Racist Woman on Croydon tram given community sentence

[bb21]

Remember, that despite all that, there is no open door immigration policy for those coming from outside the EU. Fair, tolerant and welcoming does not equal soft touch.

Open door policy? Try telling that to people who cannot live together with their nearest family due to the latest changes in immigration policies.

Some people will believe anything the tabloids tell them.

 

[transmanche]

You are the one showing prejudice with comments about hard working immigrants and lazy people who were born here.

Er no. You obviously don't understand what a rhetorical question is.

I take as I find. I don't base my opinion of people on where they were born - but on their words and deeds.

 

[bnm]

Open door policy? Try telling that to people who cannot live together with their nearest family due to the latest changes in immigration policies.

Some people will believe anything the tabloids tell them.

Sorry, not quite sure why you are picking up on my comment. I did say that there was no open door policy.

And I'm also unsure about the 'tabloid' reference. Was I being 'tabloid' by saying that this country is fair, tolerant and welcoming? People come to the UK from outside the EU because their home country is far from fair or tolerant. That's called seeking asylum. Others come because they have skills that are needed.

If anything I was being a 'liberal leftie Guardian reader'. A label I'm happy to wear. However, I don't like brown rice and rarely wear sandals.

 

[bb21]

Sorry, not quite sure why you are picking up on my comment. I did say that there was no open door policy.

I wasn't referring to you, but agreeing with you.

 

[bnm]

Aha, crossed purposes. Thanks for the clarification, bb21.

Now back to my brown rice and tofu.

 

[Antman]

Open door policy? Try telling that to people who cannot live together with their nearest family due to the latest changes in immigration policies.

Some people will believe anything the tabloids tell them.

Like Abu Qatada? Its taken 8 years and a few million quid but he's finally facing justice.

Personally I never read tabloids.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Like Abu Qatada? Its taken 8 years and a few million quid but he's finally facing justice.

Personally I never read tabloids.

It is the immigrants who adhere to the radical salafist version of Islam, who are the immigrants that we should fear more than any other.

 

[Antman]

It is the immigrants who adhere to the radical salafist version of Islam, who are the immigrants that we should fear more than any other.

Or just the immigrants who come over here commiting crime and there seems to be no shortage of them. Maidstone prison in Kent is to be used soley to house foriegn nationals.............as if we haven't got enough criminals of our own!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or just the immigrants who come over here committing crime and there seems to be no shortage of them. Maid stone prison in Kent is to be used solely to house foreign nationals.............as if we haven't got enough criminals of our own!

It is the crimes that the radical salafist Islamists have in mind to vent their spleen on infidels everywhere who do not espouse Sharia Law and view all others who do not follow their particular creed as less worthwhile of life that are somewhat removed from the commonly recognised criminality of others that I had in mind. All it needs is a radical Islamic Iman issuing a fatwa to motivate these individuals, who sadly seem to mentally abide in the 7th century.

 

[Johnuk123]

Or just the immigrants who come over here commiting crime and there seems to be no shortage of them. Maidstone prison in Kent is to be used soley to house foriegn nationals.............as if we haven't got enough criminals of our own!

Around 13,000 out of 84,000 UK prisoners are foreign nationals which equates to 37 prisons with 400 beds needed just to house foreigners.

 

[jon0844]

I think there's a big difference between those who want to come here to have a better life, integrating within society and being a real benefit to all of us - and those who see as a soft touch and come because of our reputation of being soft and welcoming to even those who wish to commit crime.

I believe that we need to tighten up the rules, be tougher on the offenders and stop the latter ever coming here. And when we do so, those who remain won't risk being tarnished with the same brush.

There are plenty of people who came here years ago that are just as upset about the current state of immigration. It isn't racist to talk about such things.

 

[Johnuk123]

There are plenty of people who came here years ago that are just as upset about the current state of immigration. It isn't racist to talk about such things.

My local garage owner a very respectable and hard working Indian has a sign in his garage informing customers he is not a muslim but a hindu.

The reason for this is because so many people don't know the difference and he has no wish to be associated with such a tarnished religion.

 

[Oswyntail]

Cheaper labour? So you'll be happy to take a pay cut?....

As I am currently purely a volunteer worker, that would be difficult. But thousands of workers all over the country are taking pay cuts, either in cash terms or by pay freezes. So why shouldn't anyone? If a developer can find workers who can do the work required to the quality required at a cheaper price it is not up to the developer to satisfy his philanthropic urges by paying more to a more expensive group - if that group wishes to be employed they must either cut their prices or find some other differentiator that they can sell to the developer. A wage is not a guaranteed right, and pretending it is has got many industries into real trouble in recent decades.

 

[jon0844]

You are sadly very right, but there's going to be real problems ahead if we allow wages to fall too much.

Many people have come here who don't intend to stay. They're happy to live with many others in multiple occupancy housing (some legal, some not) and can therefore live on a lower wage quite easily.

When they've made a certain amount themselves, or sent home to their family, they'll move back (just as many already have).

Most of us aren't so lucky to do this.

 

[transmanche]

Maidstone prison in Kent is to be used soley to house foriegn nationals.............as if we haven't got enough criminals of our own!

Lets add some context.

Maidstone prison is fairly small. It has a capacity of 600 Cat C inmates, out of a total prison population in E&W of approx 80,000. It is currently used to house sex offenders and foreign nationals - roughly a 60/40 split.

Two other prisons are closing (Canterbury and Bullwood Hall) and in a reshuffle of prison population, it's been decided to concentrate foreign nationals at Maidstone. This in recognition of the good work done there rehabilitating foreign nationals and the good working relationship forged with the UKBA (for deportation of those who fit the criteria at the end of sentence).

Which all sounds eminently sensible to me.

 

[455driver]

I think we need to sort the immigration problems once and for all, but lets not forget there are many different types of immigrant-

Immigrants who intend to work and have skills we need,
Immigrants who intend to work but have skills we dont need,
Immigrants who intend to work and have no skills,
Immigrants who dont intend to work.

Because until we sort out who we are actually talking about this thread will go round and round in circles, just like every other non specific thread does.

 

[Johnuk123]

Until we sort out who we are actually talking about this thread will go round and round in circles, just like every other non specific thread does.

Why don't you start a new thread then.

 

[transmanche]

I think we need to sort the immigration problems once and for all

To do that, you first need to define exactly what the 'problem' is. Some people seem to assume there's a 'problem' because it's always being discussed in the media (to the Daily Mail, immigrants seem to blame for all the evils in the UK).

So recently we've seen the tabloids pick up on the government talking about 'benefit tourism' and 'health tourism'. Giving many people the impression that the country is flooded with millions of people who have come here just to claim the dole or get expensive surgery for free.

Yet the government's own statistics show that immigrants as group are less likely to claim benefits than people born in the UK.

If I was a migrant thinking of engaging in some benefit tourism, I wouldn't go to the UK. I'd go to Ireland, where the basic rate of Jobseeker's Allowance is €188 per week (approx £160) - more than double the UK rate of £71.10

 

[Johnuk123]

So recently we've seen the tabloids pick up on the government talking about 'health tourism'. Giving many people the impression that the country is flooded with millions of people who have come here just to get expensive surgery for free.

How NHS health tourism is costing us billions: a surgeon's story

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8880071/international-health-service/


Are you saying that a Professor consultant surgeon is making it all up.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8880071/international-health-service/


Are you saying that a Professor consultant surgeon is making it all up.

Interesting article - but would point out that the article states that 'health tourism MAY be costing the NHS billions' whereas the header states 'IS costing us billions'....despite all the accountants in the NHS they don't keep accurate records....and yes, having spent a lifetime working in the NHS I've met quite a few Consultants who are happy to make things up!

 

[Deerfold]

If we need doctors then doctors from abroad are more than welcome, if on the other hand we have builders out of work in this country then we don't need more builders from other countries, fairly obvious I would have thought?

How about if the Doctors are willing to work for a lower wage?

 

[Antman]

You are sadly very right, but there's going to be real problems ahead if we allow wages to fall too much.

Many people have come here who don't intend to stay. They're happy to live with many others in multiple occupancy housing (some legal, some not) and can therefore live on a lower wage quite easily.

When they've made a certain amount themselves, or sent home to their family, they'll move back (just as many already have).

Most of us aren't so lucky to do this.

Exactly, I heard a builder from Southampton on TV who is now on the dole, he has a wife and kids to support and simply cannot compete with Eastern Europeans who are willing to work for a pittance, ie generally those living in mulitple occupancy housing, and I've no doubt the picture is repeated all over the country. As you rightly say much of the money they earn is sent home or taken home with them when they leave so they are contributing nothing (apart from any tax they pay) to the UK economy and we're better off without them.

 

[transmanche]

Interesting article - but would point out that the article states that 'health tourism MAY be costing the NHS billions' whereas the header states 'IS costing us billions'....despite all the accountants in the NHS they don't keep accurate records....and yes, having spent a lifetime working in the NHS I've met quite a few Consultants who are happy to make things up!

Interestingly Jeremy Hunt recently used the an estimate of £12m (and it'd be in his interest to also claim it was billions) which at 0.011% of the NHS budget... is less than a rounding error.

 

[Antman]

I think we need to sort the immigration problems once and for all, but lets not forget there are many different types of immigrant-

Immigrants who intend to work and have skills we need,
Immigrants who intend to work but have skills we dont need,
Immigrants who intend to work and have no skills,
Immigrants who dont intend to work.

Because until we sort out who we are actually talking about this thread will go round and round in circles, just like every other non specific thread does.

Indeed, I'd say those who intend to work and have the skills we need (such as doctors) are welcome but I'm afraid that the rest aren't.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about if the Doctors are willing to work for a lower wage?

Well I don't think existing doctors will be very happy will they? Just as many on here wouldn't if trained rail staff were imported and were willing to work for a lower wage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To do that, you first need to define exactly what the 'problem' is. Some people seem to assume there's a 'problem' because it's always being discussed in the media (to the Daily Mail, immigrants seem to blame for all the evils in the UK).

So recently we've seen the tabloids pick up on the government talking about 'benefit tourism' and 'health tourism'. Giving many people the impression that the country is flooded with millions of people who have come here just to claim the dole or get expensive surgery for free.

Yet the government's own statistics show that immigrants as group are less likely to claim benefits than people born in the UK.

If I was a migrant thinking of engaging in some benefit tourism, I wouldn't go to the UK. I'd go to Ireland, where the basic rate of Jobseeker's Allowance is €188 per week (approx £160) - more than double the UK rate of £71.10

Why do people keep blaming 'the tabloids'? I've not bought a daily paper for years because up to the minute news is available online.

Most of us can see what the problems are for ourselves, some it seems choose to bury their heads in the sand.

 

[Johnuk123]

I'm afraid that until we get an NHS passport then the massive International abuse will only get worse.

The UK seems to be the only one where anybody from any country in the world can step off a plane and get free medical treatment and then fly back home.

It's plainly obvious we are going to be the country of choice when anybody has an illness that costs more than a flight, it's stupid to think otherwise.

 

[Antman]

Lets add some context.

Maidstone prison is fairly small. It has a capacity of 600 Cat C inmates, out of a total prison population in E&W of approx 80,000. It is currently used to house sex offenders and foreign nationals - roughly a 60/40 split.

Two other prisons are closing (Canterbury and Bullwood Hall) and in a reshuffle of prison population, it's been decided to concentrate foreign nationals at Maidstone. This in recognition of the good work done there rehabilitating foreign nationals and the good working relationship forged with the UKBA (for deportation of those who fit the criteria at the end of sentence).

Which all sounds eminently sensible to me.

Well I'm sure the prison service know better than me about the logistics of it all but would you not agree that around 13,000 foriegn nationals in British prisons is a cause for concern?

 

[Oswyntail]

Well I'm sure the prison service know better than me about the logistics of it all but would you not agree that around 13,000 foriegn nationals in British prisons is a cause for concern?

The figure is 10,725, approx 13% of the prison population. Of those, just under half will be considered for deportation after completion of sentence. (Source:http://www.detentionadvice.org.uk/facts-and-figures.html). Now what these figures do not show is how many of these are resident, for how long, what crimes they are in for, or, indeed, where they are actually national.(For instance, because of the close relations between the two countries, I would not be surprised to see Eire over-represented.) Has this changed significantly over time? So no - figures on their own do not show cause for concern.

 

[Antman]

The figure is 10,725, approx 13% of the prison population. Of those, just under half will be considered for deportation after completion of sentence. (Source:http://www.detentionadvice.org.uk/facts-and-figures.html). Now what these figures do not show is how many of these are resident, for how long, what crimes they are in for, or, indeed, where they are actually national.(For instance, because of the close relations between the two countries, I would not be surprised to see Eire over-represented.) Has this changed significantly over time? So no - figures on their own do not show cause for concern.

I'm just repeating the figure that 'Johnuk123' quoted earlier in the thread, but even if the figure is 'only' 10,725 I'd say that is still a tad concerning

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm afraid that until we get an NHS passport then the massive International abuse will only get worse.

The UK seems to be the only one where anybody from any country in the world can step off a plane and get free medical treatment and then fly back home.

It's plainly obvious we are going to be the country of choice when anybody has an illness that costs more than a flight, it's stupid to think otherwise.

Has any newspaper/reporter managed to write an article on this...using interviews with such health tourists? I can't say that I know much about it.
Also, I wonder what the comparable costs are for British ex-pats who use the Spanish health service for example (given that there are about 1/3 million of them - I think - and many are of a 'certain age')

 

[Johnuk123]

The figure is 10,725, approx 13% of the prison population. Of those, just under half will be considered for deportation after completion of sentence. (Source:http://www.detentionadvice.org.uk/facts-and-figures.html). Now what these figures do not show is how many of these are resident, for how long, what crimes they are in for, or, indeed, where they are actually national.(For instance, because of the close relations between the two countries, I would not be surprised to see Eire over-represented.) Has this changed significantly over time? So no - figures on their own do not show cause for concern.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/offenders/types-of-offender/foreign

Over 14% of prisoners are foreign says Government

Over 14% according to the Ministry of justice which was in January so as it's rising everyday 15% is probably an underestimation as of today.

15% of 84,000 = 12,600.

Even using your figures to say that all these thousands upon thousands of foreigners in jail is not a cause for concern is liberalism at its finest.