Re-openening Colne to Skipton, 'Financially Viable'

[BantamMenace]

Would the Skipton to Colne alignment (if double tracked and electrified) from the beginning be suitable for 90mph running like the Airedale line which leads to it from Leeds and Bradford?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the Skipton to Colne alignment (if double tracked and electrified) from the beginning be suitable for 90mph running like the Airedale line which leads to it from Leeds and Bradford?

What do you propose for the line from Colne onwards that would have to see the continuation of these 90mph services ?

 

[BantamMenace]

What do you propose for the line from Colne onwards that would have to see the continuation of these 90mph services ?

If I were given that huge fantasy lot of money that we all crave I'd build to Colne double track and electrify from the start. Double Colne to burnley and electrify. Create a bay at burnley. Electrify Skipton to hellifield and extend the Airedale Bradford services to hellifield and the Airedale Leeds services to burnley.

Could even tie this project in with platform extensions to allow 5 car running as I've previously said in this post. A new fleet of 5-car emus then allow the 333s to head west to the newly electrified lines in Lancashire or they can stay at Neville hill and we bring forward electrification between Leeds and York both via garforth and Harrogate then they operate these locals and a Leeds to Selby or hull local.

 

[L&Y Robert]

If I were given that huge fantasy lot of money that we all crave I'd build to Colne double track and electrify from the start. Double Colne to Burnley and electrify. Create a bay at Burnley.

It'd have to be a bay at Rose Grove, wouldn't it? Could then also be used as a turn-back for reversing to Tod. and on to Manchester (Calling at all four Burnley stations, you'll note. All five if Towneley were re-opened!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

All five if Towneley were re-opened

Seeing that we are currently residing in the land of the fantasists on the thread, you could go the whole hog and after Townley, you could then reopen Holme, Portsmouth (W.Yorks), Cornholme and Stansfield Hall.

 

[BantamMenace]

It'd have to be a bay at Rose Grove, wouldn't it? Could then also be used as a turn-back for reversing to Tod. and on to Manchester (Calling at all four Burnley stations, you'll note. All five if Towneley were re-opened!)

Great point, i hadnt looked at the map before i made my previous comment and after doing so Rose Grove makes perfect sense.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well this really has ran off into fantasy land now.

 

[455driver]

I dont know why they are on about reinstating the track, surely they could just insert some magnets into the former trackbed and use maglevs!

I will be looking at their figures with great expectations because if they can come up with a BCR of 6:1 on this then they are the ones to look into all other re-openings!

The railways will soon be back to their pre 1958 levels!

 

[Bald Rick]

Well this really has ran off into fantasy land now.

It started on post #1!

 

[YorkshireBear]

It started on post #1!

WWhhhhhheeeeyyyy. True story though.

 

[Bald Rick]

In all seriousness, this does sound like make or break. If the assumptions used to build the stated case stand up to scrutiny, then there is a good chance of it going forward (and me losing my bet).

However if the assumptions do not stand up to scrutiny, then the campaign will, I'm afraid, lose credibility.

Let's see tomorrow.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

However if the assumptions do not stand up to scrutiny, then the campaign will, I'm afraid, lose credibility. Let's see tomorrow.

We shall await the outcome of the meeting and see how many expectations on this thread will still be unfulfilled....or not, as may be the case.

 

[Lankyline]

SELRAP had also envisaged the line to be used for freight traffic, though where from god only knows ! can anyone see what freight traffic this could carry economically, if any ?

This is at best a provincial route that will probably be sunk by any potential road upgrading. There's more chance of restoring the Preston - Southport line, (for anyone who doesn't know it it was closed in '63 and large sections of it have disappeared under housing etc, if viable today would have made more sense than this)

 

[s&crailproject]

Would the Skipton to Colne alignment (if double tracked and electrified) from the beginning be suitable for 90mph running like the Airedale line which leads to it from Leeds and Bradford?

If you look at the history of the line, then yes it would, this line was built as a main line between Liverpool, and Hull, and from reading current news, business, and Council officials within the Hull region want a fast link back to Liverpool, our line has the lowest gradient over the pennines, and no steep embankments, or tunnels, and from early talks with rail freight companies, and engineers, this route would be the most cost effective to operate.

further details of the Grip 2/3 study will be made public as soon as Lancashire CC, and North Yorkshire CC have had their input placed in to the Document, one of the options being looked at is and extetion of the wires from Skipton North Junction to Rose Grove in Burnley, so that this would provide a fast link to Leeds, Bradford from East Lancashire, and give a fast connection to Manchester via Todmorden.

The above is just one option, which wouldn't give to many issues with the existing Skipton to Leeds service.

Freight, SELRAP back in 2007 was approched by a large multi national, about developing freight along this line, with the need for a number of inland ports, it is seen within the industry as the most important link over the Pennines due to its low gradient, and one in which wouldn't have any issues with train paths, getting from the Port of Liverpool, which is being expanded to cater for upto 70% of UK freight.

Items placed on the table during a number of key meetings, were, imbedded rail, New and cheaper electrification methods, as in T sections going down the center of Double track, and the building of two inland ports, one at Burnley/Earby, the other at Keighley, land available, both Burnley, and Keighley have good road links, to the major centers.

SELRAP will not know further details with regards to the Engineering until a full Grip 3 study is compleeted, which could take between 6, and 12 months, only then will we know the true cost of the project, but at this stage single line with passing loops, in a number of places looks like the best option, which would still give you trains every 30 min.

 

[Bald Rick]

£180m-£250m plus stations plus optimism bias is my guess.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm surprised by the suggestion that there'd be no problems with freight paths, given that things must already be pretty tight south of Skipton, combined with the need for everything to cross the whole (busy!) layout on the approach to Leeds and deal with the constraints that'd be imposed by a single line from Burnley to Skipton!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Modern trains mean the argument of lowest gradients therefore fastest route is completely irrelevant.

 

[Tomnick]

Modern trains mean the argument of lowest gradients therefore fastest route is completely irrelevant.

Not a problem at all with passengers, but I'll concede that steeply graded lines do cause a few restrictions for the freight operation!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Modern trains mean the argument of lowest gradients therefore fastest route is completely irrelevant.

It is energy efficient though

 

[YorkshireBear]

It is energy efficient though

I would say the savings are very much lower once electrification has taken place.... But yes point taken, but extend the journey times and everyone will go by Car which is even less energy efficient
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not a problem at all with passengers, but I'll concede that steeply graded lines do cause a few restrictions for the freight operation!

Aye you are correct, and for me that is the only way this line will become a success. The main issue currently is a lack of demand for Transpennine Railfreight as we have not yet reached the stage where that distance is economical for Railfreight. (ie the growing Intermodal Market)

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed: a basic single line railway with only sufficient crossing loops to (reliably?) support an hourly or half-hourly service isn't really compatible with any substantial amount of through freight traffic. On the other hand, providing the additional infrastructure to allow extra paths for freight to be found will push up the cost considerably - with no promise that the freight traffic will materialise.

 

[The Planner]

Especially when you are looking at 800m+ loops as the freight boys will insist on 775m capable loops....

 

[spongsdad]

I'm sure contributors to this forum (or at least some of them), will remember that the precursor of the Witch Way service to Manchester, the old X43 used to run as far as Skipton. Nowadays, it doesn't even make it to Colne. Nostalgia inclines me to favour a re-opening of the Colne to Skipton Line. Reality tells me that with an hourly service from Burnley to Leeds and York scheduled to Leeds in 70 minutes, the alternative just isn't going to happen. My question is: if you were prioritising restoration of rail services in the North West , where would the reinstatement of Colne-Skipton come?

 

[edwin_m]

Any freight taking this route has got to find its way through Leeds - either passing the station itself or closely approaching it and then crossing most of the throat to head towards the Stourton line. Whereas freight on the Copy Pit route can avoid Leeds entirely by using the relatively quiet route through Wakefield Kirkgate.

 

[tbtc]

My question is: if you were prioritising restoration of rail services in the North West , where would the reinstatement of Colne-Skipton come?

A good question.

There are a lot of lines that could do with being electrified (Warrington Central, Southport via Atherton, Calder Valley through Rochdale, the shortish sections towards Marple...) that aren't on the CP5 list...

...there are a few single track lines that could do with being (re) doubled (Blackpool South, Bolton to Blackburn)...

...there are other bottle necks (Stockport Viaduct)...

...there are potential extensions of Merseyrail (Kirby to Wigan, Bidston to Wrexham, Skelmersdale)...

...there are bits of infrastructure that are very lightly used (Halton Curve)...

...there are chords that could be built (Preston to Southport)...

...there are places that could have a direct service that currently lack one due to the number of paths available (since everywhere has to have a direct link to Manchester Airport every hour )...

...there are some places that get a poor service relative to their size (Morecambe)...

...there are many lines needing longer platforms or more loops to allow freight to be better accomodated...

...SELRAP is very low on that list, as far as I am concerned.

Modern trains mean the argument of lowest gradients therefore fastest route is completely irrelevant.

Agreed

I'm surprised by the suggestion that there'd be no problems with freight paths, given that things must already be pretty tight south of Skipton, combined with the need for everything to cross the whole (busy!) layout on the approach to Leeds and deal with the constraints that'd be imposed by a single line from Burnley to Skipton!

Agreed

If you look at the history of the line, then yes it would, this line was built as a main line between Liverpool, and Hull

What a line was built as and what a line is fit for in the 21st centuary are two very different things.

You'd never go from Liverpool to Hill via Skipton nowadays, for example.

from reading current news, business, and Council officials within the Hull region want a fast link back to Liverpool

But why would a long diversion north to Skipton be faster than a service through Huddersfield?

And if you ask people in Hull whether they want a fast link to Liverpool then of course they will say yes, just as they'll want a fast line to Manchester Airport and a fast link to anywhere else (Hull to Birmingham? Hull to Newcastle?).

our line has the lowest gradient over the pennines

Not that relevant in a world of EMUs though (which the Huddersfield route will be)

one of the options being looked at is and extetion of the wires from Skipton North Junction to Rose Grove in Burnley, so that this would provide a fast link to Leeds, Bradford from East Lancashire

A fast link to Leeds, Bradford from East Lancashire? The hourly service from Leeds to Burnley is ~1h05. Leeds to Skipton is ~40 minutes (with no spare capacity on the line for additional faster services).

So to provide a "faster" service from Leeds to Burnley you'd be looking at an *average* speed of at least 60mph for the ~20 miles from Skipton to Burnley so that you could get there from Leeds in under an hour to beat the current journey time? Presumably that doesn't include any stops at intermediate places?

But, as The Planner has pointed out, the speeds on the Copy Pit line are being improved, which may mean you can do the Leeds - Burnley trip in under an hour via Hebden Bridge.

(and Bradford to Burnley is even faster via Hebden Bridge - its already ~45 minutes - so I don't know how Bradford - Skipton - Burnley is going to be able to compete)

The above is just one option

I was assuming that there was only one option being suggested - the one with this amazing benefit ratio of "6.5 times the total costs" - am looking forward to finding out which one it is.

Well this really has ran off into fantasy land now

It started on post #1!

 

[Lankyline]

As tbtc quite rightly puts it there are planty of other more viable projects that this, plus they already have most if not all the existing infrastructure in place.

I think the main reason for this being newsworthy is not the CBR figure but the fact that SELRAP is more "pr savy" than a lot of the other rail pressure groups, eg when was the last time anyone saw anything from OPSTRA (i think its that) the group for Preston Ormskirk Southport line inc Burscough curves reinstatement ?

I still believe its merely a "talking shop" that enables MP's etc to look good with the public and that Copy Pit upgrade and future road upgrading will kill off this idea once and for all

 

[Hebden Bridger]

...there are places that could have a direct service that currently lack one due to the number of paths available (since everywhere has to have a direct link to Manchester Airport every hour )...

Don't exaggerate - only principal routes into Manchester.

But, as The Planner has pointed out, the speeds on the Copy Pit line are being improved, which may mean you can do the Leeds - Burnley trip in under an hour via Hebden Bridge.

(and Bradford to Burnley is even faster via Hebden Bridge - its already ~45 minutes - so I don't know how Bradford - Skipton - Burnley is going to be able to compete)

Not to mention the Calder Valley Victoria to Bradford Northern Hub line speed improvements planned for 2016.

 

[BantamMenace]

Any freight taking this route has got to find its way through Leeds - either passing the station itself or closely approaching it and then crossing most of the throat to head towards the Stourton line. Whereas freight on the Copy Pit route can avoid Leeds entirely by using the relatively quiet route through Wakefield Kirkgate.

Bradford crossrail anyone?

 

[Darren R]

Where is all this freight for the Skipton to Colne line going to materialize from? There is already an east-west route via Copy Pit: a route operationally much to be preferred since Leeds can be avoided. Freight from Burnley (and points west thereof) can already get to Hull, but there are no such traffic flows. Copy Pit carries only a handful of freight trains. So basically the extra freight carried would be from Nelson and Colne to Skipton, Keighley and Bingley. I don't believe that is a huge potential market waiting to be tapped into.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where is all this freight for the Skipton to Colne line going to materialize from?

More to the point, WHAT is this freight ?