I'm sorry but this is simply not the case. Freight loops are to be installed at Grindleford because of capacity issues on the Hope Valley route, not to mention the additional work that is to take place at Dore. Don't forget that the Hope Valley route is used by a mixture of freight, local stopping service and fast TPE services.

The Woodhead route has been lost forever but it did provide a much quicker route between Sheffield and Manchester. Not to mention the fact that it would have had no local traffic east of Hadfield and no freight! This is not about nostalgia; it’s about hard faced facts!

The Minister thought otherwise :roll:

On 18 January 2012 during a debate on the proposed Northern Hub (formerly known as the Manchester Rail Hub), Theresa Villiers, the Minister for Rail and Aviation, said "The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has again called for the reopening of the Woodhead route. I have to say that was not one that was prioritised as part of the Northern Hub because of the capacity that is still available on the Hope Valley line."

Then again, she did get shunted off to Northern Ireland soon after

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Minister thought otherwise :roll:

On 18 January 2012 during a debate on the proposed Northern Hub (formerly known as the Manchester Rail Hub), Theresa Villiers, the Minister for Rail and Aviation, said "The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has again called for the reopening of the Woodhead route. I have to say that was not one that was prioritised as part of the Northern Hub because of the capacity that is still available on the Hope Valley line."

Then again, she did get shunted off to Northern Ireland soon after

This certainly seemed to be at odds with the what Network Rail had concluded. However there was never any chance that the Woodhead route would have been re-opened.

In all fairness I would have to say that the S & D and the Waverley Route are not missed.

 

[yorksrob]

Waverley Route are not missed.

The Scots clearly disagree, and demonstrate it by their actions.

I also suspect the S&D would be doing a good old trade were it still around.

Woodhead, rather it were there, but to me, the limitations of the Hope Valley line seem to cry out more for the need for Chinley - Matlock than Woodhead at present.

 

[Greenback]

It's interesting to speculate on how services would look now had some of these lines not have been closed.

Take the Waverley route. Would it have been electrified to allow through services to Edinburgh rather than travelling via Carstairs? Or would it have been left to be run as a dieselised local service between Carlisla and the Scottish capital, perhaps with a few extensions at each end to improve diagramming?

 

[Yew]

I don't think its the GCML, Although it would be useful today, I think in the face of dwindling passenger numbers, in the time after beeching, keeping it open would not have made sense.

I think the Lincolnshire mainline should have been kept, purely to close the gap from grimsby to skegness, hopefully leading to a more useful service.

 

[Western Lord]

It's interesting to speculate on how services would look now had some of these lines not have been closed.

Take the Waverley route. Would it have been electrified to allow through services to Edinburgh rather than travelling via Carstairs? Or would it have been left to be run as a dieselised local service between Carlisla and the Scottish capital, perhaps with a few extensions at each end to improve diagramming?

Why would you want to extend Carlisle-Edinburgh journey times by more than an hour? The Waverley route would never be anything other than a slow local service. I agree that Bodmin Road-Padstow was a stupid closure, more to do with old company rivalries than lack of traffic potential (the GWR dominated Western Region's determination to eliminate as much of the old LSWR routes as possible). Compared to, say, Liskeard to Looe, the potential of a Plymouth-Bodmin-Wadebridge-Padstow service would be much greater. Padstow is considered one of Cornwall's hotspots (largely thanks to Rick Stein) in spite of not having seen a train for over 45 years, which rather diminishes the claims of the importance of rail to Cornwall's tourist industry.
The Woodhead route was scuppered by it's lack of connections to the main network at the Sheffield end, requiring a separate staion in Sheffield, similarly the Great Central rather ran out of options at the London end. The Lincolnshire main line from Spalding to Grimsby was sunk by the enormous number of level crossings and lack of traffic. Wath Road Junction to Normanton was a very short sighted closure in view of the current lack of capacity between Leeds and Sheffield.
Many potentially viable routes were closed when a short piece of new line could have plugged them in to the main network, but this hardly ever happened. The Hazel Grove chord is a rare example of how this could have worked.
In Scotland, Aberdeen-Ellon-Peterhead would probably be a busy link thanks to the oil industry. In Glasgow a rebuilt and enlarged St. Enoch, having links both north and south, could, perhaps, have replaced Central and Queen Street (high level terminus platforms).

 

[matchmaker]

The Perth-Forfar-Kinnaber route. It would make for a far faster service to Aberdeen.

 

[Greenback]

Why would you want to extend Carlisle-Edinburgh journey times by more than an hour? The Waverley route would never be anything other than a slow local service.

The question is, whether in an alternate and more illuminated timeline, the route could have been developed rather than closed. What measures
could have been taken to upgrade the line? What might have been the result?

I realise that all this pre supposes that different decisions were made, but it's just a bit of speculative fun.

 

[RT4038]

If closure had not been approved back in 1969, the Waverley Line would likely have been rationalised severely: certainly converted to single track throughout with freight traffic diverted via Carstairs (as it was anyway). I expect that the train service would have been converted to DMUs, running every 2 hours between Edinburgh and Hawick ( requiring one intermediate passing loop) , a loop at Hawick and every 4 hours between Hawick and Carlisle with no loops. The line was full of sharp curves, and the opportunity would have been taken to ease these out during singling, which may have cut the journey time slightly.

The problem with this scenario is that this same situation could have been played out on many of the lines put forward for retention in this thread - however all would have been loss making and the subsidy/investment/renewal jam spread thinner over more route mileage. This would probably have made the startling (compared to 60yrs ago) frequency improvements on many secondary services that currently remain all the more unlikely to have happened.

 

[danensis]

The Woodhead route was scuppered by it's lack of connections to the main network at the Sheffield end, requiring a separate staion in Sheffield

I seem to recall that when we got the train from Doncaster to Sheffield, it came into Victoria, and Doncaster is on "the main network".

 

[Greenback]

I was trying to stimulate a discussion on what might have happened had there not been such a focus on stemming the losses and trying to turn the network into a profit making core. We seem to accept now that such a thing is impossible, so I just wondered what might have happened if such a view had been in place instead of the dogma of Beeching's time.

But it seems like such a discussion is a non starter!

 

[Leylandlad]

I was trying to stimulate a discussion on what might have happened had there not been such a focus on stemming the losses and trying to turn the network into a profit making core. We seem to accept now that such a thing is impossible, so I just wondered what might have happened if such a view had been in place instead of the dogma of Beeching's time.

But it seems like such a discussion is a non starter!

David Steel often says the Waverley Line could have been kept open from Hawick to Edinburgh had the Scottish Secretary been prepared to work with him.

So if BR had single tracked it, with say 2 loops and run a dmu every 90 min what would the subsidy have been?

How would the subsidy have compared with the cost of reopening to Tweedbank...let alone Hawick?

 

[Quakers Yard]

In my area Merthyr to Abergavenny and Brecon.
It is extremely hard to get around Wales for those who dont drive.
Treherbert to Swansea also.
Not main lines but very valuable nonetheless.
Cut a valley/area off and it will suffer...Cynon valley reopening showed what benefits it will bring.

 

[Greenback]

David Steel often says the Waverley Line could have been kept open from Hawick to Edinburgh had the Scottish Secretary been prepared to work with him.

So if BR had single tracked it, with say 2 loops and run a dmu every 90 min what would the subsidy have been?

How would the subsidy have compared with the cost of reopening to Tweedbank...let alone Hawick?

The cost of reinstating double track on other lines indicates that it's far, far more expensive to do so than the money saved by singling in the first place.

The closure was all down to the policy of closing duplicate routes, regardless of the intermediate stations and thie rhinterlands, which, granted, are not exactly populous.

I don't think in the context of the times that there was any realistic prospect of the line being retained as a main line, but retaining the Hawick section would have made sense. But that's with hindsight!

In my area Merthyr to Abergavenny and Brecon.
It is extremely hard to get around Wales for those who dont drive.
Treherbert to Swansea also.
Not main lines but very valuable nonetheless.
Cut a valley/area off and it will suffer...Cynon valley reopening showed what benefits it will bring.

Those three routes have been a big loss in south Wales. Another line that, I think, would have prospered today is the closed section of the HoWL between Pontardulais and Swansea.

Had it remained, this would have served a well off commuting belt of west Swansea - Gorseinon, Gowerton, Dunvant and Killay, as well as giving better access to the city centre, which has moved away from the traditional area of High St, the foreshore of the bay and Mumbles.

I'm sure some way could have been found to utilise the old freight route from Swansea Victoria and Swansea High St, allowing trains to serve both the southern end of the city and the marina area, as well as providing connections with the main line.