First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[swifty]

I think the 332 should have been re-numbered 32 instead of 37, or 46 and group it with the 44 & 45 which also goes via Hanham. As the 37 allthough a Bristol-Bath service goes a very different route to the 38, 39, X39. Also I note from the timetable the timetabled journey duration is now about 1 hour 5 minutes. Compared to about 50 minutes when it was the 332? So is the 37 now getting a lot more passengers using it within Bristol?

Kelston Road is closed, it's slowly sliding down the hill, so both the 37 and 319 (plus the majority of the other traffic) now runs via Saltford, Keynsham and Willsbridge before resuming normal routes. As you can imagine running time is increased.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Another short working today in Bristol, this time Streetlite 47447 on the 8 from the station only to the centre (seen at Old Market roundabout).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Kelston Road is closed, it's slowly sliding down the hill, so both the 37 and 319 (plus the majority of the other traffic) now runs via Saltford, Keynsham and Willsbridge before resuming normal routes. As you can imagine running time is increased.

Yep, with the 619 operating from Kelston to Bitton

 

[Private Baxter]

Apart from the ones that have Hengrove still on them....

The Westbury outstation operates the 265 mainly. I think I said it was a PVR of 11 before, of which about 9 are Westbury based. The outstation also operates 6 vehicles on the 234 and 267 which interwork via Frome (though Matt Splatt indicated that they might look to speed up the 267 and operate it from Bath depot and stop the interworking).

Other Westbury work is the Frome Town Service (one Solo) and the Trowbridge locals (2 vehicles - anything from Solos to B6s and MPDs). Westbury took on one bus from Melksham and a fair bit of Frome.

Historically, the fortunes have waxed and waned over the years. There are a number of routes that were Bristol OC/Badgerline and then lost/regained/lost again. The 77/87 was lost, got back with the purchase of Clapton Coaches, then partly lost and then totally lost a few years back. One bus on the 49 to Swindon was also a First run, and I can remember having a great trip on the Devizes to Chippenham service on an ageing Badgerline VR!

Interesting stuff, thanks for all info!

Didn't realise that 265 was worked predominently from Westbury, although it would make sense. There are 17 B7s allocated to Bath, 11 of them for 265, (more than I thought actually, thought it was just 9), leaving six to share 231 and 37 duties. (In theory anyway).

I'm also interested to what services for Radstock did MH used to run that required an outstation.

Oh and I agree, services 309/310 do seem a little out of place now on the numbering system so wouldn't be surprised if they change later this year...

 

[stait.john]

The Part Route 8 was possibly a No Relief or late relief situation, so the bus would be left there or taken to Marlborough Street until the following duty takes over.
John

 

[starrymarkb]

Kelston Road is closed, it's slowly sliding down the hill, so both the 37 and 319 (plus the majority of the other traffic) now runs via Saltford, Keynsham and Willsbridge before resuming normal routes. As you can imagine running time is increased.

And given the repairs are going to be 6 months minimum, the timetables have been updated to take the diversion into account.

 

[freetoview33]

I'm doubtful it will end up opening this year

 

[matt_splat]

I have been informed of the following surrounding work from Westbury Depot

260 /263
234
265
236
30

are services ran from Westbury depot (may have missed one or two Trowbridge locals)

184 - now this ones interesting
Two busses on the duty are Westbury one bus is Bath

trips starting at Frome in the morning are ran by Westbury Outstation the drivers then work the short trips in between and spend Most of the day apparently on the 184s then during the afternoon apparently one Westbury driver travels from Westbury to Bath as a passenger on a 265 the driver then does a trip to Frome a return trip to Bath before I believe doing the evening 267s from Bath - Frome at 21:15 and then the last 267 before the bus returns to Westbury. (yet to properly confirm the last part)

 

[freetoview33]

They need to up the 70 to every 20 mins on a Sunday

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting stuff, thanks for all info!

Didn't realise that 265 was worked predominently from Westbury, although it would make sense. There are 17 B7s allocated to Bath, 11 of them for 265, (more than I thought actually, thought it was just 9), leaving six to share 231 and 37 duties. (In theory anyway).

I'm also interested to what services for Radstock did MH used to run that required an outstation.

Oh and I agree, services 309/310 do seem a little out of place now on the numbering system so wouldn't be surprised if they change later this year...

Interesting about the 184. The 234 and 267 interwork and so that Frome to Bath service should be Westbury operated but the 184? BTW, I think all the 265 is Westbury but in truth, it would take some time for me to work it out from the timetable.

The 10 (Corsham town) is run by Bath, with the mini running empty to take up the service.

As for the old Badgerline Radstock outbases, I did do a little research, and also had a bit of a moment of clarity, as alcoholics call it.

The MH outbase was probably a two vehicle job to cover the old 365/366 workings (originally done by MH) which later became the 665/666 (I think). Later on (1989), there were Minilink services 180/1 that operated Radstock to MSN.

The BH outbase was, I think, the Clapton Coaches compound that came with the purchase of that firm in 1992/3? This was what I remembered. I'd imagine the old MH location (wherever that was) was then combined into the one location. By that time, the Radstock to Bristol service (peak time services into Bristol that were the precursor of the 379) were the 465/6 operated by Clapton. Other CC workings moved to either Bath or Trowbridge (e.g. 77/87)

In the end, I think the 179, and some 178 workings were operated there until, as you're right in thinking, it made more sense to work them from Bath. In the meantime, much of the tendered work had been lost to Somerbus, CT Coaches and the like.

 

[ValleyLines142]

They need to up the 70 to every 20 mins on a Sunday

I've never used the 70 on a Sunday. Is it generally quite busy?

 

[freetoview33]

Every time I have seen it it's been fairly full up. And I saw a 47 earlier packed.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Increasing the 70 from 30 to 20 min frequency will push the vehicle requirement up from 3 to 5; probably explains why they haven't done it thus far

 

[Private Baxter]

Interesting about the 184. The 234 and 267 interwork and so that Frome to Bath service should be Westbury operated but the 184? BTW, I think all the 265 is Westbury but in truth, it would take some time for me to work it out from the timetable.

The 10 (Corsham town) is run by Bath, with the mini running empty to take up the service.

As for the old Badgerline Radstock outbases, I did do a little research, and also had a bit of a moment of clarity, as alcoholics call it.

The MH outbase was probably a two vehicle job to cover the old 365/366 workings (originally done by MH) which later became the 665/666 (I think). Later on (1989), there were Minilink services 180/1 that operated Radstock to MSN.

The BH outbase was, I think, the Clapton Coaches compound that came with the purchase of that firm in 1992/3? This was what I remembered. I'd imagine the old MH location (wherever that was) was then combined into the one location. By that time, the Radstock to Bristol service (peak time services into Bristol that were the precursor of the 379) were the 465/6 operated by Clapton. Other CC workings moved to either Bath or Trowbridge (e.g. 77/87)

In the end, I think the 179, and some 178 workings were operated there until, as you're right in thinking, it made more sense to work them from Bath. In the meantime, much of the tendered work had been lost to Somerbus, CT Coaches and the like.

Thanks for all that, so much I didn't know!

Back on the whole Webberbus thing, I still wonder about their services into Wells. (38 btw has never been displayed properly), don't really know how well used they are, but with the soon to beintroduced route 26, and extended 67, that's now five routes Wells to Bridgwater! Saaying that I'm surprised they hadn't taken over the 174 when it was withdrawn last July by extending one of their routes, such as the 37....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thanks for all that, so much I didn't know!

Back on the whole Webberbus thing, I still wonder about their services into Wells. (38 btw has never been displayed properly), don't really know how well used they are, but with the soon to beintroduced route 26, and extended 67, that's now five routes Wells to Bridgwater! Saaying that I'm surprised they hadn't taken over the 174 when it was withdrawn last July by extending one of their routes, such as the 37....

No worries. Badgerline had a lot of interesting services around Norton following the purchase of Clapton Coaches and Somerbus. A lot has changed since I began visiting regularly (1991/2), moving here and up to now

Nobody used the 174 except a few pensioners so not really worth it. Webberbus aren't in it for philanthropic reasons!! Besides, many wander down and get the 173. The 26/67 will only really run to Weston/Burnham with Bridgwater as placement journeys. Went past Wells depot yesterday. Only 2 Darts visible with an Eclipse in maintenance bay.

 

[freetoview33]

Yes it would increase the requirement but the 70 really really needs a major improvement!

 

[vicbury]

So the 09-reg Enviro 200s have been here in Bath for a few months now, having used them a lot, I'm not sure what the Bristolians were complaining about! They are fairly comfortable and a massive step up from the S-reg Darts on the 14.

On a related note, following the consultation earlier in the year, does anyone know when we can expect to see fare changes in Bath?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes it would increase the requirement but the 70 really really needs a major improvement!

I doubt if adding two extra vehicles will pay for itself and loadings haven't been that high on other days when I've seen it. Probably higher yesterday because of the Park and Slide event.

 

[ValleyLines142]

So the 09-reg Enviro 200s have been here in Bath for a few months now, having used them a lot, I'm not sure what the Bristolians were complaining about! They are fairly comfortable and a massive step up from the S-reg Darts on the 14.

They were nice buses but they were FAR too small for Bristol, especially for cross-city routes such as the 24 and 25.

 

[freetoview33]

The streetlites are much better suited to the 24 not as sure about the X39 and 8 and 9

 

[ValleyLines142]

The streetlites are much better suited to the 24 not as sure about the X39 and 8 and 9

I was just thinking I think they're perfect for the 8 and 9 but I agree with the X39. I think Bath should have a dozen or so Enviro 400s for the X39 and have 63068-63078 working local Bath services.

 

[Class 33]

Didn't like those particular Enviro 200's that used to be on the 24 & 25 atall. Horrid things in my opinion. Found the seating not very comfortable atall. And at busy times when all seats are in use and people are standing, even more of an uncomfortable ride and feeling somewhat claustrophobic too. Plus the gangways were too narrow too, which aren't helpful when the bus is overloaded and people need to get on and off. Not suited to services 24 & 25 atall. They would be suitable for much quieter and shorter distance services, of which I can't think of any examples of other Bristol city services they would have been suitable on anyway. The Streetlites are a hell of a lot more suitable and better on the 24 & 25.

Freetoview33, maybe DanTrainMan185 too, and anyone else who feels strongly about the 70 and the unsuitability of single deckers and/or the service not being frequent enough. I would suggest strongly you email or write to First Bristol to bring the subject up. Telling them that services are frequently over-crowded and your suggestions on ways to improve this. There has been some good suggestions from us on here about ways to improve the service. But I don't expect management at First Bristol read this thread! Maybe just maybe they just might take your comments seriously and act on it(possibly in time for the September 7th changes, but might be too late now if timetable adjustments are required). I would do so myself but not really necessary to be honest, asI can manage without the 70 and get the 73, 75, or 76 instead. And also will be moving away from Horfield fairly soon anyway. But I certainly would still like to see the 70 get the improved service it does really need.

Oh and I agree. Even though the Streetlites are nice on the X39 when not very busy. At busy times they are over-crowded. They need double deckers on this service really. For a while(don't know how long exactly), the X39 was every 15 minutes AND a double decker only service. It should be like that now!

 

[freetoview33]

I have frequently emailed First about the 70 among other things. The streetlites would be more suited to the 37 and 38 but even then I'm not sure.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

X39 was only deckers from late 96 until early 99. Through the late 80s/early 90s, two bph were X39 with the others being X3 (mix of deckers and Nationals) and X4 (W&D Tigers and badgerline Nationals). From 92 to 96, the X4 was replaced by another X39. My notes of trips from the early 90s had Mk1 Nationals working the Sunday 339s! Mind, the 332 was a decker route but mainly because Eastern National/Thamesway donated a lot of spare VRs to help replace knackered Nationals

Half the Mon to Fri X39s are deckers, drawn from the eight Geminis and built around key heavily loaded boards. Where the Streetlites tend to suffer is when you have bunching in service where one is packed out followed by a half full one 5 mins behind. Certainly, a 15 min service with deckers would help that.

However, unless the Sunday 70 can be interworked with something else, you can't easily increase the frequency to 20 mins. Increasing costs by two thirds would be prohibitive as a standalone. If it's only "fairly full" on a day with a big event on, I can't see how it would pay to add two extra vehicles into the cycle; the 40 min journey time makes it really awkward.

That said, it is quite incredible how Sunday services have generally improved over time. The 376 had only 4 on a Sunday (with minibuses) whilst the 173 only had 3 trips. The 267 had nothing at all! However, the 231 still only goes two hourly whereas the 265 is now hourly.

As for e200s, they're ok for some routes but one of the worst journeys I ever had was Rhosilli to Swansea. Bangs and rattles on a fast, rural route that will last with me! Ok for 14s but they have appeared on the 267 recently!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for all that, so much I didn't know!

Back on the whole Webberbus thing, I still wonder about their services into Wells. (38 btw has never been displayed properly), don't really know how well used they are, but with the soon to beintroduced route 26, and extended 67, that's now five routes Wells to Bridgwater! Saaying that I'm surprised they hadn't taken over the 174 when it was withdrawn last July by extending one of their routes, such as the 37....

Just checked you're right - 265 is nine vehicles. So with Matt Splatt's revelations about the 184, it could be that Westbury has quite an allocation:

265 (9)
234/267 (6)
184 (2)
260 (1)
236 (1)
30 (1)

If that's all correct, then Westbury has a PVR of 20. That's more than TE depot had when it closed in 1983, and similar to WS! No wonder the Melksham to Bath service got moved to BH!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was just thinking I think they're perfect for the 8 and 9 but I agree with the X39. I think Bath should have a dozen or so Enviro 400s for the X39 and have 63068-63078 working local Bath services.

For a 15 min frequency, you'd only need 8 plus a spare. Currently 10 plus a spare, hence 11 though with interworking, that's only a theoretical allocation at the moment

 

[ValleyLines142]

For a 15 min frequency, you'd only need 8 plus a spare. Currently 10 plus a spare, hence 11 though with interworking, that's only a theoretical allocation at the moment

Does the X39 warrant a fifteen minute frequency though?

Also saw a picture last night of Gemini 37760 on the 70 about two years ago. Made me very depressed!

With regards to the Enviro 200s, I noticed there was a brief phase where they were mainly used on the 20 when the Streetlites arrived for the 24 and 25. I think they would have been good for the 20, as now that is operated by the 427xx range of Darts (R7xxBAE).

 

[Private Baxter]

X39 was only deckers from late 96 until early 99. Through the late 80s/early 90s, two bph were X39 with the others being X3 (mix of deckers and Nationals) and X4 (W&D Tigers and badgerline Nationals). From 92 to 96, the X4 was replaced by another X39. My notes of trips from the early 90s had Mk1 Nationals working the Sunday 339s! Mind, the 332 was a decker route but mainly because Eastern National/Thamesway donated a lot of spare VRs to help replace knackered Nationals

Half the Mon to Fri X39s are deckers, drawn from the eight Geminis and built around key heavily loaded boards. Where the Streetlites tend to suffer is when you have bunching in service where one is packed out followed by a half full one 5 mins behind. Certainly, a 15 min service with deckers would help that.

However, unless the Sunday 70 can be interworked with something else, you can't easily increase the frequency to 20 mins. Increasing costs by two thirds would be prohibitive as a standalone. If it's only "fairly full" on a day with a big event on, I can't see how it would pay to add two extra vehicles into the cycle; the 40 min journey time makes it really awkward.

That said, it is quite incredible how Sunday services have generally improved over time. The 376 had only 4 on a Sunday (with minibuses) whilst the 173 only had 3 trips. The 267 had nothing at all! However, the 231 still only goes two hourly whereas the 265 is now hourly.

As for e200s, they're ok for some routes but one of the worst journeys I ever had was Rhosilli to Swansea. Bangs and rattles on a fast, rural route that will last with me! Ok for 14s but they have appeared on the 267 recently!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just checked you're right - 265 is nine vehicles. So with Matt Splatt's revelations about the 184, it could be that Westbury has quite an allocation:

265 (9)
234/267 (6)
184 (2)
260 (1)
236 (1)
30 (1)

If that's all correct, then Westbury has a PVR of 20. That's more than TE depot had when it closed in 1983, and similar to WS! No wonder the Melksham to Bath service got moved to BH!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


For a 15 min frequency, you'd only need 8 plus a spare. Currently 10 plus a spare, hence 11 though with interworking, that's only a theoretical allocation at the moment

Ah brilliant. Great clarity. That makes enough exactly enough B7s for 265, 231 and 37, though realistaclly they frequently work 18 and other services.

Sunday services, the main ones tend to operate half the amount they do in the week. If it's hourly service, it's two hours, if it's half hourly it's every hour etc. About five years ago there were a lot more; there were 377s, 161s, 375s, now, in Wells at least it's very small.

Westbury outstation does sound about the same size as Wells depot, which I think keeps about twenty, but the depot is not big enough for the whole fleet, so a third stays elsewhere, and one stays in Yeovil. Surprised there were so few in the depot today, hardly any should be out on bank holiday.

Re 174, when I lived up that way I never used the service, choosing either to walk or use 173. It actually did take quite a few passengers though, although like you say mostly pensioners. Just thought it could be tacked onto the end of Webber's 37, making it slightly more profitable. But you're right, unlikely, and not a big deal. (Surprised 174 went on for as long as it did actually. I always anticipated the next service changes including the withdrawal of that service, but it always escaped. Till last year that is...)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does the X39 warrant a fifteen minute frequency though?

Also saw a picture last night of Gemini 37760 on the 70 about two years ago. Made me very depressed!

With regards to the Enviro 200s, I noticed there was a brief phase where they were mainly used on the 20 when the Streetlites arrived for the 24 and 25. I think they would have been good for the 20, as now that is operated by the 427xx range of Darts (R7xxBAE).

Reduce the X39 from every 12 to say every 20? That would take seats per hour from 205 (5 x 41) to 225 (3 x 75 if it were e400 similar to 33825 et al).

Perhaps drop the 70 from 15 to 20 mins and reduce the PVR from 7 Eclipses to 5 deckers with seats per hour going from 176 (4 x 43 on Eclipses) to 222 (3 x 74 on Geminis)?

Ref the e200s, Bath had a much more pressing need with a lot of older kit to be replaced with a number of step floor Darts still operating at the time. Made sense to spread the love around rather than replace M/N regs with R regs. Of course, Bath still enjoys those lovely SPDs!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sunday services, the main ones tend to operate half the amount they do in the week. If it's hourly service, it's two hours, if it's half hourly it's every hour etc. About five years ago there were a lot more; there were 377s, 161s, 375s, now, in Wells at least it's very small.

Westbury outstation does sound about the same size as Wells depot, which I think keeps about twenty, but the depot is not big enough for the whole fleet, so a third stays elsewhere, and one stays in Yeovil. Surprised there were so few in the depot today, hardly any should be out on bank holiday.

As a rough rule of thumb, Sunday services can be like that but many an hourly daytime service sees no Sunday service (e.g. Chippenham to Frome). The 161, 375 and 377 only got Sunday services because of council funding initially (as did many others in Somerset under the 9** series).

When Somerset pulled the subsidy, the absolute basket cases disappeared (e.g. 161 which can barely sustain a daytime M-S service - Shepton to Frome is subsidised) as did the 375. The 377 continued commercially and the 375 was brought back but without the subsidy, they just didn't pay.

I don't think Wells garage anything now at other than the depot now. Yeovil runs are definitely all from WS. With 11 vehicles parked up (2 Dart, 5 Eclipse and 4 Renown) plus I assume another (?) hidden on the left of the depot building, that's 12. With 6 on the road (4 x 376 and 2 x 173), then that's 18 accounted for. Basically, I think at least two Darts missing - at WM/BH? Certainly, you can fit at least 20+ in Priory Road.

Did they have the additional parking area when they had all the other services (e.g. extra 161, 668, 669, 670, one for the 29 etc)?

 

[matt_splat]

I think wells still bark B10s up at the other yard by morrisons and prob also park a few of the solos or darts.

does a B10 still stay in Yeovil for the dupe over night Monday - Friday? I believe at one point the driver would travel down on the 1st bus pick up the bus and take it back to Wells acting as a dupe for the collage run?

Yes Westbury has a massive allocation now it received a fuel tank when the outstations shut at frome and melksham.

and another note it looks like the BANES tender results are out this week / next and are due to be discussed at a cabinet meeting
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the 234 has gone back to 3 busses I think now 2 busses that were on the 267 from westbury do the 184

 

[Class 33]

I have frequently emailed First about the 70 among other things.

What have First said in their replies about the 70? That single deckers are sufficent enough, double deckers are not possible due to the Temple Meads canopy. Or....?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think wells still bark B10s up at the other yard by morrisons and prob also park a few of the solos or darts.

does a B10 still stay in Yeovil for the dupe over night Monday - Friday? I believe at one point the driver would travel down on the 1st bus pick up the bus and take it back to Wells acting as a dupe for the collage run?

Yes Westbury has a massive allocation now it received a fuel tank when the outstations shut at frome and melksham.

and another note it looks like the BANES tender results are out this week / next and are due to be discussed at a cabinet meeting

Don't think Wells have any Solos now, do they? I'd assumed that the parking area was vacated. Certainly don't need it now!!

Be interesting to see what happens with BaNES tenders. Wonder what will survive and who might get what?

See the first rumours of Cornwall tenders are leaking out with West Penwith Community Bus gaining one but losing two. Also PCB winning some on Rame - interesting times

Also, confirmed on BoS FB page that five B7RLEs (probably 55 plate - FHD supposedly getting some too?) are heading from Sheffield for the 28. With the Presidents from Glasgow heading for the 21, wonder where the B7Ls are going? Plymouth or away from BoS/FDC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think wells still bark B10s up at the other yard by morrisons and prob also park a few of the solos or darts.

does a B10 still stay in Yeovil for the dupe over night Monday - Friday? I believe at one point the driver would travel down on the 1st bus pick up the bus and take it back to Wells acting as a dupe for the collage run?

Yes Westbury has a massive allocation now it received a fuel tank when the outstations shut at frome and melksham.

and another note it looks like the BANES tender results are out this week / next and are due to be discussed at a cabinet meeting
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the 234 has gone back to 3 busses I think now 2 busses that were on the 267 from westbury do the 184

234/267 is a 6 vehicle working? Can a Bath driver do that legally or is there some jiggery pokery with 184s in Frome? For example

267 0915 Bath 1019 Frome
234 1030 Frome 1205 Chipp
234 1215 Chipp 1349 Frome
267 1400 Frome 1505 Bath

Is that how they work?