Northern possibly close to taking on extra EMUs

[WatcherZero]

Would agree with Northern probably not initially expecting to have to do the timetable recasting work and expecting its successor to do it. TPE itself was doing the service development expecting it would be its successor that actually put it into practise.

A major change because of the delay in franchising is Northern in partnership with the Northern authorities is developing the baseline specification of post Northern Hub services so we are having a alterations in May 2014 to fit in the extra TPE path, and more recast of Transpennine and Northern routes in Dec 2014 with electrification to Liverpool with likely regular changes in every year for the rest of the decade as the Northern Hub/Electrification progressivley comes on stream.

To add even more change you should expect an announcement next week on approval subject to feasability study that the Lancashire LEP is using part of the funding from its Preston City Deal agreed this week (something around the £20m mark and smaller contributions from other parties) to fund the redoubling of Bolton-Blackburn during 2015. They are also spending nearly £200m on road schemes around Preston to unlock future housing sites and reduce congestion.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would someone kindly explain why FTPE was able to obtain a brand new fleet of Class 350/4s, but Northern are having cascaded units?

There are 86 class 319s being cascaded from Thameslink (eventually), and possibly some 377s and other stock depending on what happens on the GN routes.
None of these are really suitable for Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh services, and in any case could not be available for Dec 2013, hence TP got clearance for new stock (though 10 units is not the final word on the future TP fleet, it just gets initial services up and running).

The 319s were supposed to go to Northern and GW (Thames Valley), but who knows what the present plans are.
If the reburb/upgrade costs for a limited life are not competitive against a new fleet, we may get something different.
Either way we are running out of time to get any sort of EMU fleet in place for the initial Northern electric routes.

I suspect they are wrestling with the future fleet size for Northern, because of the extra subsidy costs this will incur.
It's very easy to talk yourself into doubling the existing fleet size (319s replacing 150/156s) and hence the leasing costs.

 

[Beveridges]

Wont it be great when the pacers are all replaced ?

Unfortunately the Liverpool elecrification will only release four 15Xs. Its not really something to get too excited about.

 

[Blindtraveler]

in a word, no, pacers are great!

 

[SeanG]

I preferred by journey through South Yorkshire yesterday on a 142. I'm sure that if it had been a 150 or 156 it wouldn't have been as enjoyable as

A) the train got busy at Sheffield
B) I wanted to see out the windows

 

[Class377/5]

Would someone kindly explain why FTPE was able to obtain a brand new fleet of Class 350/4s, but Northern are having cascaded units?

Because the Northern service had 319s in the business case and the TPE were tagged onto an existing order as last ditch method to get units in time for Dec 13 but they couldn't have been added to the entire Northern requirements.

The new units were expected to return to LM one TPE gets a completely new fleet during the ordering process but now they are for TPE until further notice.

 

[WatcherZero]

Leading to the situation where there arent enough on order to provide even the Scotland service and they have to be supplemented by the 185's.

 

[northwichcat]

Because the Northern service had 319s in the business case and the TPE were tagged onto an existing order as last ditch method to get units in time for Dec 13 but they couldn't have been added to the entire Northern requirements.

The new units were expected to return to LM one TPE gets a completely new fleet during the ordering process but now they are for TPE until further notice.

The business case is based on an illustrative example. It's not imperative that whatever it says with regards to rolling stock is set in stone. Thames Valley is also based on cascaded 319s and yet the option of new rolling stock is being looked at. The North TPE business case is based on using 380s on express services and 333s on local services - I very much doubt that'll be what happens.

 

[Class377/5]

The business case is based on an illustrative example. It's not imperative that whatever it says with regards to rolling stock is set in stone. Thames Valley is also based on cascaded 319s and yet the option of new rolling stock is being looked at. The North TPE business case is based on using 380s on express services and 333s on local services - I very much doubt that'll be what happens.

True however the 319 option was the only one properly looked into more where as the 380/333 were simply used as timings.

 

[northwichcat]

I preferred by journey through South Yorkshire yesterday on a 142. I'm sure that if it had been a 150 or 156 it wouldn't have been as enjoyable as

A) the train got busy at Sheffield
B) I wanted to see out the windows

Note that a 142 has around 100 seats in 2+2 formation or around 120 in 3+2 formation, while a 156 has around 150 seats in 2+2 formation. So what seems a busy service if it's a 142 could seem an average loading on a 156.

 

[Beveridges]

Pacers are.rubbish, ride quality is poor even on welded rail, they are smelly and they get crowded easily

 

[158722]

So now we're 12 pages into this discussion, with hindsight was there ever any real possibility of Northern having a few extra EMUs in service this December?

Or was someone in Northern reading his calendar wrong...

Spot on with your comment I think!

Northern will only really need extra EMUs from Dec next year, by which time FCC should have released 12 319s, displaced by the 12 377/2s currently operated by Southern and which will be replaced by 377/6s (4 units) and 377/7s (8 units). Some of those 319s should be available well before Dec next year for training and perhaps, some sort of refurb. Whilst none of this seems to have been formally confirmed 100%, can anyone really suggest that anything else will happen?

The 317/7s are an anomaly, but hopefully the work being done on 317722 will be a success, leading to a general life extension program for all 317 sub-classes with the 7s being standardized and back in the general EA 317 pool. I doubt they will be heading off to Northern as they will need a far bigger fleet and (hopefully) someone will not go down the line of yet another micro fleet at one of the franchises.

My suggestion is that Northern get a large fleet of 319s, including enough to replace the 323s, which move to LM, given they will need extra units for Rugeley, etc. LM release their 321s to FCC, with their 317s off to EA, in return for 5 more 321s to balance things up.

 

[D365]

My suggestion is that Northern get a large fleet of 319s, including enough to replace the 323s, which move to LM, given they will need extra units for Rugeley, etc. LM release their 321s to FCC, with their 317s off to EA, in return for 5 more 321s to balance things up.

Thameslink-GN won't need any Mk3 EMUs at all post-Thameslink, only the 365s for additional GN outers (including Cambridge Express/Kings Lynn) and the 313s for Moorgate inners, pending replacement or transfer. The entire/remaining 319, 317 and 321 fleets will be up for grabs post-2018. I have my ideas on how to use them.

 

[158722]

Thameslink-GN won't need any Mk3 EMUs at all post-Thameslink, only the 365s for additional GN outers (including Cambridge Express/Kings Lynn) and the 313s for Moorgate inners, pending replacement or transfer. The entire/remaining 319, 317 and 321 fleets will be up for grabs post-2018. I have my ideas on how to use them.

True enough...

What are your ideas? Something involving more wires around the rest of the flat lands and elsewhere?

 

[D365]

True enough...

What are your ideas? Something involving more wires around the rest of the flat lands and elsewhere?

Posted several times around the forum, nothing to do with any further electrification, though Felixstowe-Birmingham particularly would be nice - with 379s replacing the 170s of course. Basically sending the 13 ex-GN and 7 ex-Midland 321s to GA, replacing the 21 360s which are merged with the 5 HC 360s for a like-for-like replacement of the 26 Birmingham 323s (with platform lengthening/SDO in the area), which can be sent up north.

Plenty of refurbished 319s can be sent up north too, including replacement for the 8-strong 321/322 fleet which can be merged into the GA fleet. Also they can have the ex-GN and ex-SX 317s, making them sole proprietor of a refurbished Class 317/321. Should see off the 315s remaining after Crossrail (send much of the lot to Cardiff Valley for 5-10 years?) before partial takeover by Crossrail 2.

 

[Class377/5]

Currently in discussion with the DfT on the implications of providing electric trains to operate by Dec 2013

So now we're 12 pages into this discussion, with hindsight was there ever any real possibility of Northern having a few extra EMUs in service this December?

Or was someone in Northern reading his calendar wrong...

Spot on with your comment I think!

Northern will only really need extra EMUs from Dec next year, by which time FCC should have released 12 319s, displaced by the 12 377/2s currently operated by Southern and which will be replaced by 377/6s (4 units) and 377/7s (8 units). Some of those 319s should be available well before Dec next year for training and perhaps, some sort of refurb. Whilst none of this seems to have been formally confirmed 100%, can anyone really suggest that anything else will happen?

Of course there is the possibility they were talking about having more EMUs paperwork sorted by Dec 2013 not actually in service.

This is supported by the fact the Northern MD recently talked on Twitter a few weeks back about the fact Northern is talks about additional rolling stock.

Poorly worded tweet perhaps?

 

[D365]

Poorly worded tweet perhaps?

You have to be careful with your 140 characters! That's why I'm proud to maintain more posts here (as of writing now)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern will only really need extra EMUs from Dec next year, by which time FCC should have released 12 319s, displaced by the 12 377/2s currently operated by Southern and which will be replaced by 377/6s (4 units) and 377/7s (8 units).

If you look at how many Northern services are short formed on a daily basis they could do with additional units ASAP. Being one EMU down results in at least two peak time services being short formed.

Northern could also use a couple of extra EMUs to replace the diesel peak time services under the wires, which in turn would allow longer formations on a number of diesel services.

Before:
Service A: 2 x 142s
Service B: 150
Service C: 156
Service D: 142
Service E: 142

After:
Service A: EMU
Service B: 2 x 142s
Service C: 2 x 142s
Service D: 150
Service E: 156

So one extra EMU alone could mean 5 peak time services get extra seats.

 

[WatcherZero]

They are off lease and so available at short notice and Northern isnt thinking of using them for additional services so the timetable change dates become pretty irrelevent. I would however have thought that if they were going to come May or Dec next year would be more likely than this year.

 

[Beveridges]

How many Northern services actually use a DMU under the wires regularly?

One service from Picc to Crewe and back and a few between Picc and Hazel Grove. Not really a lot

 

[Bayum]

How many Northern services actually use a DMU under the wires regularly?

One service from Picc to Crewe and back and a few between Picc and Hazel Grove. Not really a lot

And then think once the rewiring is done how many will be used regularly under the wires...

There will be the Lime Street - Manchester Airport stopper for a start...

 

[34D]

Another stock option could be for some of the stored class 508s to release the 313/2 from Southern - however given the quality of their refurb 2 years ago this is most unlikely to happen.

 

[D365]

Another stock option could be for some of the stored class 508s to release the 313/2 from Southern - however given the quality of their refurb 2 years ago this is most unlikely to happen.

Erm... Hate to break it to you, but there's hardly any left.

 

[tbtc]

How many Northern services actually use a DMU under the wires regularly?

One service from Picc to Crewe and back and a few between Picc and Hazel Grove. Not really a lot

Barring problems with the 323s, not a lot.

It used to happen a lot more on the "east side" (I think that there was basically a full day's worth of diagrams run by DMUs on the Shipley routes once upon a time), though less documented on here - the arrival of the 322s means that this is fairly rare nowadays.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Spot on with your comment I think!

Northern will only really need extra EMUs from Dec next year, by which time FCC should have released 12 319s, displaced by the 12 377/2s currently operated by Southern and which will be replaced by 377/6s (4 units) and 377/7s (8 units). Some of those 319s should be available well before Dec next year for training and perhaps, some sort of refurb. Whilst none of this seems to have been formally confirmed 100%, can anyone really suggest that anything else will happen?

The 317/7s are an anomaly, but hopefully the work being done on 317722 will be a success, leading to a general life extension program for all 317 sub-classes with the 7s being standardized and back in the general EA 317 pool. I doubt they will be heading off to Northern as they will need a far bigger fleet and (hopefully) someone will not go down the line of yet another micro fleet at one of the franchises.

My suggestion is that Northern get a large fleet of 319s, including enough to replace the 323s, which move to LM, given they will need extra units for Rugeley, etc. LM release their 321s to FCC, with their 317s off to EA, in return for 5 more 321s to balance things up.

Totaly agree, Why set up more micro fleets when enough should happen by next December to suit the needs then. 317s to Northern, 323s to Northern is not a common sense option, as you say LM will need more units for Bromsgrove, Redditch and Rugeley. Lets put all the 323s with LM and all the (hopefuly) refurbished 319s with Northern as and when required, this will save the industry a lot of money and deliver the capacity needed.

 

[HSTEd]

317s to LM and then LM 323s to Northern makes more sense I think.

Since LM already has 317s.

 

[edwin_m]

Aren't 323s needed to keep ahead of Pendolinos on some of the south Manchester services? Even if reduced to three-car the 319s would not match this.

 

[Nym]

LM has 317s now?

 

[WatcherZero]

They both have roughly the same number of 32x units so microfleet argument doesnt really serve one operator better than the other.

 

[158722]

They both have roughly the same number of 32x units so microfleet argument doesnt really serve one operator better than the other.

Never said it did, but as both will need extra units in the future, it makes sense to put them all together. There are pros and cons for both LM or NOR having all the 323s, with the possibility of my suggestion removing one micro fleet - namely the LM 321s.