Caught by a Revenue Protection Officer at Ealing

[ronnie007]

Hi,

I was caught by a Revenue officer at Ealing with a legitimate ticket for the return journey, but he wanted to check my oyster card. Earlier in the day I couldn't tap in and therefore had to tap out at Paddington where I was charged the maximum fare (£7.20) anyway. The officer didn't show me any ID, and told me my rights and cautioned me. He then questioned me and wrote them as well as my answers down. He let me read this and made me sign it. He also said I would have to explain any incomplete journeys on the oyster history, but if I bought my paper tickets with cash I have no way to prove this. He said I will be receiving a letter in 3-4 weeks.

I'm not sure whether he stopped me because of what happened earlier on that day (not tapping in from where I entered the train), or whether he thinks I am a serial offender because he mentioned that I will have to explain the incomplete journeys on my oyster history. The problem with the latter case is that I do not have any proof of buying the tickets that I did because I threw the tickets away and I don't have any proof of purchase either.

Im really worried about what this could lead to, as I am a medical student, and cant afford to have any sort of criminal record. I just wanted to know whether the caution he told me was a police caution, and what the likelihood of events from now is. What are the chances of a criminal record? I am prepared to do an out of court settlement as early as possible, so long as I avoid any sort of criminal record on a normal or enhanced CRB/DBS.

Many thanks in advance,

mopo54321

 

[causton]

One simple question:

Did you have a valid ticket for the journey you were currently making at the time you were stopped?

If the answer is yes (which, from the post, it seems like)... I don't see why they then had to check your Oyster card! Did you show them the Oyster card first or did they ask for it or did you show it to them as you were getting your ticket out?

You mention you threw the ticket(s) away - but did anything in the report you read and signed say you held the ticket(s)? If not, I would be asking the person who filled out the report why they did not mention those other tickets as they are a significant addition to the case...

 

[ronnie007]

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I had a valid ticket when I was stopped and questioned. He then asked for my oyster and told me to explain what happened in the morning. He later mentioned that it was very easy to board the train without paying for a ticket, so I'm guessing he thinks i could be a serial offender. And with no proof of tickets, I can't prove that I am not. I don't recall mentioning the paper tickets being thrown away or anything to that extent. Towards the end he said that I would have to explaining the incomplete journeys on my oyster history but with those paper tickets, how is this possible?

 

[bb21]

What ticket did you hold when you were spoken to?

Why did you through your valid ticket away, given the fact that you knew you were in trouble and that could be the single most important evidence you could rely on?

 

[MikeWh]

Can you clarify what your movements were that day and what tickets you held and/or what touches you made. Ealing Broadway is a funny station in some respects, though I'm not sure that what you were doing is affected by the issue there.

 

[ronnie007]

I held a valid ticket from Ealing back to where I live on FGW national rail. I suspect he thinks I saw him and went to buy a ticket, and that I usually evade fares. And I always throw my tickets away after I have used them, which is what i was referring too. But I kept the ticket I bought that day after I got stopped, sorry I didn't make this clear.

 

[GadgetMan]

Were the RPIs checking all passengers around you or did they target you in some way? I appreciate it may not be easy to distinguish between the two if there weren't any other passengers around at the time.

Also this Return paper ticket you mention, was it actually a Return (RTN) ticket type of which I guess you'd thrown the OUT portion away or 2 Singles (SGL) one of which had now been thrown away?

It may help if you provide as much information as you can as to your movements and tickets held rather than drip feed them. Obviously you can leave out specific details which may help identify you.

 

[ronnie007]

So I tapped in at Hayes in the morning but it didn't register, and I had to run and catch the train otherwise I would have missed it. I then went to Paddington, where I explained this to the officer and he tapped out for me saying you would have been charged maximum fare anyway. When I checked this I was (£7.20). On the way back, tapped in at South Kensington, tapped out at Ealing and bought a ticket incase oyster didn't work again when I tapped out at Hayes.

My usual route, which I explained to him is buying a return ticket to Ealing on FGW national rail, and then using oyster at Ealing to get to central London. But I don't have any record of these Ealing return tickets to back my story up should he want to try and charge me for fare evasion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm not sure whether he was targeting me because there were at least 10 other officers with him, but I was dressed in sporting wear and covered in mud because I had just been playing football.

 

[bb21]

So I tapped in at Hayes in the morning but it didn't register, and I had to run and catch the train otherwise I would have missed it. I then went to Paddington, where I explained this to the officer and he tapped out for me saying you would have been charged maximum fare anyway. When I checked this I was (£7.20). On the way back, tapped in at South Kensington, tapped out at Ealing and bought a ticket incase oyster didn't work again when I tapped out at Hayes.

So you bought an expensive paper ticket because the reader did not work (assuming what you said is true) in the morning? Surely if it did not work on the way back when you tried to touch out then you would just explain it to staff in the ticket office (or Oyster Helpline) to resolve the overcharges?

My usual route, which I explained to him is buying a return ticket to Ealing on FGW national rail, and then using oyster at Ealing to get to central London. But I don't have any record of these Ealing return tickets to back my story up should he want to try and charge me for fare evasion.

Where do you usually travel from? Hayes & Harlington?

 

[ronnie007]

I usually travel from Langley, just that day I went from Hayes because I got a lift to there. And I wasn't sure what the problem was when it didn't register, so I just bought a paper ticket to be safe. I'm not really bothered about these overcharges, I just want to make sure I don't get any form of criminal record.

 

[bb21]

How many incomplete journeys are there in your Oyster history?

 

[ronnie007]

What would you define as incomplete, tapped in without tapping out? and vice versa?

 

[bb21]

What would you define as incomplete, tapped in without tapping out? and vice versa?

Yes, either entry only or exit only.

 

[ronnie007]

So I've just had a quick check on my journey history, which only allows me to go back to the start of December 2012 for some reason. I've had 2 including the one he questioned me about, and the second one was in the same week. What happened there was I tapped in at Barons Court, and had to go out again to get something, so the officer said that fine, just go to the office get him to cancel it. So on the journey history it says Barons Court to (No touch Out). But above that it says Pay as you go balance adjusted which is when I went to the office to cancel the tap in, and then tapped in again and tapped out at Ealing. I think I quickly explained this to the RPI, not 100% sure though.

 

[bb21]

They only go back 8 weeks so that's about right.

You still have the valid ticket which you used to Hayes that day with you if I read you correctly?

I don't understand this. If you paid a maximum fare then that would have been the end of the matter. As you had a valid ticket for the journey you were undertaking, you didn't do anything wrong there. There is also no history of incomplete journeys to suggest foul-play over time.

If you genuinely tried to touch in but the machine was faulty then you need to explain this clearly in your reply. They should be able to check logs at the particular machine you tried to touch in. The difficulty I guess is that it will be your words against theirs.

 

[ronnie007]

Yh I had a valid ticket, and I don't know why he decided to caution me and take this further. I remember him saying that the charge is not a maximum fare but a penalty charge for not entering or something. I told him that I am willing to pay a fine then if that was the case but he didn't listen.
I know that around October 2012 I bought a zone 1-3 monthly where I was only tapping out on the way to uni, and tapping in on the way back, which would maybe class as incomplete journeys. But with a monthly you don't need to tap in and tap out, and so it would still be a legitimate journey. I dont know whether he had any record of this though on his oyster reader.

 

[Nick W]

Did you read the RPI's statement? Can you remember what it said?

 

[ronnie007]

I was a bit shaken in the moment and so didn't read the statement properly. But from what i recall, he asked me about 5/6 questioned that he noted down. and the majority of my answers were 'yes', or 'yes probably'. I believe he initially asked me about the morning journey, and he asked me why I am going to Hayes when I don't live there. And at the end he said that you will have to explain any incomplete journeys or something like that. I can explain these journeys, but I don't have a way to prove it if they take me to court. I guess all I can do is wait for the letter he said the will send in 3/4 weeks?

 

[MikeWh]

Only you know whether what you have told us is correct or not. I agree that he probably suspected you of evasion. Does your journey history show your usual trips from Ealing in the morning and back to Ealing in the evening? If it does then I can't see what is wrong. You don't need to keep tickets after the journey has finished so there is nothing they can do about previous travel. It might be an idea to keep some tickets for the next few days along with todays one. It could be helpful to explain why you got a lift to Hayes and who from. Also, request monthly statements by email from Oyster online. If you do it now you should get December in a day or so and January after the end of the month. All of this should be kept to send with your response to their letter.

If everything is as you have described then I don't see this being taken any further. The cancelled entry at Barons Court is nothing to worry about. You should be invited to apply for a refund of the incomplete charge in a few days when you log in to Oyster online. If you say where you entered they should amend the history and process a refund of the difference. Alternatively you could call the helpdesk and request a refund.

Try not to worry over the next few weeks.

 

[ronnie007]

So I just checked my oyster history again and there are 3 instances where I didn't have a return journey back to home because I was picked up from uni that day. But all the rest have a return journey. I can explain the lift that day, and I have kept and will be keeping all the tickets I purchase from now onwards. What exactly are these monthly statements that I should request for?

I honestly just want an end this this case ASAP. If I were to just accept whatever they charge me with and offer them an out of court settlement, would I be correct in saying that I would not get any sort of criminal record (enhanced CRB/DBS or not). Or would I have to plead not guilty to avoid a criminal record. In this case, would I still be able to plead non-guilty and offer an out of court settlement?

 

[island]

I don't recommend any out-of-court settlements if, as it seems, you haven't done anything much wrong.

 

[Wath Yard]

What actually happened at Ealing? Did you tap out with your Oyster, go straight to the ticket machine to purchase a paper ticket and then immediately re-enter? If so, that might have appeared to be odd behaviour and why you were stopped.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
I honestly just want an end this this case ASAP. If I were to just accept whatever they charge me with and offer them an out of court settlement, would I be correct in saying that I would not get any sort of criminal record (enhanced CRB/DBS or not). Or would I have to plead not guilty to avoid a criminal record. In this case, would I still be able to plead non-guilty and offer an out of court settlement?

As you appear to be (in part) aware, the former CRB system is changing. The Disclosure and Barring Service data records include "soft information" which goes beyond criminal convictions while the disclosure procedures will relate the information held to the nature of the inquiry being made.
It might take time for the new procedures to become clearer in some areas, I certainly couldn't advise "just accepting whatever they charge me with" and expecting the outcome never to be revealled thereafter.

 

[ronnie007]

Wath Yard, yup that is what I did, and I know it looks odd but I did tell him why I purchased the paper ticket. My main concern, which has been bugging me ever since this happened is getting any sort of criminal record, whether enhanced CRB or not, as this would jeopardise my career.

 

[MikeWh]

So I just checked my oyster history again and there are 3 instances where I didn't have a return journey back to home because I was picked up from uni that day. But all the rest have a return journey. I can explain the lift that day, and I have kept and will be keeping all the tickets I purchase from now onwards. What exactly are these monthly statements that I should request for?

When you select "Journey History" in the "My Card" tab on Oyster online there is a yellow panel inviting comments about the new version of journey history and suggesting you might want to set up statements. Just click the second link. Or, from the "My Account" tab select "Preferences" and then the desired card (if you have more than one).

Missing complete journeys are no problem, it's trying to show a regular pattern of using Oyster only between Ealing and Central London. Multiple incomplete journeys (only a touch in OR out, but NOT both) would point to potential fare evasion, especially if the fare from Langley is significantly higher than the incomplete journey charge.

 

[Panda]

Something which seems missing here is where did you come from to be at Ealing? You say you have a return from Ealing to where you live, but how did you get to Ealing from Paddington? Did you tap in? Something is missing here...

 

[ronnie007]

I usually get the Ealing return ticket from Langley, but because I was at Hayes that day, I used my oyster to get to Paddington and then walk it to my uni. This is where the oyster didn't register and I was charged £7.20 at Paddington. Then on the way back i tapped in at SK and tapped out at Ealing to get the paper ticket back to Hayes so I could get a lift back home.

 

[Qwerty133]

well done for admitting to us that you do normally evade the fare and giving us at least some of your name, there's no reason why I or any other member shouldn't send a screenshot of the above to the TOC concerned which would provide enough eveidence for a section 5 offence which leads to a criminal record