Weather related disruption - Christmas 2013 and New Year 2014

[DaveNewcastle]

following on from my earlier posts on this - all the causes of disruption appear to have been in the south of England.

I made my journey to Edinburgh and back today, checking and discussing the times of services in general with the staff I met. Both of my East Coast trains were on time, the trains that the sets formed or were formed from were on time, none of the crew had been displaced from their schedules, the passenger information leader at Edinburgh Waverley had only notable delays from incoming Cross Country and Virgin services. Oh, and one other thing - passenger numbers were 20% to 30% of usual (avg 14 passengers per coach in standard on my journeys, and 4 per coach in first). All East Coast crews got home on time.

This non-impact in the north is notwithstanding the extraordinarily powerful winds which caused many difficulties, and the attention of NR teams working in those gale conditions to keep the lines open.

. . . .
This morning was a bigger pain than yesterday was and I didnt think that was possible.

I would just like to wish all the forum staff, railstaff, rail enthusiasts (okay and the whingeing gits as well ) a merry christmas and a prosperous new year.

I echo that. This is a well deserved break, if ever there was one.

 

[PHILIPE]

Put on where? Reading to Gatwick line had some fairly quickly. They found some for Haywards Heath to Three Bridges. So there were some to be fair.

South West Train twitter feed did say at one point the problem was too widespread to put on rail replacement buses. However since then they did manage to put some on. Just the way it goes.

You can't always source buses at the drop of a hat. They, like trains, have to be available together with drivers. On some routes that were closed, the roads were flooded as well and buses similar to trains, are not amphibian.

 

[island]

The wind seems to have really picked up here in East London in the past 30 minutes or so, certainly much worse than it was earlier in the evening!

I was flying into London City Airport yesterday; our plane landed while many others diverted to Southend, which was inopportune with no trains to Liverpool Street. It was one of the less comfortable approaches and landings I have experienced, but the flight crew did an excellent job. Some other passengers were seeking to travel onwards to Stansted and I understand they made their flights before Greater Anglia services went completely messed-up.

Thinking ahead to the 27th, by which I doubt it'll be clear, when they say 'ticket restrictions' are lifted does that mean you can use one of the XC shuttles with an FGW Advance?

I very much expect all tickets will be accepted by even the most vaguely reasonable of routes given the level of disruption.

 

[wensley]

I know yesterday was a real struggle for many people travelling to Christmas, having spent my day at Kings Cross (where I'm not normally located!) I seemed to spend an awful lot of time saying sorry - it was great to have some passengers who were quick with a joke and the vast majority were understanding of the situation and appreciated we wanted to get the home as quick as possible.

A good team effort I'd say and after another challenging morning today as a result of the tail end of the storm it was good to get services running normally for Christmas Eve evening

Have a good Christmas folks!!

 

[crewmeal]

So is that it now? All trains put to bed for 2 days? Happy Christmas one and all!

 

[MadCommuter]

So is that it now? All trains put to bed for 2 days? Happy Christmas one and all!

Pretty sure ScotRail are running a limited service on Boxing Day.

Hats off to everyone that went out and got lines clear, trains running and to the public facing staff who are at the thick end.

 

[fairysdad]

I think the real question is whether this service is going to be able to run properly or not... *hides*

 

[island]

So is that it now? All trains put to bed for 2 days? Happy Christmas one and all!

Pretty sure ScotRail are running a limited service on Boxing Day.

Hats off to everyone that went out and got lines clear, trains running and to the public facing staff who are at the thick end.

Southeastern was going to be operating High Speed services on Thursday too I think.

 

[jon0844]

I think it will!

 

[sonic2009]

Chiltern Railways are operating between Marylebone & Bicester North on Boxing Day.

 

[ushawk]

Looks like the IOW Island Line will be closed until further notice - unless they have inherited some submarines.......

 

[Chrisgr31]

If you have watched the news you will see that roads are also blocked and flooded, it is also almost impossible to get replacement buses to cover so many issues in so many areas.

Indeed. I was talking to a bus driver earlier who works out of Crawley but driving routes round Redhill, his journey into work this morning took an additional 2 hours due to the number of diversions he had to take to get round trees etc. Once at work he just sat in the crew room all his shift because they couldn't get the buses out to Redhill due to road closures.

They also had a bus set off from Crawley to Brighton. After 2 hours it had got 2 miles!

 

[Crossover]

Looks like the IOW Island Line will be closed until further notice - unless they have inherited some submarines.......

NRES are saying no services until at least Sunday

 

[infobleep]

Correct, the last up HST from Penzance on Monday night, the 1739 Penzance-Paddington, arrived at Paddington at 0552, a total of 6 hours, 8 minutes late. It left 39 minutes late from Penzance due to late arrival of the inbound service from Paddington; it stood at Plymouth for over half an hour presumably awaiting train crew. Finally, it was held at Bath for over an hour due to flooding at Wootton Bassett Jn restricting traffic to only the up line between Swindon and Thingley Jn, with a 5mph emergency speed restriction through the affected area around Wootton Bassett Jn itself - it had to wait for the last down HST, the 2330 from Paddington (which terminated short at Bristol TM) to clear the up line.

Believe it or not that wasn't the last HST to arrive: the 2028 Swansea-Paddington left three hours late at 2328 and arrived in Paddington at 0724, nearly eight hours late! Upon arrival at Bristol Parkway, the train was sent down Filton Bank to avoid the flooding at Badminton, but was then held at Dr Days Jn pending events at Bath; eventually it was diverted into Bristol Temple Meads where it stood for 20 minutes, departing around 0230 once the down train had cleared Thingley Jn. Somehow it took a further three and a half hours to get to Swindon, though I'm not sure how...

The down sleeper was first delayed because the crew work up from Exeter on the 1955 Exeter-Paddington, which arrived over two hours late. Then the flooding at Hele and Bradninch was discovered about 01:15, and the train eventually cancelled. The up sleeper, which itself departed Penzance nearly three hours late due to the crew being delayed, terminated at Exeter and the stock went back to Penzance in the path of the down sleeper.

What did the passengers do? Would the train company have to do anything for them, given the weather was really bad?

I see someone missed their last train tonight from Reading because the train into Reading was late.

I did enjoy reading the following Tweet from National Rail:

National Rail ‏@nationalrailenq 55m
Trains are no longer being affected by the disruption caused by the the strong winds and heavy rain on Monday 23 December.

Perhaps that might be due to the lack of trains running. Of course the definition of no longer depends on whether you include any future running on other days. Apparently Haslemere to Petersfield will be out on Friday due to embankment problems and that's without the predicted weather due then.

Are there any Web Sites with photos of track debris. Any photos of trampolines on tracks?

 

[Zoe]

Correct, the last up HST from Penzance on Monday night, the 1739 Penzance-Paddington, arrived at Paddington at 0552, a total of 6 hours, 8 minutes late. It left 39 minutes late from Penzance due to late arrival of the inbound service from Paddington; it stood at Plymouth for over half an hour presumably awaiting train crew. Finally, it was held at Bath for over an hour due to flooding at Wootton Bassett Jn restricting traffic to only the up line between Swindon and Thingley Jn, with a 5mph emergency speed restriction through the affected area around Wootton Bassett Jn itself - it had to wait for the last down HST, the 2330 from Paddington (which terminated short at Bristol TM) to clear the up line.

Looking at the log of TD berth steps, it also took over 50 minutes to get from Totnes to Newton Abbot and approaching Didcot it took over 15 minutes to get from signal 976 to Didcot Parkway. The train was at its latest at Didcot, it recovered a few minutes before finally arriving at Paddington.

 

[IrishDave]

What did the passengers do? Would the train company have to do anything for them, given the weather was really bad?

As I understand it the station staff at Paddington and Reading were trying to find hotels for the down sleeper passengers at about 2am - the passengers at Paddington had been allowed to board the train, but once it was decided that the train wouldn't run they were decamped - but I don't know how much success they had. I have no idea what happened at Exeter with the up sleeper passengers.

 

[Zoe]

If any of the delayed trains had arrived at Paddington at say 2 or 3 AM, would any onward transport have to be provided to get people to final destinations within London or would it have been a case of waiting it out on the concouse until the tube started or using a night bus?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What did the passengers do?

There's a post elsewhere that said that a taxi was provided to Reading although anyone with a final destination of Swindon had to be driven all the way to Reading on the M4 and then head back to Swindon.

 

[RYS]

I travelled from Truro to Birmingham yesterday morning (23rd), and even though I arrived 3 hours later than I should have done, after seeing how badly services across the South were affected after my journey, I do count myself lucky that I got home at all and I'm sure the TOCs have in many cases done the best they could given the immediate circumstances.

However since my journey I've been following various twitter feeds (mainly FGW and FCC) and one thing has struck me as quite shocking and that is the lack of replacement travel when train services are cancelled. I read one tweet from a man who was trying to get to Bruton, FGW staff sent him to Westbury and when he got there he found there was no way of getting to any other destination. The reply from the FGW tweeter was basically "sorry, nothing we can do, bye". I think that gentleman found a distant taxi company willing to take him in the end, but I know I have had situations before where taxis will simply refuse to offer you a service if they are too busy or too far away.

Until this week, I had always felt when buying a rail ticket that this ticket means I will get to where I need to get to, one way or another. I always know in my mind that delays (even severe ones) do happen, I always know that I might not be able to go the fastest route, and that my journey might not even be on a train (ie. it could be bus or taxi), but one way or another I WILL get there. I'm starting to think now that maybe this isn't the case.

Are TOCs really allowed to just say to people "sorry, we can't get you there, but here, have a refund". Is there no obligation to get you to your destination?

I realise the reason in many cases has been that there are simply not enough replacement buses - but is this good enough? Surely some rule somewhere needs to say that the TOCs will get those buses/taxis (and pay whatever they need to pay for them) and keep running those buses/taxis until every single last passenger is where they wanted to be. They need contracts with bus companies that say that the required number of buses is always available at a few hours notice.

To just offer a refund and wash their hands of the matter is not enough.

 

[Goatboy]

That sort of requirement is a very slippery slope, having to pay a small fortune to keep an entire fleet of buses on standby is a cost which will only be passed to the customers and actually useful only once every few years..

 

[1e10]

It looks like all damaged parts of the network have been fixed. 1X01 has called at all stations on time

 

[infobleep]

It's interesting how at 2am in the morning they tried to find hotels but people who missed their last train yesterday due to earlier trains running late appeared to be left stranded.

I understand about all the problems, I was just wondering from a rail passenger contract point of view.

Also would there have been lines yesterday where they simply didn't do anything about the trees and debris because teams were so busy elsewhere on lines considered more important? Or does each line have it's own dedicated team?

I will say this, I heard no reports of the police having to help people at stations due to lack of staff. At the Gatwick Airport terminals however, totally different story, according to someone I know who was there. Not enough staff apparently.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk

 

[dave55uk]

In answer to RYS (above), when I worked in the booking office at Cambridge, there was a clause in the conditions of travel that basically said that BR did not have to provide a service at all. Don't know if that's still in the conditions, but if it is, that's the way out for the TOCs.

 

[Bushy]

Does anyone know where/what the issues are on the Southeastern mainline services? Their Twitter/website doesn't provide any info apart from "no trains running currently". :roll:

Caught 0745 HS up yesterday, no problem except it was standing on the platform with no destination announced.
Afternoon, I got back to St. P at c.1415 with no information apart from services are disrupted. I used RTT to identify when the next train would be in but I can't understand why staff can't do similar checks particularly at St. P where Southeastern have limited services operating, as the North Kent route is under blockade. Passengers are much happier if they have information.

Regards
Bushy

 

[VauxhallandI]

It would seem the winds closed in after I made it up to GLC.

I got on an earlier train than booked. How lucky was I?

I was on the 12:30 but booked on the 14:30.

I know they were running one an hour EUS to GLC.

Does anyone know how many made it through?

Saw a message last night about one being stuck for 90mins and another giving up at Preston and someone driving down to pick their traveller up!

 

[quarella]

RYS

Are TOCs really allowed to just say to people "sorry, we can't get you there, but here, have a refund". Is there no obligation to get you to your destination?

As I have put time and again when someone has stated that road transport WILL be provided.
From National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination printed on or stored on your ticket, and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

My bold.

Clause 45 specifies what is outside of the railway's control.
A coach operator I know used to have 2 vehicles with drivers on 24 hour standby for rail work until about 10 years ago. If this was reinstated as Goatboy states the cost will be passed on to passengers. With all the journeys that are made and the short notice cancellations it is not often that people are left totally stranded. Coach operators digging up drivers any time of the day or night from Tescos, Wedding anniversary meals, rugby internationals.

We often see the words "Duty of Care" on this forum. The TOCs have a duty of care to their staff and passengers. As well as trying to keep people safe and prevent damage to stock by hitting obstacles this now extends to disgruntled passengers who have not heeded the "Do not travel" advice, have become stranded and abuse/assault staff.
The coach and taxi operators have a duty of to their staff and passengers. Keeping them safe and preventing damage to vehicles. One coach operator I use went through some flood water on rail replacement work causing £9000worth of damage.

samxool

Woken up early to find all trains cancelled, and the operators offering the advice "passengers are advised not to travel today"
Its Christmas eve. Not traveling is simply NOT an option today.
I need to get to work today, and I need to get to Bristol later today to spend Christmas with my family.
Trains will be running to Bristol Parkway later right?? I am booked on the 19:15 train.

Not travelling IS an option. You and your family understandably want to be together but this cannot always possible. My family want to see me but we have already said that if the weather makes it dangerous to travel I stay put. I can phone them and then see them later. I hope you got there but asking if trains will be running later is like asking how long is a piece of string. How much damage has been caused. How long will it take to repair? Etc.

 

[dzug2]

FGW journey check still has one 'lost' train - allegedly running 1496 minutes late.

Either a typo or the system couldn't cope with it being diverted

(1739 Cheltenham to Salisbury diverted from Chippenham to Bristol)

 

[PHILIPE]

I travelled from Truro to Birmingham yesterday morning (23rd), and even though I arrived 3 hours later than I should have done, after seeing how badly services across the South were affected after my journey, I do count myself lucky that I got home at all and I'm sure the TOCs have in many cases done the best they could given the immediate circumstances.

However since my journey I've been following various twitter feeds (mainly FGW and FCC) and one thing has struck me as quite shocking and that is the lack of replacement travel when train services are cancelled. I read one tweet from a man who was trying to get to Bruton, FGW staff sent him to Westbury and when he got there he found there was no way of getting to any other destination. The reply from the FGW tweeter was basically "sorry, nothing we can do, bye". I think that gentleman found a distant taxi company willing to take him in the end, but I know I have had situations before where taxis will simply refuse to offer you a service if they are too busy or too far away.

Until this week, I had always felt when buying a rail ticket that this ticket means I will get to where I need to get to, one way or another. I always know in my mind that delays (even severe ones) do happen, I always know that I might not be able to go the fastest route, and that my journey might not even be on a train (ie. it could be bus or taxi), but one way or another I WILL get there. I'm starting to think now that maybe this isn't the case.

Are TOCs really allowed to just say to people "sorry, we can't get you there, but here, have a refund". Is there no obligation to get you to your destination?

I realise the reason in many cases has been that there are simply not enough replacement buses - but is this good enough? Surely some rule somewhere needs to say that the TOCs will get those buses/taxis (and pay whatever they need to pay for them) and keep running those buses/taxis until every single last passenger is where they wanted to be. They need contracts with bus companies that say that the required number of buses is always available at a few hours notice.

To just offer a refund and wash their hands of the matter is not enough.

As I have pointed out to an earlier complainant expecting buses to be provided at the drop of a hat, roads as well as railway lines were closed due to flooding and trees do not decide to fall only across railway lines. The Railway does not provide buses, they have to rely on a third party to do that.

 

[Quickthorn]

I have no idea what happened at Exeter with the up sleeper passengers.

I was on that one. We got there at 04:00, where there were taxis waiting to take us to Reading, arriving around 06:30. I think everyone heading to Paddington got trains pretty much straight away. I'd abandoned my plans, though, and just wanted to get back to Bristol, but half the trains to Temple Meads had been cancelled, and the others were being cancelled 15-20 mins before departure, and no sign of that changing.

I eventually caught a XC service to New Street, then got another XC service to Temple Meads (Plymouth service terminating short, I think).

 

[RYS]

As I have pointed out to an earlier complainant expecting buses to be provided at the drop of a hat, roads as well as railway lines were closed due to flooding and trees do not decide to fall only across railway lines. The Railway does not provide buses, they have to rely on a third party to do that.

If they couldn't get enough buses this can only be because they haven't got the right provisions in place to get hold of them. I don't see why rail replacement buses always have to be provided by independent coach companies. Why can't they also use regular city buses provided by the likes of stagecoach and first? I realise most of the time these buses are in use on their regular services - but during the night and at the weekend thousands of them are sat around doing nothing. Even during the daytime many of them drive around their towns and cities nearly empty and I'm sure many of them could be spared and a reduced service run in order to help rail travellers in need.

Yes roads get affected by flooding/trees too, but with roads there's always another way around. A long an uncomfortable bus journey the long way around has got to be better than being totally abandoned or having to spend an entire night sleeping on a train.

Of course there is a cost associated with all of this which would be passed on to passengers, but perhaps it is worth it to have a service which passengers can actually rely on, and of course the cost would be alleviated by reduced compensation pay outs.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'll let somebody else reply this time to such fanciful ideas and non-real world realities.