Driver Only Operated Trains

[Barn]

My recall of DOO was one of ASLEF's move to get £8 per shift to go without a guard.
ASLEF in my view will do anything to get more money, no matter who got made redundant.
They would collude with management, and they never bothered about those who lost thier jobs.
It was an attitude that I'm all right jack and sod any one else.
I speak from bitter experiance of the first DOO train at Healey mills was October 1988., when a driver call Don Guy worked the first DOO train from the Mill to Toton and back again.
As far as I know ASLEF are still the same.

Hang on, though. All unions are selfish in favour of their members and that fact is normally trumpeted on this forum as a good thing by union members .

ASLEF versus guards is no different to RMT versus public.

 

[RPM]

One day there will be an incident on a DOO train where the driver is incapacitated and the passengers start spilling out onto the track and get electrocuted or mown down. Purely by good fortune this hasn't happened yet but it will, and when it does DOO will become the new hot potato in railway safety and everybody will flap about it and new rules and procedures will be implemented. That's how things work on the railway.

 

[455driver]

Overall I would have thought that full DOO with ASDO (which includes right-side door enable) and in-cab CCTV, which remains on as the train is pulling out, must be the safest method of operation.

So you dont want the driver looking where he is going then!

The in cab monitors on the 377s turn off at 3mph or so anyway.

 

[Barn]

Along with answers like:

I'm not a fan, at all, of DOO as found on FCC and SE (et al) for the reasons outlined in that scenario and also just basic customer service. But where there is still a second member of train crew on board, such as with Strathcylde Scotrail services (which are DOO), then I'm less convinced by the arguments put forward by that scenario. As there would still be someone else on board to raise the alarm and deal with passengers.

I can't really comment on safety as I'm not qualified to do so. But, at least on Southeastern metro services in the peak, the customer service point is a red herring. There would simply be no room for the guard to leave his cab, let alone patrol the train.

 

[Mojo]

That is true, but they are not trained to the same standard as a guard would be. And if they are they may as well do the doors and announcements too as the driver already has enough on his/her plate and door operation by the guard is safer anyway.

It surely depends on the method by which the guard controls the doors. I am not sure, for example, that on stocks where the guard has no window to look out of (e.g. Pacers, Voyagers, 156s, etc.) guard dispatch is any safer than on trains with track-to-train CCTV such as the S-Stock.

Further, a guard operating the doors takes away valuable time which could perhaps better be used for dealing with customer service or revenue issues. One problem on branch lines with unstaffed stations is that trains are occasionally delayed where the guard is still handling money when the train has stopped in the platform, or that the guard is unable to visit everyone who wishes to see him because of the requirement to operate the doors.

 

[bronzeonion]

I can't really comment on safety as I'm not qualified to do so. But, at least on Southeastern metro services in the peak, the customer service point is a red herring. There would simply be no room for the guard to leave his cab, let alone patrol the train.

Announcements at least? Since drivers are not meant to announce whilst the train is moving, a list of interchanges with times and platforms read out by the guard approaching London Bridge I'm sure would be welcomed by many!

 

[Skoodle]

Scenario:

The 17:30 DOO rush hour service calling at all stations to Welwyn Garden City departs Kings Cross packed to the brim with commuters. Further along the line some vandals have laid a short piece of rail accross the 4 foot ontop of the rails. It is foggy and dark but the driver spots the rail last second and applies the emergency brakes knowing that will not stop the accident. The front of the train collides with an embankment wall killing the driver and the rest of the train derails and is in danger of being crashed into by a passing train on the other line. The passengers for the majority are alive but many are uncouncious and some are seriously injured from where they have been crushed by people, breaking bones etc. The passengers who are mainly uninjured naturally try to flee the scene and whilst doing so are limping accross the other lines trying to get away from the scene and find help. Meanwhile the still uncouncious or seriously injured passengers who are now unable to move due to serious injury are still in the wreckage and a fire breaks out. By now the emergency services have arrived and hopefully some emergency reponse units from the railway too.

If that were me driving and I noticed something laying across the track, knowing that I would probably derail, I would be putting the train in to Emergency braking with my left hand and activating the GSM-R Railway Emergency Call with my right hand at the same time. Not only would all trains stop immediately in the area and adjacent areas, but the signaller would know instantly who I was and where I was roughly should I become incapacitated.

 

[yorkie]

I don't like it as its a lack of staff visibility on DOO trains compared to non DOO trains as there's only one member of staff ie driver and this isn't acceptable to me.

On-board staff are a lot more visible on the Scotrail trains around Glasgow (which are DOO) than on SWT suburban services (which have guards who do not generally patrol the train).

.... And if they are they may as well do the doors and announcements too as the driver already has enough on his/her plate and door operation by the guard is safer anyway....

I disagree. It's better for drivers to open doors at least, as with a guard you can get a delay (frequently up north - in fact on some Northern services you know you are going to get a delay at every single station!!)

On XC Voyagers, drivers open the doors, and they don't have DOO!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If that were me driving and I noticed something laying across the track, knowing that I would probably derail, I would be putting the train in to Emergency braking with my left hand and activating the GSM-R Railway Emergency Call with my right hand at the same time. Not only would all trains stop immediately in the area and adjacent areas, but the signaller would know instantly who I was and where I was roughly should I become incapacitated.

More like you would throw it into emergency and pray. I find it hard to believe that you would be so nice and calm that you would do everything in a nice and controlled manner.

 

[bronzeonion]

It surely depends on the method by which the guard controls the doors. I am not sure, for example, that on stocks where the guard has no window to look out of (e.g. Pacers, Voyagers, 156s, etc.) guard dispatch is any safer than on trains with track-to-train CCTV such as the S-Stock.

Further, a guard operating the doors takes away valuable time which could perhaps better be used for dealing with customer service or revenue issues. One problem on branch lines with unstaffed stations is that trains are occasionally delayed where the guard is still handling money when the train has stopped in the platform, or that the guard is unable to visit everyone who wishes to see him because of the requirement to operate the doors.

New mainline stock seems to built with a drop down window in the cab doors as standard (Electro/Turbostars, Desiro). Recently whilst waiting for a train, a SN 377 was departing and as the guard dispatched the train from one of the passenger doors I'm sure I spotted a small screen in the guards panel I'm not sure whether this shows the view from the outside mounted cameras or if it is purely for announcements (SN guards, any help on this matter?) These could be installed on trains without drop down windows in the cabs. It wouldn't be any safer for drivers to handle the doors on Voyagers/Pacers anyway without similiar screens to be installed but for the drivers use instead of the guard.

The punctuality of the train and operation of doors should be priority over revenue and ideally revenue would be handled by the revenue department rather than the guard if the distance between stations is so short that this problem arises.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If that were me driving and I noticed something laying across the track, knowing that I would probably derail, I would be putting the train in to Emergency braking with my left hand and activating the GSM-R Railway Emergency Call with my right hand at the same time. Not only would all trains stop immediately in the area and adjacent areas, but the signaller would know instantly who I was and where I was roughly should I become incapacitated.

In thick fog and darkness and by the time you spotted it, say travelling at 40 - 50mph are you sure you would have enough time to react and press the right button on the radio before being sent flying by the first wheel hitting the rail? Even worse if travelling at a higher speed, for example on the 100mph Cambridge Express trains on FCC which are DOO or the fast Bedford trains running on the fast lines on the MML also at 100mph.

A guard would still be better to have on board in these circumstances as there will still be a delay between the accident happening and the emergency services reaching the scene.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On-board staff are a lot more visible on the Scotrail trains around Glasgow (which are DOO) than on SWT suburban services (which have guards who do not generally patrol the train).

I disagree. It's better for drivers to open doors at least, as with a guard you can get a delay (frequently up north - in fact on some Northern services you know you are going to get a delay at every single station!!)

On XC Voyagers, drivers open the doors, and they don't have DOO!

A change of the rulebook whilst maintaining the same levels of safety would make it just as fast as DOO. Such as markers for the guard installed on the platform to ensure the train is platformed correctly. And like 455driver mentioned earlier in this thread a good guard would know what to look out for at every station anyway.

 

[Mojo]

A green line is painted along the platform on the Cross-city line in Birmingham to indicate to the Senior Conductor that the train is berthed correctly. I cannot find anything about this in the rulebook, so perhaps it is a local instruction.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/3/5/6/enhanced-buzz-3177-1362483119-0.jpg (ignore the amusing local newspaper headline)

 

[bronzeonion]

A green line is painted along the platform on the Cross-city line in Birmingham to indicate to the Senior Conductor that the train is berthed correctly. I cannot find anything about this in the rulebook, so perhaps it is a local instruction.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/3/5/6/enhanced-buzz-3177-1362483119-0.jpg (ignore the amusing local newspaper headline)

I noticed that and also noticed the lack of delay from stopping and the doors being released. Though they seemed to be placed at ramdom places on the platform rather than the rear of the train.

 

[9K43]

Hang on, though. All unions are selfish in favour of their members and that fact is normally trumpeted on this forum as a good thing by union members .

ASLEF versus guards is no different to RMT versus public.

And how would you know about this, have you been in ASLEF of in the RMT, or any other trade union .
I speak from 27.5 years as a member of the RMT, and 27.5 years of the tricks ASLEF get upto when there is money to be made.

 

[Mojo]

I noticed that and also noticed the lack of delay from stopping and the doors being released. Though they seemed to be placed at ramdom places on the platform rather than the rear of the train.

Trains on the Cross-city line operate as 6 car (two units) or 3 car (one unit) formations. When operating as a 6 car the Senior Conductor would usually be located in the front cab of the rear unit (ie. towards the middle of the train).

The picture below shows Five Ways, which has a different stopping point for 3 car and longer trains.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Five_Ways_railway_station_in_2006.jpg

 

[bronzeonion]

Trains on the Cross-city line operate as 6 car (two units) or 3 car (one unit) formations. When operating as a 6 car the Senior Conductor would usually be located in the front cab of the rear unit (ie. towards the middle of the train).

The picture below shows Five Ways, which has a different stopping point for 3 car and longer trains.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Five_Ways_railway_station_in_2006.jpg

Thanks for telling me this, I was wonderign what the lines were for.

A good idea by LM, I this should be more widespread.

 

[455driver]

And a forum member told me that a train was cancelled the other week because of no OBM being available. Conversely my understanding of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is that trains on the Glasgow Electric suburban network can run if no TE is available.

At one stage nearly a third of SPTE trains were running without a TE on board due to a freeze on recruitment.

Do people advocating DOO with a TE on board realise that the TE is not classed as safety critical and so cannot help where the driver is incapacitated or to detrain the passengers in an emergency as they do not hold PTS and are not trained in evacuation etc, all they do is tickets and customer service.

 

[Skoodle]

More like you would throw it into emergency and pray. I find it hard to believe that you would be so nice and calm that you would do everything in a nice and controlled manner.

Oh trust me I won't be calm, I'd be emptying my bladder no doubt. However self preservation and training come in to it. If I'm going to survive being derailed, the last thing I'd want to do is be hit head on by an oncoming train on the adjacent line, a quick movement with my right hand to press a big red button isn't exactly taxing.

 

[pendolino]

The in cab monitors on the 377s turn off at 3mph or so anyway.

They actually turn off as soon as you take power. In fact I use this as an indication that the traction motors are powering up to avoid a roll back. Power handle to notch 1, with thumb on the hill start, as soon as the DOO monitors go blank I know I can release the hill start, which is before the wheels even start to turn. Conversely, it's also an indicator of when the traction motors aren't powering up, e.g., when the DRA is still set. If I start to take power (again with the hill start button depressed) and the monitors stay active then it usually means I've forgotten to reset the DRA at somewhere like Sanderstead where there is no starter and the next signal (protecting South Croydon Jct) is more often than not at danger.

New mainline stock seems to built with a drop down window in the cab doors as standard (Electro/Turbostars, Desiro). Recently whilst waiting for a train, a SN 377 was departing and as the guard dispatched the train from one of the passenger doors I'm sure I spotted a small screen in the guards panel I'm not sure whether this shows the view from the outside mounted cameras or if it is purely for announcements (SN guards, any help on this matter?)

I'm a driver not a guard but as far as I'm aware the monitors on the guards' panel show images from the internal CCTV, not external. The DOO monitors in the rear (non-active) cab show internal CCTV images too.

 

[tbtc]

If you were starting from scratch, you'd never come up with a system where the Guard had to operate all doors (meaning that they needed to frequently go to the doors to control them on "stopper" services) - it's completely inefficient and stops them circulating around the train.

Even more so is the Pacer way of doing things (going to the rear set of doors to operate the controls) but that's thankfully on its way out.

Driver operation of doors makes perfect sense, and works on plenty of lines - there's absolutely no reason not to do this (other than people trying to protect the role of the Guard).

The problem is the slippery slope that this first step leads us onto...

 

[455driver]

New mainline stock seems to built with a drop down window in the cab doors as standard (Electro/Turbostars, Desiro).

Try looking out of a Desiro window and let me know how you get on! :roll:
its actually mounted in the door which is behind the drivers seat.

Your anti-driver bias is well known (failed the psycho tests or something did we?) and frankly its all getting rather boring now, every time any of these threads pop up (which is every few months) you are there with your usual biased drivel, if it was possible to reliably and safely go DOO everywhere then they would, but it isnt so they dont!

 

[Mojo]

The in cab monitors on the 377s turn off at 3mph or so anyway.

Interesting; I've also wondered what the visibility is like from these bodyside cameras. I saw a lady at St Pancakes on Friday cleaning the cameras with a sponge on a stick

On the 92 Stock (LU) they come on before the train hits the platform and leave once the rear of the train is clear of the platform area. Difference being though is that the CCTV shows images from the platform cameras rather than cameras mounted on the side of the train.

 

[bronzeonion]

Try looking out of a Desiro window and let me know how you get on! :roll:
its actually mounted in the door which is behind the drivers seat.

Your anti-driver bias is well known (failed the psycho tests or something did we?) and frankly its all getting rather boring now, every time any of these threads pop up (which is every few months) you are there with your usual biased drivel, if it was possible to reliably and safely go DOO everywhere then they would, but it isnt so they dont!

Excusme? What do you mean by anti-driver?

I have not failed any tests, infact I havn't taken any of them anyway! I am there in those threads voicing my opinions and giving reasons for them on DOO! And why having a guard onboard a train is better.

 

[455driver]

They actually turn off as soon as you take power.

Thanks, I knew they werent on for long but couldnt remember when they switched off.

I love these "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" threads!

 

[bronzeonion]

I'm a driver not a guard but as far as I'm aware the monitors on the guards' panel show images from the internal CCTV, not external. The DOO monitors in the rear (non-active) cab show internal CCTV images too.

Oh, thanks for the information

 

[PaxVobiscum]

On-board staff are a lot more visible on the Scotrail trains around Glasgow (which are DOO) than on SWT suburban services (which have guards who do not generally patrol.

Just out of interest, what exactly is the safety rôle of a ScotRail ticker examiner and how does that differ from that of a guard?.

Not trying to make any points or judgements here, just wondering. I would imagine that a guard would be more highly trained, have more responsibility and be better paid.

The average passenger probably thinks there is still a 'guard' on suburban ScotRail trains because a person in uniform checks.

EDIT: OK silly question, answer easy to find on here and elsewhere. Sorry.
e.g.

Driver Only Operation (DOO) is defined in Railway Group Standards as:
"The operation of a train without a person on board for the purpose of protecting the train when the driver is incapacitated and the train is stopped by failure, accident, obstruction of the line or other exceptional incident."

http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Driver+Only+Operation

 

[pendolino]

Interesting; I've also wondered what the visibility is like from these bodyside cameras. I saw a lady at St Pancakes on Friday cleaning the cameras with a sponge on a stick

Perfectly good enough for DOO in my opinion. At night at poorly lit stations the pictures can be very dark and grainy, but this is only at somewhere like Dormans where despatch is carried out by the conductor so the in-cab monitors aren't required anyway (they can be turned off by the driver on non-DOO services but I tend to have them on by default).

Was the lady with a sponge on a stick a Roman who'd just been to the loo? I hope not. Ewww.

edit: probably worth adding that if the in-cab monitors aren't working, we won't run a 377 DOO. But auxing off and back on to reboot the system seems to solve any monitor problems in 99% of cases.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I'm not so sure about the safety argument holding TOCs back, cost is still one of the big factors in keeping guards on trains. The investment needed into bringing everything up to DOO standards is huge and while it is being chipped away at over time (most, if not all new traction is at least DOO ready and GSM-R is a significant step in undermining the role of the guard) it is still going to be expensive to do a lot of lines, and that is before you even consider the cost of going to war with the unions.
People will say that TOCs will get their money back after going DOO, and they will eventually. I don't even think a guard who is fully paid up RMT member will dispute that fact, but the problem (or depending on your point of view, the benefit) of rolling out such a program is how long it will take to get that money back. If it takes, say 10 years to get your money back then why would a TOC on a 7 year franchise want to spend half of that time being in dispute with it's staff and installing expensive equipment only to find it loses the franchise at the end of it all?

The next round of Franchising might be interesting, a lot of them will be the first ones drawn up post McNulty.

 

[455driver]

Excuse Me? What do you mean by anti-driver?

I have actually taken some of your comments as anti-driver, if I am mistaken then I apologise.

Thats the trouble with stuff written on the web you cant tell what the writer was meaning when typing and sometimes the opposite viewpoint can come across, I have done it myself.

Edit, I have found who I meant on another thread so I definitely apologise to you.

 

[Mojo]

People will say that TOCs will get their money back after going DOO, and they will eventually. I don't even think a guard who is fully paid up RMT member will dispute that fact, but the problem (or depending on your point of view, the benefit) of rolling out such a program is how long it will take to get that money back. If it takes, say 10 years to get your money back then why would a TOC on a 7 year franchise want to spend half of that time being in dispute with it's staff and installing expensive equipment only to find it loses the franchise at the end of it all?

Which I think is exactly why DOO, or indeed any proper attempt at restructuring the industry, hasn't really been rolled out since privatisation; it doesn't make sense (financially) for a Toc to do it given the current structure of the industry.

 

[bronzeonion]

I have actually taken some of your comments as anti-driver, if I am mistaken then I apologize.

Thats the trouble with stuff written on the web you cant tell what the writer was meaning when typing and sometimes the opposite viewpoint can come across, I have done it myself.

Oh hell no, having no drivers is the last thing I'd want to happen!