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Signalling problems at Clapham Junction affecting South West Trains

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infobleep

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Another signalling problem for South West Trains. This one is around Clapham Junction.

Unfortunately when I checked the 8.02 Woking to Waterloo was on time but when I arrived into Woking, from Guildford, it was now 18 minutes late.

If only they would allow National Rail Enquiries to automatically work out the delays based on late arrivals. I should really check the arrivals more often.

As was the case the other night, nothing on NRE about the problems. Let's hope SWT put something up there this time.

Now on 8.05 which must hang around at West Byfleet for 8 minutes because the timetable says so, even though the 8.02 was cancelled and we will get delayed further up the line!

They do sometimes cancel trains and stops when running late but how about converting this to the 8.02 and then making the delayed 8.02, the service which stops at Byfleet and New Haw. I've suggested this before on here but not to SWT because I wouldn't know who to contact. Not sure if customer services would pass my suggestion to the right department or person who puts in place emergency timetable changes.


UPDATE: They have announced the problems online, unfortunately it is and was only displaying on the Clapham Junction online departure board, of those I have saved in my APP. I think because it's at Queens Town Road and trains that head north through Earlsfield don't stop there, it isn't displaying on many of the other online departure boards.

Not having much time this morning and only seeing 2 trains listed late at one point, I didn't check the Clapham Junction departure board. I should have done then I might have taken an alternative route to work.

They are also doing their thing of apologising for trains that are running 3 minutes late when you go into the individual train running details, whilst saying nothing against trains running 18 or more minutes late.

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infobleep

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Just had a twitter conversation when I was told it's not possible to swap train services due to crews and millage. To be fair I don't think they fully understood the situation due to twitters character limit.

Anyway it must surely be possible because they have terminated the West of England services short and are stopping some other services additionally at Berrylands and New Malden. I was only suggesting swapping two services which terminate at the same place and bar 1 station, stop at the same stations.

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455driver

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West of Englands stop short at Basingstoke, run into the Sidings and form their booked services back West, no stock changes and no crew displacement.

It is a regular occurance during disruption!
 

infobleep

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That's handy that they can do that. Shows how well the timetables are drawn up. I guess the rolling stock isn't used elsewhere, if it's the type I'm thinking of.

As it was, they eventually decided to run the 8.02 fast but not before I'd boarded the 8.05 and left. The 8.02 then overtook the 8.05, even though it was running 20 minutes late. That's due to the 8.05 waiting for 8 minutes at West Byfleet each morning.

I could have waited for the 8.02 but you can be sure that as soon as you do that, they will simply decide to run the 8.02 stopping at every station, making you 20 minutes late.

Still these things don't happen every day and I still prefer commuting to work by train than driving.

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455driver

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The problem SWT has is that the service is very intense and it doesnt take much to cause chaos, once something goes wrong it snowballs very quickly.

They tried using service disruption sheets with alternatives listed on them depending on what had happened where, the only problem is that something happening at 10 oclock will require a different answer to the same incident happening at 11 oclock because different depots crews would be on different trains.

You will probably find that when things go wrong now, decisions are made on the hoof and staff dont know what is happening until it happens and then its all hands on deck to get the train moving before they move onto sorting out the next train etc etc.

Such is the joys of trying to run such a busy bit of railway.
 

infobleep

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Your quite right. Still annoying as a passenger the time but I know they are only doing their best so I don't blame them when they need to suddenly put in recovery mode.

I do sometimes wonder how they dealt with such issues back in the 1920s when we didn't have computers to help us. Are they much help in situations like this?

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DJL

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The problem SWT has is that the service is very intense and it doesnt take much to cause chaos, once something goes wrong it snowballs very quickly.

They tried using service disruption sheets with alternatives listed on them depending on what had happened where, the only problem is that something happening at 10 oclock will require a different answer to the same incident happening at 11 oclock because different depots crews would be on different trains.

You will probably find that when things go wrong now, decisions are made on the hoof and staff dont know what is happening until it happens and then its all hands on deck to get the train moving before they move onto sorting out the next train etc etc.

Such is the joys of trying to run such a busy bit of railway.

I've always thought it odd that there are no crossovers from fast to slow lines whatsoever between Wimbledon and Vauxhall (unless I've missed something) and only very limited crossovers the other way. Meaning as soon as something goes up the spout that blocks one small part of the fast line nothing can get through even for miles back.
(N.B. that "knowledge" comes from simsig so I apologise if I've got it wrong!)

I understand there is a move these days to remove unnecessary point work to reduce the places where things can go wrong however it seems daft to limit things quite that much...
 

swt_passenger

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The comparative lack of crossovers east of Wimbledon is likely to be intentional because the main lines have changed from being 'paired by direction' to 'paired by use'.
In other words west of Wimbledon weaving from fast to slow or vice versa is provided for at various places as it is needed for the normal timetable, but east of Wimbledon it would involve crossing trains going in the opposite direction, so is less useful.
 

DJL

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The comparative lack of crossovers east of Wimbledon is likely to be intentional because the main lines have changed from being 'paired by direction' to 'paired by use'.
In other words west of Wimbledon weaving from fast to slow or vice versa is provided for at various places as it is needed for the normal timetable, but east of Wimbledon it would involve crossing trains going in the opposite direction, so is less useful.

I appreciate that using such a crossover in normal usage would be very disruptive to the timetable however surely having it there for emergency use (and probably occasional early morning / late night for route knowledge purposes?) seems prudent.

By way of a comparison the SEML out of London Bridge has several such crossovers working in both directions between Lewisham and London Bridge although I understand most of these will be removed over the next few years in connection with the Thameslink work.

Admittedly that is a slightly unfair comparison as the 2 halves of the line have different destinations (I'm not sure where the designation officially switches from fast/slow to chx/cst, I suspect at the complicated set of crossovers near Lewisham?)
Also these crossovers do see usage even in peak times (or they did until the recent works at Tanners Hill)

This is beginning to sound like a rant, which is not my intention - more something that I see as being slightly odd.
 

Olaf

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I've always thought it odd that there are no crossovers from fast to slow lines whatsoever between Wimbledon and Vauxhall (unless I've missed something) and only very limited crossovers the other way. Meaning as soon as something goes up the spout that blocks one small part of the fast line nothing can get through even for miles back.
(N.B. that "knowledge" comes from simsig so I apologise if I've got it wrong!)

I understand there is a move these days to remove unnecessary point work to reduce the places where things can go wrong however it seems daft to limit things quite that much...

There was an option considered sometime ago (2007/2010?) to install turn-backs at Earlsfield along with a fourth platform to address this issue, but I think it was proven to not add value.

The signalling problems between The Junction and Waterloo have existed for years, and to the casual observer seem to be a daily problem. The signalling is due for renewal in the early 2020s so we will have to put up with it for a few more years. It may also be delayed further pending the out come of decisions of what to do with Waterloo in the context of the Crossrail2 proposals.
 

infobleep

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So are problems simply due to old technology still in use on one of Britain's busiest lines in terms of trains that run?

With the number of trains running, you'd think it would be consider an important project to undertake now.

There again perhaps places not connected with through routes is considered more worth while, such as crossrail 1. I can't disagree as we at least have trains that run to Waterloo and plenty of them.

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455driver

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There was an option considered sometime ago (2007/2010?) to install turn-backs at Earlsfield along with a fourth platform to address this issue, but I think it was proven to not add value.

The signalling problems between The Junction and Waterloo have existed for years, and to the casual observer seem to be a daily problem. The signalling is due for renewal in the early 2020s so we will have to put up with it for a few more years. It may also be delayed further pending the out come of decisions of what to do with Waterloo in the context of the Crossrail2 proposals.

Really! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So are problems simply due to old technology still in use on one of Britain's busiest lines in terms of trains that run?

With the number of trains running, you'd think it would be consider an important project to undertake now.

There again perhaps places not connected with through routes is considered more worth while, such as crossrail 1. I can't disagree as we at least have trains that run to Waterloo and plenty of them.

So what are you going to do with the train service while you renew everything?

Oh you cant run any passenger trains while it is all tested!
 

infobleep

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No your right you can't. However they will have to upgrade it sometime I would have thought even if that means some days of closure - most likely weekends. I don't actually know much about this so nay be it's so busy and used that they simply can't upgrade it.

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carriageline

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The signalling is due to be renewed 2020ish, with Wimbledon ASC closing 2020ish, but has been rumoured that it been put back a few years, along with Feltham ASC.

It doesn't use that "old" technology really, part of Wimbledon ASC (providing it was Wimbledon and not London Vic where the failure happened) uses SSI (solid state interlocking) which is pretty modern stuff.

does anyone know what the failure actually was? A set of points losing detection won't necessarily be stopped with new signalling systems, as point motors can fail, as well as items getting stuck in switch blades etc (although that is genuinely fixable quickly :p), or an IBJ failing and causing track circuit failures.

The newer systems can also bring their own, new problems too.


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infobleep

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However some of the points between Waterloo and Surbiton are custom made, taking 2 weeks to be delivered and installed. I thought that was due to them being an old design but may be I'm miss remembering.

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carriageline

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Possibly, but there are a few areas in the UK with unique point work like that, that requires the points to be made in Germany (for example) then shipped over here! Was it a points failure that caused the problems the other day?


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hassaanhc

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Possibly, but there are a few areas in the UK with unique point work like that, that requires the points to be made in Germany (for example) then shipped over here! Was it a points failure that caused the problems the other day?


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Points failure by Queenstown Road
 

carriageline

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Points failure by Queenstown Road


Thanks for that. So really, upgraded signalling won't necessarily stop things like that, points failure/TCFs/signal failures will generally happen, we hope with the 'new' software NR are using, that problems with points being slow to get detection etc are detected well before they fail!


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infobleep

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Interesting. Of course ad a passenger it's not possible to know it's a points failure as to make it simpler for most people who don't care, they just refer to signal failures.

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455driver

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Interesting. Of course ad a passenger it's not possible to know it's a points failure as to make it simpler for most people who don't care, they just refer to signal failures.

It is only a signal failure in that the signal cant be cleared. The reason the signal cant be cleared, IE the real defect, takes a bit more time to find.

Technically the signal hasnt failed because it has done exactly what it is designed to do, prevent a train getting to a bit of track which is defective.
 
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carriageline

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Normally, the signaller knows straight away why the signal won't clear, in this particular example the points in question would have no normal or reverse detection on the Individual Point Switch, or even flashing out of correspondence (the interlocking thinks they are in normal, on the ground they are reporting as reverse), and result in the signaller trying to set the points manually, and then getting the MOM/S&T out if they still won't play ball.

Of course, you get the odd failure where the signal just won't clear, but as far as we can see there is no reason for it to not be clearing!


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455driver

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maybe for the sake of clarity I should have put-

The reason the signal cant be cleared, IE the real defect, can sometimes take a bit more time to find.
 

DY444

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It doesn't use that "old" technology really, part of Wimbledon ASC (providing it was Wimbledon and not London Vic where the failure happened) uses SSI (solid state interlocking) which is pretty modern stuff.

Hmm. Off the top of my head Wimbledon ASC has 11 interlockings of which two are SSI. Neither of them involves the signalling between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.
 
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carriageline

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Thanks for that, for some reason my mind is telling me that panel 5(the newest panel) is SSI


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Olaf

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Really! :roll:

Yes; 'Signalling Problems in the Clapham/Waterloo ...' is usually the reason given for all delays; that and 'passenger struck by train'.

The problem seems to have become progressively worse in the years since the timetable change, however this year has so far not been as bad, in my opinion, as 2012 an 2013. I'm sure though that you will have a more informed view of the trend and of the various root causes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So are problems simply due to old technology still in use on one of Britain's busiest lines in terms of trains that run?

With the number of trains running, you'd think it would be consider an important project to undertake now.

There again perhaps places not connected with through routes is considered more worth while, such as crossrail 1. I can't disagree as we at least have trains that run to Waterloo and plenty of them.

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The level of usage that was unanticipated at the time the system was designed will also be a factor, not just the age of the S&C an the track, etc. The system is scheduled for renewal and the RUS & Route Plans have indicated for sometime that Waterloo needs to be sorted out before there can be a reasonable increase of capacity on the SWML.

There have been a number of options considered and tere are other projects that overlap with this; Waterloo International reconstruction options, re-development of Waterloo (1B GBP private investment postponed/cancelled due financial circumstances), Clapham Junction re-location, Windsor Lines switch, EuroStar fly-over demolition, Crossrail2 - the later is not authorized nor funded but would impact on the proposals for Waterloo. The total, if it all went ahead would come out at about £2B excluding Crossrail2 and additional rolling stock. That is not insignificant and requires a lot of planning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So what are you going to do with the train service while you renew everything?

Oh you cant run any passenger trains while it is all tested!

The renewal would be performed as elsewhere - progressive implementation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The signalling is due to be renewed 2020ish, with Wimbledon ASC closing 2020ish, but has been rumoured that it been put back a few years, along with Feltham ASC.

Feltham was put back (only a year or so), but only to bring forward work elsewhere for efficiency of implementation reasons. It is scheduled for 2017 (if I recall correctly).
 

Muzer

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Hmm. Off the top of my head Wimbledon ASC has 11 interlockings of which two are SSI. Neither of them involves the signalling between Clapham Junction and Waterloo.
What are the other ones, if not SSI? Software? Mechanical? Or is there a different type of interlocking I've forgotten about?
 

455driver

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I have highlighted the bit I was quoting and replying to, which you chose to ignore! :roll:
The signalling problems between The Junction and Waterloo have existed for years, and to the casual observer seem to be a daily problem.

I drive the route several times 'on a daily basis' and cannot recall when we have had incidents every day but what do I know, I just drive the red trains (and occasionally a blue or white one) in and out of Waterloo nearly every working day of my life! :roll:
 

carriageline

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What are the other ones, if not SSI? Software? Mechanical? Or is there a different type of interlocking I've forgotten about?


More than likely relay interlocking. I'm sure software is SSI?


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Muzer

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Ah, of course. Duh! How could I forget about relays?

Oh, really? I would have thought SSI would be transistors/ICs/other electronics as opposed to software, which would be something running on general-purpose computing hardware (is there any such interlocking currently?).
 

Olaf

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I have highlighted the bit I was quoting and replying to, which you chose to ignore! :roll:


I drive the route several times 'on a daily basis' and cannot recall when we have had incidents every day but what do I know, I just drive the red trains (and occasionally a blue or white one) in and out of Waterloo nearly every working day of my life! :roll:

I do not doubt your point of view, however you get a different view when you are a regular commuter; if you don't encounter problems in the moring, something is likely to happen in the evening.
 
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