South Western Train accuses fare evasion

[Stigy]

I would ask if (s)he had the authority to look in my bag without my permission, and if they did have the authority what legislation gives them that authority!
At no stage would I raise my voice, get personal or abusive, once you go down that route you are on a hiding to nowhere.

I can be a cantankerous old git when the mood takes me.

You'll probably find it's the same with us railway officials in that you only need to state in laymans terms why you're reporting someone, detaining them or generally asking them questions. No need to be specific...Though it can help sometimes as it shows you know your onions...

 

[class303]

Hmmm. Can't help but feel sorry for the OP here.

Firstly, I think it should be compulsory for the ticket office to ask if you intend to return that day when asked simply for "a return", that's just common sense. Poor customer service.

Secondly, this is the 2nd thread recently where the gate-line at Waterloo has bullied a female traveller for making a simple mistake. Another easy target. I wonder how quickly the escalation from PF to report for prosecution would be if the customer was built like a brick ****house and just out of Wormwood Scrubs? It's easy to say "you should have taken the £20 offer" but anyone would be annoyed at the prospect, and apparently voicing your annoyance is enough to report you for prosecution. I'm assuming these RPIs are after the easy stats. "It looks better if we have as many prosecutions as possible, so lets withdraw the offer of a PF for the slightest of reason".

Now i appreciate we don't have the gateline's version of events but this is uncannily similar to another thread like this, again involving a female passenger. So forgive me if i draw my own conclusions from that.

 

[455driver]

Hmmm. Can't help but feel sorry for the OP here.

Firstly, I think it should be compulsory for the ticket office to ask if you intend to return that day when asked simply for "a return", that's just common sense. Poor customer service.

Secondly, this is the 2nd thread recently where the gate-line at Waterloo has bullied a female traveller for making a simple mistake. Another easy target. I wonder how quickly the escalation from PF to report for prosecution would be if the customer was built like a brick ****house and just out of Wormwood Scrubs? It's easy to say "you should have taken the £20 offer" but anyone would be annoyed at the prospect, and apparently voicing your annoyance is enough to report you for prosecution. I'm assuming these RPIs are after the easy stats. "It looks better if we have as many prosecutions as possible, so lets withdraw the offer of a PF for the slightest of reason".

Now i appreciate we don't have the gateline's version of events but this is uncannily similar to another thread like this, again involving a female passenger. So forgive me if i draw my own conclusions from that.

Some nice assumptions there! :roll:
Or were you a witness to both incidents?

 

[class303]

Some nice assumptions there! :roll:
Or were you a witness to both incidents?

well surely if she asked for "a return coming back tomorrow" she would have been issued the correct ticket?! and if not, poor customer service!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just noticed she purchased from a machine, so i take back my 1st point!

 

[Chapeltom]

With respect to the OP, the name "ANYTIME DAY RETURN" written across the ticket would suggest that it is a day return, along with the "Valid until" date also displayed on the ticket, sometimes people need to take a little bit of responsibility for their own actions. We only have one side of the story here and if the OP was awkward then i'm not surprised that it was esculated to an MG11.

I fully agree with this. I've just picked up an old ANYTIME DAY RETURN ticket at home and showed it someone not familiar with rail travel, they had no issues understanding it. I'm sure TVMs are clear on restrictions too.

Ignorance isn't a defence to not acknowledging the validity of the ticket. If I was in a similar situation, I'd have been rather embarrassed to have made such a simple mistake, paid the P.F and moved on red faced knowing it was lesson learnt.

 

[jb]

We only have one side of the story here and if the OP was awkward then i'm not surprised that it was esculated to an MG11.

Of course we only have one side of the story. Nonetheless "being awkward" is not really enough. The ticketing offence has not magically become more serious. Escalation on the basis of passenger behaviour is very shaky ground.

Also, pointing out the passenger should have known is neither here nor there in this case. Few are disputing the legitimacy of the PF.

 

[455driver]

Of course we only have one side of the story. Nonetheless "being awkward" is not really enough. The ticketing offence has not magically become more serious. Escalation on the basis of passenger behaviour is very shaky ground.

The OP refused to pay the PF, what else were the staff to do?

 

[Llanigraham]

Simple answer; remove all Penalty Fares and prosecute every one who defaults on their legal responsibility.
Should stop all the arguements on here!

 

[island]

And clog up Magistrates Courts beyond belief...

 

[Llanigraham]

So......
If a lot of people knew that not paying ended up with a criminal record they'd be a bit more pro-active in buying their ticket either beforehand if available, or actually on the train.

 

[rdwarr]

However, this thread concerns somebody who believed they had bought a valid ticket.

 

[RPI]

But maybe they genuinely thought that ANYTIME DAY RETURN meant that it was a return valid at "Any time (of) day", rather than it was an anytime return only valid for one day...

And maybe i could think that the sign that says "Free cash" on certain ATM's allows me to ramraid it to get some "free cash".....would struggle to convince a Magistrate of that.

 

[Deerfold]

And maybe i could think that the sign that says "Free cash" on certain ATM's allows me to ramraid it to get some "free cash".....would struggle to convince a Magistrate of that.

I thought it was only me that was disappointed whenever a transaction from a "free cash" machine shows up on my statement.

 

[Haywain]

Of course we only have one side of the story. Nonetheless "being awkward" is not really enough.

I suspect that there was rather more than "being awkward". If that was all, I doubt an off-duty police officer would bother to get involved. But that's the problem with only having one side of the story.

 

[jb]

I suspect that there was rather more than "being awkward". If that was all, I doubt an off-duty police officer would bother to get involved. But that's the problem with only having one side of the story.

That is perfectly possible, but nonetheless (especially) if an off-duty officer were involved I would expect them to get the passenger to calm down and listen, the RPI to issue the PF, and everyone to go on their way.

I don't buy this escalation to MG11 lark in anything but the most extreme cases.

 

[Airlink]

I paid SWT £12.90 when I now know I should have paid them £13.20 - we are talking about 30 pence. A completely innocent mistake. I wasn't trying to save 30p. I saw ADULT and RETURN and made the selection not realising I had to return on the same day. I made a mistake by not checking the dates on my tickets. I will not do that again. I will also not travel with SWT again.
I don't feel my return ticket was irrelevant, it was proof that I had paid £12.90 and my intentions were not to dodge a fare. I was acting entirely in good faith but had made an innocent error.
It escalated extremely quickly and their behavior was extremely bullying.
It's clear I can't do anything until the letter arrives which is what I wanted to find out, so thanks for your feedback.

Seems you made a mistake, as a travelcard 1-6 would have only cost £8.50.

Were the barriers in operation at Feltham upon your return journey? If not I can see where you wouldn't have been aware.

Seems to me yet another case of our complicated fares system.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Seems you made a mistake, as a travelcard 1-6 would have only cost £8.50.

Were the barriers in operation at Feltham upon your return journey? If not I can see where you wouldn't have been aware.

Seems to me yet another case of our complicated fares system.

£8.90 now for a Z1-6 Travelcard!

 

[island]

Seems you made a mistake, as a travelcard 1-6 would have only cost £8.50.

Were the barriers in operation at Feltham upon your return journey? If not I can see where you wouldn't have been aware.

Seems to me yet another case of our complicated fares system.

The passenger was returning on a different day so a Z1-6 day Travelcard would not have been suitable.

That is perfectly possible, but nonetheless (especially) if an off-duty officer were involved I would expect them to get the passenger to calm down and listen, the RPI to issue the PF, and everyone to go on their way.

I don't buy this escalation to MG11 lark in anything but the most extreme cases.

If the passenger refuses to accept a penalty fare or fails or refuses to pay the single fare for the journey made then what else is an RPI to do? They can't be expected to stand there and argue with the passenger until they change their mind or need a PNB.

 

[jb]

If the passenger refuses to accept a penalty fare or fails or refuses to pay the single fare for the journey made then what else is an RPI to do? They can't be expected to stand there and argue with the passenger until they change their mind or need a PNB.

Sigh. The whole point concerns what constitutes "refusal to accept".

If you simply re-state that as a black-and-white concept (furthermore, that "refusal" is what the RPI says it is) then yes, there is nothing to discuss.

But don't you think that's both terribly dull and potentially missing a salient point? (this is, at least in part, rhetorical).

 

[Chapeltom]

Seems you made a mistake, as a travelcard 1-6 would have only cost £8.50.

Were the barriers in operation at Feltham upon your return journey? If not I can see where you wouldn't have been aware.

Seems to me yet another case of our complicated fares system.

Congratulations on your failure to read the original post. This is nothing to do with "our complicated fares system", more perhaps the failure of the OP to understand the terms of their ticket.

 

[Eagle]

Seems to me yet another case of our complicated fares system.

Day Returns being valid for one day isn't complicated. It's intuitive.

 

[alcockell]

Umm - might it be possible that many other countries are more explicit than GB tickets in relating to validity - by using the legend SAMEDAY rather than "ANYTIME DAY RTN" - which could, considering that most of NZ's rail service is *long-haul*, be construed as "any time of day".

And over the PF issue - it is colloquially known as a "fine"...

 

[rdwarr]

Day Returns being valid for one day isn't complicated. It's intuitive.

True, but the OP was convinced they had a "Return", not a "Day Return".

 

[Haywain]

Umm - might it be possible that many other countries are more explicit than GB tickets in relating to validity - by using the legend SAMEDAY rather than "ANYTIME DAY RTN" - which could, considering that most of NZ's rail service is *long-haul*, be construed as "any time of day".

And over the PF issue - it is colloquially known as a "fine"...

The comparison with New Zealand is just silly. On much of the NZ network, "any day" isn't an option, let alone "any time of day".

 

[island]

Sigh. The whole point concerns what constitutes "refusal to accept".

If you simply re-state that as a black-and-white concept (furthermore, that "refusal" is what the RPI says it is) then yes, there is nothing to discuss.

But don't you think that's both terribly dull and potentially missing a salient point? (this is, at least in part, rhetorical).

When, in your opinion, has a passenger "refused" to accept a penalty fare? What must he say or do?

 

[GadgetMan]

When, in your opinion, has a passenger "refused" to accept a penalty fare? What must he say or do?

I've never issued PFs so can't comment directly.

However as a Guard I have reported countless passengers through the TIR Process. Conversation usually goes something like this;

I'm sorry sir your ticket is not valid at this time in the morning as it's an Off-Peak ticket and you cannot travel on that until after 9:30 am.

Oh, I didn't know that as the website failed to tell me.

I can offer you one of 2 choices, you can either get off at the next manned station and wait there for an hour or pay an excess of £XX and stay on this train.

That's ridiculous, it's your websites fault for not pointing the restriction out when I purchased the ticket.

You are more than welcome to put a Customer Complaint in regarding the website sir however the restriction still stands and if you wish to remain on this train then you will need to pay the excess which is the same amount you would've been charged if you'd purchased the correct ticket anyway so you are not being penalised in anyway for the error.

I don't agree and I don't see why I should have to pay anymore than I have done already.

I'm afraid sir that you will still need to either pay the excess or leave the service and wait for a train that is Valid with your ticket. You are welcome to pay the excess for which I will give you a new ticket and receipt and take it up with customer relations later on.

Nope, I'm not getting off as I need to get to work and I won't be paying for a new ticket.

In that case you're required to provide me with your details and our revenue protection department will contact you in the near future to discuss your journey today and ticket held.

I'll do that and take it up with them.

I must warn you sir that going down this route is very risky as you leave yourself open to being taken to court for traveling without a Valid ticket and paying the fare due when given an opportunity.

Are you threatening me? You don't intimidate me, I have friends who are lawyers and there is no way this will go anywhere near a court. Do whatever you like.

And we go through the TIR process..... Prosecution letter drops through the customers letter box and reality hits home. Usually for small sum of sub £20.



I have left out the 'Jobsworth' type comments that you usually get inbetween. Most passengers who get reported through MG11s or TIRs talk themselves into far more trouble than is necessary usually because they talk themselves into a corner and then do not want to lose face in front of other passengers by backing down. Of the 80 or so TIRs I have submitted, only around 5 were for passengers I was out hunting for as they were regular fare evaders. The other 75 were given every opportunity throughout to consider whether all the hassle that is to come is worth it for the sake of a few quid.


The most petty one I had was a female who had been sold a Single in the morning instead of a Return by the ticket office. I came across her on the return journey where she handed over a Single from that morning. After a brief conversation I was satisfied it was a mistake.

I politely explained to her that she should check her tickets before leaving the window in future to avoid such situations and offered to excess the Single to a Return for 10p.

Because according to her it was the clerks mistake she refused to pay the 10p and went on to become pretty abusive so talked herself into being met by the BTP and went on to being prosecuted for ticketless travel, refusing to pay, providing false details and being verbally abusive towards a member of railway staff. She was otherwise a pretty decent well educated person in a good steady job.

Some people just cannot be helped on the day and leave staff with one of two options;

1) Let it go. But this will just encourage the passenger to argue and abuse their way out of any similar situation in future with one of my colleagues.

2) Go down the TIR/MG11 route and let the TOC and passenger deal with it directly.

 

[CNash]

When, in your opinion, has a passenger "refused" to accept a penalty fare? What must he say or do?

If, after being informed of purpose of Penalty Fares, and the potential consequences of refusing to accept one, the passenger states categorically that he will not accept the Penalty Fare. A heated "I'm not paying any fine!", or similar, shouldn't cut it - the passenger must be informed of the consequences of refusal.

Edit: apologies, that's my opinion, rather than jb's.

 

[Flamingo]

I've never issued PFs so can't comment directly.

However as a Guard I have reported countless passengers through the TIR Process. Conversation usually goes something like this;

I'm sorry sir your ticket is not valid at this time in the morning as it's an Off-Peak ticket and you cannot travel on that until after 9:30 am.

Oh, I didn't know that as the website failed to tell me.

I can offer you one of 2 choices, you can either get off at the next manned station and wait there for an hour or pay an excess of £XX and stay on this train.

That's ridiculous, it's your websites fault for not pointing the restriction out when I purchased the ticket.

You are more than welcome to put a Customer Complaint in regarding the website sir however the restriction still stands and if you wish to remain on this train then you will need to pay the excess which is the same amount you would've been charged if you'd purchased the correct ticket anyway so you are not being penalised in anyway for the error.

I don't agree and I don't see why I should have to pay anymore than I have done already.

I'm afraid sir that you will still need to either pay the excess or leave the service and wait for a train that is Valid with your ticket. You are welcome to pay the excess for which I will give you a new ticket and receipt and take it up with customer relations later on.

Nope, I'm not getting off as I need to get to work and I won't be paying for a new ticket.

In that case you're required to provide me with your details and our revenue protection department will contact you in the near future to discuss your journey today and ticket held.

I'll do that and take it up with them.

I must warn you sir that going down this route is very risky as you leave yourself open to being taken to court for traveling without a Valid ticket and paying the fare due when given an opportunity.

Are you threatening me? You don't intimidate me, I have friends who are lawyers and there is no way this will go anywhere near a court. Do whatever you like.

And we go through the TIR process..... Prosecution letter drops through the customers letter box and reality hits home. Usually for small sum of sub £20.



I have left out the 'Jobsworth' type comments that you usually get inbetween. Most passengers who get reported through MG11s or TIRs talk themselves into far more trouble than is necessary usually because they talk themselves into a corner and then do not want to lose face in front of other passengers by backing down. Of the 80 or so TIRs I have submitted, only around 5 were for passengers I was out hunting for as they were regular fare evaders. The other 75 were given every opportunity throughout to consider whether all the hassle that is to come is worth it for the sake of a few quid.


The most petty one I had was a female who had been sold a Single in the morning instead of a Return by the ticket office. I came across her on the return journey where she handed over a Single from that morning. After a brief conversation I was satisfied it was a mistake.

I politely explained to her that she should check her tickets before leaving the window in future to avoid such situations and offered to excess the Single to a Return for 10p.

Because according to her it was the clerks mistake she refused to pay the 10p and went on to become pretty abusive so talked herself into being met by the BTP and went on to being prosecuted for ticketless travel, refusing to pay, providing false details and being verbally abusive towards a member of railway staff. She was otherwise a pretty decent well educated person in a good steady job.

Some people just cannot be helped on the day and leave staff with one of two options;

1) Let it go. But this will just encourage the passenger to argue and abuse their way out of any similar situation in future with one of my colleagues.

2) Go down the TIR/MG11 route and let the TOC and passenger deal with it directly.

Excellent post, giving a very good summary of the "normal" situation guards face day in day out.

 

[jon0844]

TVMs could and should make things clearer, and if you rush you might see 'anytime' and misread. Some destinations produce loads of options which can easily confuse (such as Heathrow airport) and is one reason why TVMs really can't replace ticket offices.

For one, I'd seek to introduce two ways to buy. A quick mode for regulars and a 'wizard' that asks questions like where you're going, is it for immediate travel or later, when you are returning (if applicable), what operator you want to use (if applicable, with the option for 'any') and what class you wish to travel.

Of course, if you make that mistake then I do think people should just accept the PF if offered, then write in to customer service to give feedback if they feel their mistake was down to bad advice or poor software etc.

This might just get the money back as a goodwill gesture, and if not, you're not going to have to deal with court or hefty out of court settlements.

 

[pinguini]

TVMs could and should make things clearer, and if you rush you might see 'anytime' and misread. Some destinations produce loads of options which can easily confuse (such as Heathrow airport) and is one reason why TVMs really can't replace ticket offices.

For one, I'd seek to introduce two ways to buy. A quick mode for regulars and a 'wizard' that asks questions like where you're going, is it for immediate travel or later, when you are returning (if applicable), what operator you want to use (if applicable, with the option for 'any') and what class you wish to travel.

Of course, if you make that mistake then I do think people should just accept the PF if offered, then write in to customer service to give feedback if they feel their mistake was down to bad advice or poor software etc.

This might just get the money back as a goodwill gesture, and if not, you're not going to have to deal with court or hefty out of court settlements.

If this gets introduced may I suggest one TVM for the dummies guide and another for regulars altogether. It is bad enough queuing behind the former as it is.