Responsibility for platform ticket checks/automated barriers

[northwichcat]

At stations like Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria G4S on behalf of Northern Rail undertake the ticket checks. At Stockport it's G4S on behalf of Virgin. In those cases I can see logic - the company that is responsible for the ticket office also takes control of the revenue protection.

However, at stations like Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds what gives Northern the right to take responsibility for ticket checking, given that in neither case are they just checking passengers who alight their services?

I've heard Virgin aren't happy about the Manchester Piccadilly situation while in the past there's been problems with TPE passengers with valid tickets not being able to get on to the platform at Leeds due to the barriers/staff manning the barriers being unaware about a relaxation of the expiry time of Off Peak Day Returns on TPE which used to allow use on a departure at around 1am the following morning (but doesn't still exist.)

 

[Starmill]

At stations like Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria G4S on behalf of Northern Rail undertake the ticket checks. At Stockport it's G4S on behalf of Virgin. In those cases I can see logic - the company that is responsible for the ticket office also takes control of the revenue protection.

However, at stations like Manchester Piccadilly and Leeds what gives Northern the right to take responsibility for ticket checking, given that in neither case are they just checking passengers who alight their services?

I've heard Virgin aren't happy about the Manchester Piccadilly situation while in the past there's been problems with TPE passengers with valid tickets not being able to get on to the platform at Leeds due to the barriers/staff manning the barriers being unaware about a relaxation of the expiry time of Off Peak Day Returns on TPE which used to allow use on a departure at around 1am the following morning (but doesn't still exist.)

Is it? That's very odd, since Virgin have no checks at Piccadilly. Not that I've ever seen at least. And the guys at Stockport wear blue uniforms? Perhaps its just for consistency...

Certainly there are some TPE departures where the Northern G4S staff will check tickets, and departures by any TOC from platforms 10, 11, 13 & 14 tend to be 'checked' by them, but the rest of the time, I'm under the impression that they are there to check the tickets of arriving passengers (i.e. on Northern services) more than anything else.

 

[northwichcat]

Is it? That's very odd, since Virgin have no checks at Piccadilly. Not that I've ever seen at least. And the guys at Stockport wear blue uniforms? Perhaps its just for consistency...

Previously when I said in a post on here about Virgin RPIs at Stockport, someone replied saying they were contracted to G4S and no-one mentioned on behalf of Northern, which is where I've got that they are G4S on behalf of Virgin.

The times I've used Stockport recently have been off-peak times when there have been no revenue checks in place so I haven't seen any there in the new Northern uniforms.

Certainly there are some TPE departures where the Northern G4S staff will check tickets, and departures by any TOC from platforms 10, 11, 13 & 14 tend to be 'checked' by them, but the rest of the time, I'm under the impression that they are there to check the tickets of arriving passengers (i.e. on Northern services) more than anything else.

I get the impression that they do 13/14 to get the most revenue. I think there's only 3 Northern arrivals and 3 Northern departures from those platforms as standard pattern.

There may well be an agreement with TPE in place. Obviously TPE have a fair few departures from Northern managed stations like Oxford Rd and Bolton, while Northern have a fair few from TPE managed stations like Huddersfield and Warrington Ctl. An agreement with ATW would also have some logic to it.

 

[Jonfun]

There may well be an agreement with TPE in place. Obviously TPE have a fair few departures from Northern managed stations like Oxford Rd and Bolton, while Northern have a fair few from TPE managed stations like Huddersfield and Warrington Ctl. An agreement with ATW would also have some logic to it.

You want to inflict the misery of being held up by the G4S monkeys on Arriva's passengers too? (For the record, I agree it's wrong to generalise and they're probably not all bad. It's just in years of living around Manchester and regularly travelling by trains I haven't yet met a single one that isn't.)

Also, as far as I'm aware G4S have no involvement with Oxford Road or Leeds - that's done by Northern, who I believe run the ticket offices in both stations.

 

[Starmill]

You want to inflict the misery of being held up by the G4S monkeys on Arriva's passengers too? (For the record, I agree it's wrong to generalise and they're probably not all bad. It's just in years of living around Manchester and regularly travelling by trains I haven't yet met a single one that isn't.)

I agree; its unfair to say that all G4S staff are bad, but I too have never met a single one who is not. I've heard about... one person. Can't remember who told me, but they said they got sold an excess by one for gods sake!

As an anecdote, the other day I asked for a return, and got given a single AND the outward potion of a return! How the hell can you even DO that to an avantix machine!?

 

[northwichcat]

You want to inflict the misery of being held up by the G4S monkeys on Arriva's passengers too? (For the record, I agree it's wrong to generalise and they're probably not all bad. It's just in years of living around Manchester and regularly travelling by trains I haven't yet met a single one that isn't.)

Given that passengers alighting Arriva's North Wales-Manchester service at Piccadilly are subjected to them more than passengers on Northern's Chester-Manchester service*, while Northern passengers boarding/alighting at Chester get checked by ATW, it seems it's happening anyway whether there's an agreement or not. If anything an extension of it should be subjecting Northern's passengers at Crewe to ATW RPIs not more ATW passengers subjected to G4S.

* Until recently it was rarely checked and now it's only usually departures from platforms 10 and 11 which may be most of them but still a small proportion than the number of Arriva services to/from 13/14 that get checked.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Certainly there are some TPE departures where the Northern G4S staff will check tickets, and departures by any TOC from platforms 10, 11, 13 & 14 tend to be 'checked' by them,

I have noticed a certain G4S barriered and manned section on the approach concourse at Manchester Piccadilly railway station in recent times at the far end of the concourse, as both platforms 11 and 12 see Northern services and I was wondering if this was all part of a crackdown campaign on ticket evasion.

 

[Starmill]

I have noticed a certain G4S barriered and manned section on the approach concourse at Manchester Piccadilly railway station in recent times at the far end of the concourse, as both platforms 11 and 12 see Northern services and I was wondering if this was all part of a crackdown campaign on ticket evasion.

Almost every day (not sure about Sundays) there are G4S checks at the doors to 13/14 (for the travelators) and at the door for 10, as well as at the concourse end of 10, between it and 9. Combined with the checks on the bridge just before the stairs down to 10, this generally means that the whole area is blocked.

Is this what you mean?

As for 12, it isn't generally covered by this arrangement, but it certainly is for most train arrivals there weekday mornings.

 

[northwichcat]

As for 12, it isn't generally covered by this arrangement, but it certainly is for most train arrivals there weekday mornings.

I thought the doors marked platforms 11+12 are now locked with passengers directed via the doors marked 13+14 where G4S are waiting behind. Or did Northern get stopped from doing that?

 

[Starmill]

I thought the doors marked platforms 11+12 are now locked with passengers directed via the doors marked 13+14 where G4S are waiting behind. Or did Northern get stopped from doing that?

No, that doesn't happen anymore. I mean, it might, but it certainly has not been every time I've used platform 12, which at last count was Friday morning.

Its possible there could have been safety implications when a packed 323 turns up there at 08:11 and 08:42 (most Styal Line arrivals seem to use it in the morning peak these days), but don't really know.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is this what you mean? As for 12, it isn't generally covered by this arrangement, but it certainly is for most train arrivals there weekday mornings.

I was referring to coming up to the heavy rail platforms from the Manchester Metrolink system to board a train that was leaving from platform 12. I accessed the terminal platform section to do this and there were no G4S on barrier checks at the entrance to the platforms 8/9 entrance which I used to enter, then I turned right to walk to platform 12, but was met with a barrier and with G4S staff as I approached the back of platforms 11/12, which have access set further back than platforms 1 to 10. Hope this explanation helps.

 

[Starmill]

I was referring to coming up to the heavy rail platforms from the Manchester Metrolink system to board a train that was leaving from platform 12. I accessed the terminal platform section to do this and there were no G4S on barrier checks at the entrance to the platforms 8/9 entrance which I used to enter, then I turned right to walk to platform 12, but was met with a barrier and with G4S staff as I approached the back of platforms 11/12, which have access set further back than platforms 1 to 10. Hope this explanation helps.

Oh I think I see. Is this where you mean? If so, that is often completely blocked by a barrier which you can't walk through at all. Until a train dispatcher moves the posts to squeeze past and leaved a gap.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Oh I think I see. Is this where you mean? If so, that is often completely blocked by a barrier which you can't walk through at all. Until a train dispatcher moves the posts to squeeze past and leaved a gap.

Indeed this is so. Any idea why those two platforms are set back in that position when compared to platforms 1 to 10?

 

[wijit]

Chaps, I'm not too sure I fully understand this. I readily admit to knowing less than nothing about the finer details here, so please be patient with me.
Do the G4S people have a right to perform these checks on all arrivals/departures? Do they do this on behalf (with or without permission of) of TOC's? Why would any company not want ticket checks done?
Genuine questions, sorry if they seem a bit dim.
Just as an aside, I frequently meet people arriving on 13 at Piccadilly, normally I would grab a coffee at the little booth in the waiting area, do I need platform ticket to do so if the barriers are manned?

 

[Clip]

Of course they have the right to check your ticket.

They are working on behalf or a company.

 

[northwichcat]

Do the G4S people have a right to perform these checks on all arrivals/departures? Do they do this on behalf (with or without permission of) of TOC's? Why would any company not want ticket checks done?
Genuine questions, sorry if they seem a bit dim.

G4S are contracted by Northern Rail so in line with NRCoC if they ask you for a ticket then you have to show them a ticket.

If someone intending to travel to London at an off-peak time walked towards a Virgin Train without a ticket and were stopped by G4S, G4S could either sell them the circa. £70 off-peak fares or direct them to the ticket office. If they weren't stopped by G4S and got on to the train ticket-less then Virgin could charge them the £154 peak single through the 'buy before you board' policy. Northern would also get commission on the £70 ticket leaving less for Virgin. That might be why Virgin don't want G4S checking their passengers prior to boarding.

Also, if another operator like XC start getting too many complaints from passengers that G4S are trying to stop passengers with valid tickets boarding their trains due to them not understanding the validity then XC might not be too happy about the passengers being subjected to G4S.

The question I'm really asking in the original post is though is Northern are not responsible for the management of Manchester Piccadilly station (Network Rail are) nor ticket selling facilities (Virgin are) so what gives Northern the right to take responsibility for revenue protection?

 

[rebmcr]

Indeed this is so. Any idea why those two platforms are set back in that position when compared to platforms 1 to 10?

Purely based on my familiarity with the building, is it not probably due to the junction for 13 pushing the platforms for 11 & 12 to begin further south than for 1-10?

 

[Starmill]

Purely based on my familiarity with the building, is it not probably due to the junction for 13 pushing the platforms for 11 & 12 to begin further south than for 1-10?

I suspect that, 12, certainly, would be too short if they finished level with 1-10. That said, the restricted length means that I've never seen two trains in 12 at the same time anyway. It regularly takes 3-car 175/185/322, but I suppose the longest thing it might need to take these days would be 4-car Sprinters? Any 6-car 185s use it? Is it even long enough for that now!?

 

[34D]

Of course they have the right to check your ticket.

They are working on behalf or a company.

So are cleaning operatives, but I don't think they have the right to see a ticket.

G4S are just a security company, so I don't see what right they have to do work that should be done by a Northern RPI or gateline assistant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So are cleaning operatives, but I don't think they have the right to see a ticket. G4S are just a security company, so I don't see what right they have to do work that should be done by a Northern RPI or gateline assistant.

I suppose you have to know under what exact terms of reference the outsourcing contract was awarded to G4S by Northern, in order to know what services would be required to be carried out by any G4S operative.

Whilst we are on this subject, does anyone on this forum who works for Northern Rail actually know what these contracted duties are, as just a generalised supposition by members of the travelling public surely cannot give the truth of the matter. A knowledge of such terms of authority given by the terms of the outsourcing agreement is one that would need to be fully understood in a Court of Law should any abrogation of such responsibility be alleged to have occurred.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Of course they have the right to check your ticket.

They are working on behalf or a company.

Just a shame they are absolutely useless doing it


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose you have to know under what exact terms of reference the outsourcing contract was awarded to G4S by Northern, in order to know what services would be required to be carried out by any G4S operative.

Whilst we are on this subject, does anyone on this forum who works for Northern Rail actually know what these contracted duties are, as just a generalised supposition by members of the travelling public surely cannot give the truth of the matter. A knowledge of such terms of authority given by the terms of the outsourcing agreement is one that would need to be fully understood in a Court of Law should any abrogation of such responsibility be alleged to have occurred.

From what I have been told they have authority to check and sell tickets. Withdraw tickets if being used illegally. Issuing failure to purchase notices (I think they have to have a police officer present but I cannot actually prove that) and they can do TIR's. However Guards can overrule any G4S staff. As I have done on quite a few occasions.

 

[GodAtum]

J However Guards can overrule any G4S staff. As I have done on quite a few occasions.

maybe some training is in order!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

They are poorly trained and on minimum wage. Hopefully one day Northern will see sense and bring revenue back in house and pay people an honest wage with proper training. I just can't see that happening though.

 

[185]

I've heard Virgin aren't happy about the Manchester Piccadilly situation while in the past there's been problems with TPE passengers with valid tickets not being able to get on to the platform at Leeds due to the barriers/staff manning the barriers being unaware about a relaxation of the expiry time of Off Peak Day Returns on TPE which used to allow use on a departure at around 1am the following morning (but doesn't still exist.)

It was 3am, and it was listed in the fares manual under easements, introduced under Northern Spirit in early 2000. Was hit and miss with staff at Leeds.

-Some opened all the gates and let everyone through, including those without tickets.
-Some adhered to the correct rule and allowed people through for the first of the two night Manchester & York services (second one was after the 3am cut off)
-One or two others took it upon themselves to come up with their own rule stating anyone after midnight needs a new ticket.

Rest assured there was a written exception/easement rule in the back of fares manual quite recently. It may have disappeared from the book, but has not been formally retracted/removed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was hit and miss with staff at Leeds...One or two others took it upon themselves to come up with their own rule stating anyone after midnight needs a new ticket.

Flair and the spirit of creative commercial thinking still being alive and well at Leeds...

 

[Starmill]

From what I have been told they have authority to check and sell tickets. Withdraw tickets if being used illegally. Issuing failure to purchase notices (I think they have to have a police officer present but I cannot actually prove that) and they can do TIR's. However Guards can overrule any G4S staff. As I have done on quite a few occasions.

I'm perhaps biased, but good on you man!!!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

G4S are just a security company, so I don't see what right they have to do work that should be done by a Northern RPI or gateline assistant.

One Company enters into contractural agreements with another, one supplyng services to the other. The 'right' you are struggling to see is an obligation placed on the Supplier as a Term of the Contract.

The 'should be done by' is an interesting opinion.
The compulsion to collect revenue, and to do so with endeavour and dilligence, is a Contractural committment of the franchisee, Northern Rail in this case. Revenue protection should be done, as you put it.
But where would we find such a restrictive Condition that prevents a Railway Operator from entering into contracts with suppliers to deliver their services, to fulfill their obligations, to obtain services and to buy and sell materials? In fact, it is a requirement of the Rail Companies' agreements that they allow and honour agreements with other Companies.

What is unclear about a TOC Contracting revenue protection services?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm perhaps biased, but good on you man!!!!

They are gr8 though at catching fare dodgers from Mauldeth Road

Just kidding

One thing they are good at is what they have been doing down Lines like The Styal branch is concentrating all their efforts at one place (East Didsbury is a regular). We have had trouble with the Schoolkids fare evading in that area for years. Its good to see the look on their faces when they see the blockade and in my opinion serves more good then being unknowledgable Hitlers at piccadilly.

 

[Starmill]

They are gr8 though at catching fare dodgers from Mauldeth Road

Just kidding

One thing they are good at is what they have been doing down Lines like The Styal branch is concentrating all their efforts at one place (East Didsbury is a regular). We have had trouble with the Schoolkids fare evading in that area for years. Its good to see the look on their faces when they see the blockade and in my opinion serves more good then being unknowledgable Hitlers at piccadilly.

Oh you're so funny. Statistically, chances are that you've sold me a ticket from Mauldeth Road.

But I'm intruiged... where is the blockade at E Didsbury? If they are catching people arriving southbound then they just say they got on at Mauldeth Road surely? The ticket office was closed there if its the after schools?

 

[Greybeard33]

Previously when I said in a post on here about Virgin RPIs at Stockport, someone replied saying they were contracted to G4S and no-one mentioned on behalf of Northern, which is where I've got that they are G4S on behalf of Virgin.

The times I've used Stockport recently have been off-peak times when there have been no revenue checks in place so I haven't seen any there in the new Northern uniforms.

If someone intending to travel to London at an off-peak time walked towards a Virgin Train without a ticket and were stopped by G4S, G4S could either sell them the circa. £70 off-peak fares or direct them to the ticket office. If they weren't stopped by G4S and got on to the train ticket-less then Virgin could charge them the £154 peak single through the 'buy before you board' policy. Northern would also get commission on the £70 ticket leaving less for Virgin. That might be why Virgin don't want G4S checking their passengers prior to boarding.

The question I'm really asking in the original post is though is Northern are not responsible for the management of Manchester Piccadilly station (Network Rail are) nor ticket selling facilities (Virgin are) so what gives Northern the right to take responsibility for revenue protection?

The long-standing ticket checks and sales at the stairway to the northbound Platforms 3&4 at Stockport have always been carried out by staff in Northern-like uniforms. Recently, however, there have at times been blockades of the stairway to the southbound Platforms 1&2 (which used to be unprotected most of the time) carried out by a posse of staff in Virgin uniforms, complete with red necker. Presumably their role is mainly to stop ticketless boarding of southbound Virgin services - some of them were initially poorly trained about the extent of validity of GM concessionary travel passes on Northern services.

Maybe whichever TOC has most revenue at risk on a given platform takes on the responsibility for checks, regardless of which company manages the station?

I would have thought that all TOCs have an obligation, as part of their duty of care to their employees, to try to preempt, where reasonably practical, unpleasant confrontations on board the train between fare evaders and the train manager/guard.