Daily Mail: train cancelled whilst guard is in sainsburys...

[petersi]

i'm not privatizations biggest fan but i don't buy that these rules wouldn't have existed if BR was still in existance, i doubt they would even have spair staff these days either

They almost certainly wood
Air crews have controlled hours
Lorry drivers have controlled hours
No reason to think train safety critical staff would be different


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[A-driver]

LateThanNever, I hope the message is getting through to you...

I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure he is a troll and not serious in his argument. I thought he may be trying to argue a serious point at the start but this has got silly now and I'm fairly sure no one would be daft enough to continuously argue like this when it's being pointed out by every single other poster that they are wrong and don't know what they are going on about.

I suspect it may be someone who's had a bit to drink and is just on the wind up...

 

[A-driver]

When people trot that line out it is most likely that they have lost the argument, because this point has everything to do with nothing, and nothing to do with everything.

To be fair, as a tax payer and someone who purchases train tickets they do contribute to my wages and I accept that.

But as I tax payer myself I contribute to hundreds of thousands of other peoples wages but I don't have any right to tell them how they should be doing there jobs when I clearly don't understand their jobs! My taxes fund NHS brain surgeons but I wouldn't go onto a medical forum and tell them that as a possibly patient and a tax payer I believe that they should actually be performing brain operations to my specifications...

 

[RichmondCommu]

Go away. Simply stop posting here and go away. I'm really sorry to be so harsh but when every other poster is against you and telling you that you are wrong and don't have a clue what you are on about you need to stop posting

I'm not sure if you are deliberately trolling, are being silly or just rather thick but please stop it. Yet again this is another INCORRECT POST!

I'm sorry but that is not fair. You are not a Moderator. Even if you don't agree with his posts (and neither do I) you need to remember that this a forum and nothing more. What you have typed is plain wrong.

 

[bb21]

To be fair, as a tax payer and someone who purchases train tickets they do contribute to my wages and I accept that.

Yes, but that's where it stops.

There is no causal relationship with anything, so when used in an argument, it means nothing. This can only mean one thing, ie. whoever spoke it has no better argument.

 

[Greenback]

Please calm down everyone. Move along now, there's nothing to see here

Sometimes a few little arguments develop, please report posts you have a problem with rather than replying in the thread and adding fuel to the flames.

If things don't return to normal levels of discussion the thread will be closed for today. This message is not aimed at any particular individuals.

Thank you.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm a little worried by this:

. . . . That's what I'm getting at. Is there any flexibility in the railway requirements? And if not, why not?

Of course not. And it's not just on the railways, it's how we assess risk.
What we have learnt over decades of accidents, is not just the circumstances which prevail when accidents happen (and that is very useful knowledge in reducing the exposure to risk in future), but also the circumstances in which people's faculties in assessing risks becomes diminished.

As a result of that learning, we have introduced rules and regulations which aim to reduce the incidence of accidents by prohibiting the causal factors identified by that canon of evidence; that includes restrictions on the circumstances which are seen to have an adverse effect on a person's faculties in assessing risk. And that includes prohibition on a person in a safety critical role making a self-assessment of their abilities once they have crossed the theshold of the number of hours of continuous work which is deemed to be safe.

Or in simple terms, no, you don't ask someone who has already crossed the line into a danger zone to self-assess their own ability to be safe. That wouldn't be 'flexibility', it would be dangerous. That is comparable to asking a drunk if they feel able to take control of a hazardous system. It worries me that you appear not to understand how safety is achieved.

 

[Tomnick]

The clarification is just that road drivers have been found to be more likely to have accidents in the first few minutes of driving and there have be no deaths on the railway - delighted to say - for I think the last 3 years, so, as when the railway goes wrong we go on the roads think it is incumbent on the railway to buck up!

It was the link between breaks and a 'good service' that I was seeking clarification on, as it seemed that you were suggesting that safety-critical staff should always sacrifice their breaks if passengers would otherwise be inconvenienced.

 

[A-driver]

I'm sorry but that is not fair. You are not a Moderator. Even if you don't agree with his posts (and neither do I) you need to remember that this a forum and nothing more. What you have typed is plain wrong.

I fully accept it is harsh (and apologiesed for it) but what he is doing is not fair. He has posted time and time again on this thread info which is wrong and continues to do so. I think it was fair to post that and I meant no offence by it but look at it from my and my colleagues point of view...he is attacking our prodpfessions and working practices and refuses to accept that he may be wrong and dosnt understand what he is posting. I have answered his posts as civilly as possible but when he continued to post like that I think it was fair to be blunt.

I apologies for any offence I have caused to anyone with that or similar posts but he seems to be just out to wind us up. Again, that post I was referring to contained INCORRECT INFORMATION DRESSED UP AS FACTS to try and prove his non existent point.

 

[richw]

The clarification is just that road drivers have been found to be more likely to have accidents in the first few minutes of driving and there have be no deaths on the railway - delighted to say - for I think the last 3 years, so, as when the railway goes wrong we go on the roads think it is incumbent on the railway to buck up!

According to ROSPA a quarter of fatal accidents have fatigue as a contributory factor, and 20% of all accidents have fatigue contributing to the cause. That is a high figure preventable by appropriate sleep and rest breaks.

 

[bicbasher]

All the Daily Mail did with this report is portray a negative stereotype about railway workers in the same way it bashes immigrants and benefit claimants which their middle England readership appear to get wound up about.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

All the Daily Mail did with this report is portray a negative stereotype about railway workers in the same way it bashes immigrants and benefit claimants which their middle England readership appear to get wound up about.

There was a joke in the Independent the other week.

A banker,a Daily Mail reader and an unemployed man are sitting around a table.On the table is a plate with ten biscuits on it.The banker takes nine of the biscuits and says to the Daily Mail reader "Watch out for that scrounger,he's after your biscuit.

 

[SPADTrap]

There was a joke in the Independent the other week.

A banker,a Daily Mail reader and an unemployed man are sitting around a table.On the table is a plate with ten biscuits on it.The banker takes nine of the biscuits and says to the Daily Mail reader "Watch out for that scrounger,he's after your biscuit.

And the daily mail reader writes to their MP....


Alright I'll leave it.

 

[swj99]

I would have thought the responsibility here rests with the TOC, in that it is up to that TOC to properly organize their timetables and schedules so that staff are able to take adeqate / required breaks without this having a detrimental effect on the service, taking on more staff to achieve this if necessary.

One good thing to come out of this will be the lesson learned by anyone reading so called news articles, once they realize that events may not be quite as reported. In other words, people might just learn to think for themselves, and hopefully they will also learn not to believe everything they read, just because it's printed in a newspaper.

I only ever buy newspapers if they're for someone else, and I only use them myself if I am spraying a car.

 

[Beveridges]

Things like this are entirely the companies fault for making diagrams too tight. There should always be plenty of slack between a guard/driver arrivng on one train and departing on another to cover most eventualities. It should be far more than a minumim PNB.

TOCs should also ensure there is plenty of spare train crew just in case.

There really is no excuse for this sort of thing.

 

[transmanche]

One good thing to come out of this will be the lesson learned by anyone reading so called news articles, once they realize that events may not be quite as reported. In other words, people might just learn to think for themselves

Hopefully yes.

I think it's fairly easy to spot this kind of "somebody's angry about something and has phoned up the newsdesk" kind of story, as they're used to fill up space or simply to reinforce the newspaper's (political) stance. Often you find the real information right at the end of the article... just as in this example. Rarely does it support the 'outrage' of the headline.

 

[A-driver]

Things like this are entirely the companies fault for making diagrams too tight. There should always be plenty of slack between a guard/driver arrivng on one train and departing on another to cover most eventualities. It should be far more than a minumim PNB.

There really is no excuse for this sort of thing.

Absolutely. Our current diagrams regularly see almost 5 hours in the cab with most having either 1 bare minimum 30min break with as little as 3 mins padding and many also having 2 minimum 20 min breaks. It is quite common with even minor delays (sitting at Woolmer green awaiting a few mins late east coast to overtake you) to cause drivers to have to terminate trains early at berthing points to avoid fouling the 5hours or delay later trains whilst they claim a break.

I don't like saying 'told you so' but at diagram meetings our reps did warn the company that exactly this would happen!

 

[A-driver]

Hopefully yes.



I think it's fairly easy to spot this kind of "somebody's angry about something and has phoned up the newsdesk" kind of story, as they're used to fill up space or simply to reinforce the newspaper's (political) stance. Often you find the real information right at the end of the article... just as in this example. Rarely does it support the 'outrage' of the headline.

It's very similar to the 'pregnant woman sits on floor' standard article and related thread on here the other week. Rather missed the point and tried to place the blame on the wrong party.

 

[jon0844]

Things like this are entirely the companies fault for making diagrams too tight. There should always be plenty of slack between a guard/driver arrivng on one train and departing on another to cover most eventualities. It should be far more than a minumim PNB.

TOCs should also ensure there is plenty of spare train crew just in case.

There really is no excuse for this sort of thing.

There is an excuse; cost.

Ask people if it's a good idea to add in more slack, and you'll probably get near 100% support.

Then ask them if they'd pay a small increase on their fare and that number will suddenly drop.

People are always keen to see more money spent, until being told where the money is going to come from.

 

[A-driver]

There is an excuse; cost.



Ask people if it's a good idea to add in more slack, and you'll probably get near 100% support.



Then ask them if they'd pay a small increase on their fare and that number will suddenly drop.



People are always keen to see more money spent, until being told where the money is going to come from.

Exactly. And from the TOCs point of view they can make the diagrams more productive and save staff costs. Diagramming dosnt cater for disruption, it's done based on smooth running. This is perfect for TOCs as most delays are down to network rail. So if a signal problem delays a driver who spoils his break and so delays his next working then, as the diagram is legal and works on a 'perfect' railway network rail will pay all the costs for the delay as they caused the drivers break to be spoilt. I know it makes no difference to the delayed passengers but from a business POV it is ideal for the toc.

 

[swj99]

............Often you find the real information right at the end of the article... just as in this example. Rarely does it support the 'outrage' of the headline.

Exactly. What I've been noticing more and more lately is sensationalist headlines which bear little relation to the actual story. Rather like an advert which has misleading words in the title, intended soley to get people to read the rest of the advert. I don't understand the motivation behind it really, because the second I realize they've done it, I mentally switch off and often don't bother to read the rest of the article, advert or whatever it is. I can't be the only one who reacts like this to the bull$hit.

Actually, there must be a special course for journalists to go on, after they've had half their brain removed, just so they can practice thinking up the most ridiculous and outrageous headlines. I remember the day after that electrician was executed in Stockwell, one tabloid had a headline which said, "Shoot all terrorists !" Even though he wasn't one.

 

[Monty]

So I stumble into this thread and after reading it my head hurts.. I think I'll leave my contribution to the discussion at that.


Other than to say, obvious troll is obvious.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Did the train plummet with all the passengers screaming and just miss a school or orphans, while at the same time a group of nurses (who were on duty) cavorting with an airline captain?

t.

Ian

 

[Flamingo]

So I stumble into this thread and after reading it my head hurts.. I think I'll leave my contribution to the discussion at that.


Other than to say, obvious troll is obvious.

+1. Some total bollix trolled by latethsnnever.

 

[WearEtraveler]

For those not familiar with the Hastings line the trains are not currently running all the way to Hastings from London due to landslips and as such there is a replacement bus between Robertsbridge and Battle, Logic would dictate that one crew could run the train from Robertsbridge to London and a second crew to run the Shuttle from Battle to Hastings, why are the management changing crew at Tonbridge in the first place? logistically that just creates problems? the turnaround time in between Terminal stops would be sufficient for a break, the crews used to do this from Hastings to London before some bright spark decided to change it. Now you have to have your ticket checked twice by both guards on the two legs either side of Tonbridge a bit annoying if you want to catch up on some sleep due to the extra traveling time and frequent cancellation.
And have I mentioned the cutting down of all embankment trees to prevent leaves on the line seems to have contributed to all the landslips this information came from a Civil Engineer who works on the Railway currently.
Free free to correct me as this is lowly passenger's view.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm amazed that such a small matter has been blown out of all proportions by the Daily Wail. A train being cancelled & passengers having to wait an hour for the next is hardly Earth shattering news. If I were on the station & the driver / guard told us that he / she couldn't operate the next services because they were overdue a break, I would simply accept the fact & head off to find the nearest pub for a pint & wait for the next service.

I would much rather the train crew be suitably refreshed for their next stint that risk them being overtired & potentially making mistakes. But it does show just how precious some folk are! I'm surprised that someone on the comments section of this article hasn't commented that driving a train is easy, needing just the push of a lever to operate (these comments usually come from people incapable of operating a small flashing light by means of a plastic lever in their cars )

 

[Monty]

why are the management changing crew at Tonbridge in the first place

Crew changes happen at Tonbridge because there's a train crew depot there.

 

[sd0733]

The posts comparing putting off breaks with other professions are all rather meaningless in reality even without bringing rules into the equation. A lorry driver can pull into a lay-by/services every few miles, a shop worker can wait 5/10 mins whilst finishing dealing with a customer, telesales can wait a couple of minutes whilst finishing a call. Train crew haven't got this option, at the depot I work our non-stop work ranges from 2hours to around 4 and a half therefore If we were to put off a break we would then have to work at least a further 2 hours, with nowhere to get food and so not only would I be breaking the law but also the practicalities that you'd probably be extremely hungry, therefore (possibly rushing things to get to the end and get some food) and needing the toilet and again possibly rushing. The only realistic comparisions which are similar are shipping and airline pilots as again they obviously can't just stop anywhere. Ideally there would be more slack in a diagram and more spares but I'm pretty certain the mail would find plenty of headlines next time fares went up and it was to pay for 'lazy rail staff to have a 2 hour break every 3 hours' or '30% of rail staff paid to watch daytime tv all day' or something.

 

[306024]

Exactly. And from the TOCs point of view they can make the diagrams more productive and save staff costs. Diagramming dosnt cater for disruption, it's done based on smooth running. This is perfect for TOCs as most delays are down to network rail. So if a signal problem delays a driver who spoils his break and so delays his next working then, as the diagram is legal and works on a 'perfect' railway network rail will pay all the costs for the delay as they caused the drivers break to be spoilt. I know it makes no difference to the delayed passengers but from a business POV it is ideal for the toc.

Diagramming cannot cater for significant disruption, but it should cater for minor delays. These computer produced diagrams are mathematically efficient, but need to pass a common sense test as well. Unfortunately some directors see the cost savings and look no further. A good diagrammer will build a bit of slack where possible, but I fear people are putting more faith in the computer and diagrammers skills are being eroded.

 

[jon0844]

Actually, there must be a special course for journalists to go on, after they've had half their brain removed, just so they can practice thinking up the most ridiculous and outrageous headlines. I remember the day after that electrician was executed in Stockwell, one tabloid had a headline which said, "Shoot all terrorists !" Even though he wasn't one.

Most journalists don't like this and more than you or I do. Most sub editors won't agree with sensationalist headlines or misleading pull quotes, or jazzing up the copy in places (bet you'll find that in many cases, the story has changed loads from what was originally written).

But it's now part of the job. It's to get clicks, which boosts ad revenue. And the strictly separate lines of editorial vs advertising have become crossed as journalists are expected to be thinking about monetisation. Have no doubt, it's only going to get worse as advertisers are already seeking to pay less for regular online ads in favour of FB pages, Twitter etc.

This is why I wish people would stop saying they won't pay for news and expect it for free. Soon all our news will be in the form of BuzzFeed top 10s, clicking for new ads to read each number in turn. Text mostly ripped off and photos lifted from goodness knows where. Only this week Getty has made loads of pictures free, so now photographers also stand to lose out too.