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Creation of the Universe

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Butts

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If you discount the Biblical version of events may I pose the following question.......

If there was nothing there in the first place, how could there have been anything there to create anything ?
 
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NSEFAN

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How can you know that there was nothing before? The Big Bang is only the start of this universe. For all we know, stuff could have always existed in one form or another. We just assume that everything must have a beginning, as this is what we experience in everyday life. To then automatically apply this concept to disciplines of science is dodgy at best, especially given how, at a quantum level, events are determined more by probability and not causality.

As to what happened before the Big Bang is anyone's guess. Fill the gaps as you please. I personally think it's cheating to say that a God/Gods did it. It's far more honest to say "I don't know" rather than "I don't know, therefore God (which just so happens to be the God of the culture I live in)". :p
 

Oswyntail

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....The Big Bang is only the start of this universe.....
The "Big Bang Theory" is just that, a theory, and, as such, one should expect it to be proved incorrect. One of its gaping holes is the question of what was there before. One may just as well answer "Dunno" as "God" or "The fart of a pan-dimensional space goat" - at present we do not know and cannot tell, and, when (if) we can the Big Bang Theory will have been blown to pieces.
My own hunch is that huge problems are created by a confused understanding of the nature of time, which is often treated as an entity in its own right.
 

Peter Mugridge

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According to ( the current ) quantum theory all the stuff literally did appear from nothing!







Don't ask me to explain it though; all enquiries should be addressed to Prof. S. Hawking at Cambridge University.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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For those who say God did not create the known Universe and say that there is no known proof for this, there is the other side of the argument which will have supporters who will say that those holding the first view also have no known proof for their point of view. No-one can give any factual evidence one way or the other that is not just based upon theoretical discussions of even those of the very highest and learned level.

I am just happy to exist in the known Universe just as it is and to get on with my life.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Didn't some famous literary figure* in the 1960s once ask: "Who created God?"





*So famous that I can't remember who the quote is attributed to and a Google search to find who it was is hopeless because so many people now debate that very point so they all come up in the results...:roll:
 

SS4

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Even if the Big Bang is proved incorrect it does not automatically render the Biblical story true. Indeed, we can change the subject and ask who created God?

The residual microwave radiation and redshift point to an incredibly (in the literal sense) hot and dense singularity. Although it is still not known how this heat came to be since heat is a form of energy it follows that mass can be created from energy.
In space today there is thought to be a vacuum state where energy is borrowed to create a particle/antiparticle pair and then immediately "paid" back by annihilation (indeed the prevalence of matter of anti-matter in this universe is a more interesting question than the universe's beginning), it's not implausible one of these interactions acted as a spark if you will causing a chain reaction which continues to this day.


tl;dr - even if science is wrong doesn't automatically make the Bible (or any other holy book for that matter) true
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Even if the Big Bang is proved incorrect it does not automatically render the Biblical story true. Indeed, we can change the subject and ask who created God?.....tl;dr - even if science is wrong doesn't automatically make the Bible (or any other holy book for that matter) true

My previous posting addressed this matter, from both perspectives.

By the way, on what day did God create Aston Villa FC...:D
 

SS4

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My previous posting addressed this matter, from both perspectives.

By the way, on what day did God create Aston Villa FC...:D

Yeah, I saw it. Just wanted to add my own perspective :lol:

Paul McGrath didn't sign for us until 1989 so we'd been around for ages before God joined us :p
 

Oswyntail

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Even if the Big Bang is proved incorrect it does not automatically render the Biblical story true.....
Though it is, of course, possible that the Bible Story is true;) As Paul has said, there is tiddly squit real evidence either way
 

Greenback

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For those who say God did not create the known Universe and say that there is no known proof for this, there is the other side of the argument which will have supporters who will say that those holding the first view also have no known proof for their point of view. No-one can give any factual evidence one way or the other that is not just based upon theoretical discussions of even those of the very highest and learned level.

I think it's fair to say that today's theories about the creation of the cosmos may well end up being regarded as just about as primitive as the idea that the Earth is flat, and that gods live in the sky watching over us all.

Suffice to say that our beliefs are heavily influenced by our current environment and knowledge of it. We may think we ar ehighly advanced, but that may not be the case. Who knows what discoveries are yet to be made.

I am just happy to exist in the known Universe just as it is and to get on with my life.

Amen to that! All this deep thinking makes my head hurt!
 

Bungle73

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The "Big Bang Theory" is just that, a theory, and, as such, one should expect it to be proved incorrect.
Um why? All the evidence suggests the Big Bang Theory is what happened.

And the question "what was there before the Big Bang" is meaningless since at the Big Bang time was created as well so there was no "before". That's what Einstein said anyway.

Oh, and people did not used to believe the Earth was flat; that's a myth.
 

wintonian

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It originated from some entity (possibly a chicken or perhaps an egg ;)), sentient or otherwise.

Beyond that I leave it to each individual to find find their own answer whether through faith or through scientific exploration because I don't have a clue beyond this. ;)

But I believe there is a nice restaurant at the end where you can watch the universe exploded - which is of-course impossible.

[youtube]?v=0_xI_83_Qs4[/youtube]
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Oh, and people did not used to believe the Earth was flat; that's a myth.

The Middle Ages had many premises which were eventually found to be incorrect. Was not Galileo severely censured for suggesting that the Earth orbited the Sun, when common belief at that time was that the Earth was the centre around which all matters orbited ?
 

90019

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Um why? All the evidence suggests the Big Bang Theory is what happened.
None of which is conclusive, and it could be proved wrong at any time if evidence against it comes to light.
And the question "what was there before the Big Bang" is meaningless since at the Big Bang time was created as well so there was no "before". That's what Einstein said anyway.
With the certainty that you say that, I take it you must either have been back there to see it for yourself, or have some very compelling evidence that you've not shared with the scientific community.
Just because something is the current accepted theory does not mean it is necessarily the correct one. Something you demonstrate rather well with the final part of your post:
Oh, and people did not used to believe the Earth was flat; that's a myth.
Indeed, all the evidence they had at the time suggested that it was flat. New evidence came to light which showed that it wasn't.

The big bang theory may be a myth too, there's no way to know for certain either way with the current evidence that we have.
 

Bungle73

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The Middle Ages had many premises which were eventually found to be incorrect. Was not Galileo severely censured for suggesting that the Earth orbited the Sun, when common belief at that time was that the Earth was the centre around which all matters orbited ?
I think we're a bit more advanced, and know more about the Universe, than they did then.

Try tellingl that to these people; theflatearthsociety.org ;)
Come across them before. I'm still trying to work out if it's one big troll.

None of which is conclusive, and it could be proved wrong at any time if evidence against it comes to light.
So where is the evidence that the BBT is going to disproved? The comment I replied to said we should "expect" it to disproved. The BTT has been around for decades, and so far all the evidence we have gathered supports it.

With the certainty that you say that, I take it you must either have been back there to see it for yourself, or have some very compelling evidence that you've not shared with the scientific community.
Just because something is the current accepted theory does not mean it is necessarily the correct one. Something you demonstrate rather well with the final part of your post:
Einstein's theory of relativity has never been proven wrong; and in fact it has been tested and has passed those tests.

Indeed, all the evidence they had at the time suggested that it was flat. New evidence came to light which showed that it wasn't.
Eratosthenes proved the Earth was round in 240BC, so the evidence was there.

The big bang theory may be a myth too, there's no way to know for certain either way with the current evidence that we have.
Pretty much all scientists are in agreement that it is what happened. Don't be misled by the word "theory". A good scientific theory is backed up by extensive factual evidence, and is about as real as anything can get in science.
 

Oswyntail

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Um why? All the evidence suggests the Big Bang Theory is what happened.
Because a) most theories prove incorrect, and those that don't usually do in time and b) there is no evidence of what happened, merely logical extrapolation from observation of consequent events.

And the question "what was there before the Big Bang" is meaningless since at the Big Bang time was created as well so there was no "before". That's what Einstein said anyway.
As I said before, I suspect there is a horrible tangle at the centre of Einstein's theories because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of time
 

Bungle73

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Because a) most theories prove incorrect, and those that don't usually do in time and
You appear to know something the rest of us, and the greatest minds of the 20th and 21st centuries don't. What is it? The BBT was first postulated in 1929 - almost a hundred years ago- nothing credible has come about to challenge it.
b) there is no evidence of what happened, merely logical extrapolation from observation of consequent events.
I don't think you know what evidence is.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_evidence_supports_the_big_bang_theory
As I said before, I suspect there is a horrible tangle at the centre of Einstein's theories because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of time
So you think you know better than arguably the greatest mind of the 20th century? As I said before his theory of relativity has been been tested, and has passed those tests.
 

90019

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So where is the evidence that the BBT is going to disproved?
Where is the evidence that it won't be?
The comment I replied to said we should "expect" it to disproved. The BTT has been around for decades, and so far all the evidence we have gathered supports it.
But that does not mean it will not be disproved in the future.
Pretty much all scientists are in agreement that it is what happened.
Source, please.

Regardless, lots of people agreeing on something does not make it so, without having conclusive evidence to back it up. Which, in this instance, we do not have.
A good scientific theory is backed up by extensive factual evidence, and is about as real as anything can get in science.
But until proven, it is not necessarily correct.
You appear to know something the rest of us, and the greatest minds of the 20th and 21st centuries don't. What is it?
What is it you know that makes the hypothesis of the big bang theory correct?
The BBT was first postulated in 1929 - almost a hundred years ago- nothing credible has come about to challenge it.
So, a theory that is unchallenged is automatically the correct one?
Note how it is evidence that supports the big bang theory, not evidence that proves it.
As I said before his theory of relativity has been been tested, and has passed those tests.
Which bears no relevance to the big bang theory, which is what is being discussed.
 

Bungle73

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I'll be brief as I can't make a detailed reply as I'm on my iPad and trying to watch the Grand Prix.

I like the way people on Internet forums who know nothing about science think they know better than people who spend their lives and careers studying this stuff, and who have the facilities available to them to study it.

Which bears no relevance to the big bang theory, which is what is being discussed.

Um, yes it does. Have you not been following the conversation?
 

Butts

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So it seems the answer is that there is no answer at least in the realms of our understanding !!

If there was a "big bang" as someone mentioned what was there to create that ?

If you start with nothing how can you create anything ?

Perhaps Dr Who would have the answer :p
 

90019

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I like the way people on Internet forums who know nothing about science
I like how some people on internet forums assume the level of knowledge others have.
Um, yes it does. Have you not been following the conversation?
Einstein being correct about the theory of relativity, doesn't mean he's right about everything.


You talk with such certainty about the big bang theory being correct, so you must clearly have some evidence that shows it for certain to be true?

The reality is that we currently have no means of proving for certain one way or another whether the big bang theory is really what happened. Whilst it is currently the accepted theory, but that doesn't mean it won't be superceded in the future by something else.
The question of 'What was there before the big bang?' is perfectly valid, since we can't know for sure if there was or wasn't anything beforehand.
 

Bungle73

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I like how some people on internet forums assume the level of knowledge others have.
I go by what I read, which is a bunch of people poo pooing something, that is generally accepted to be true by the people in the know, like they know something they don't

Einstein being correct about the theory of relativity, doesn't mean he's right about everything.
But the theory of relativity is what we were talking about and is what is relevant here.

You talk with such certainty about the big bang theory being correct, so you must clearly have some evidence that shows it for certain to be true?
I talk with the certainty of decades of research and observation.

Let's go back to what started this debate: someone saying that they "expect" the BBT to be disproved. How can anyone say they expect something to happen unless they know about something which would make that scenario come about?

The BBT has been around since 1929 and so far nothing has been discovered to dispute it, and all the evidence gathered strongly supports that's how it happened.

You cannot dispute something like that unless you have some new information that casts doubt on it, which no one here has.


The reality is that we currently have no means of proving for certain one way or another whether the big bang theory is really what happened. Whilst it is currently the accepted theory, but that doesn't mean it won't be superceded in the future by something else.
Maybe, but it's not looking that way. We know more about the Universe than we ever have and the BBT is still the front runner for an explanation as to how every began.
The question of 'What was there before the big bang?' is perfectly valid, since we can't know for sure if there was or wasn't anything beforehand.
There wasn't anything. Everything we know was created at the moment of the BB, including time.
 

michael769

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If there was a "big bang" as someone mentioned what was there to create that ?

Time itself began with the big bang, so there was no before for anything to exist in.

If you start with nothing how can you create anything ?

The real question is how was time started? The answer to that will probably also answer yours.

One hypothesis is that it was caused when two alternate realities collided in a higher dimension and that time (and everything else) is effectivly the debris of that collision.

An older hypothesis is that te universe eventually collapses under gravity into a "big crunch" that triggers a new big bang, and we exist in what is an endless cycle of expansion and contraction.

In reality as we cannot percieve or measure what exists outside time it is unlikely that we will ever be able to find out unless there is some as yet undiscovered fundamental physics that will enable it.
 

90019

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I talk with the certainty of decades of research and observation.
None of which has conclusively proved the big bang theory.
Let's go back to what started this debate: someone saying that they "expect" the BBT to be disproved. How can anyone say they expect something to happen unless they know about something which would make that scenario come about?
How can you say it isn't going to be disproved?
The BBT has been around since 1929 and so far nothing has been discovered to dispute it, and all the evidence gathered strongly supports that's how it happened.
Exactly - the evidence supports it, it does not prove it.

Just because it's been around a long time doesn't mean it won't be disproved, just that the resources available so far aren't sufficent to gather the evidence to disprove it.
You cannot dispute something like that unless you have some new information that casts doubt on it, which no one here has.
But you can dispute it - that's the whole point of science, to question and test what is accepted as well as new ideas, and to try to expand our knowledge.
Maybe, but it's not looking that way. We know more about the Universe than we ever have and the BBT is still the front runner for an explanation as to how every began.
We know more than ever, but still don't know very much in the grand scheme of things.
We may suddenly discover something that does disprove the big bang theory, meaning we have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new hypothesis. If no one bothers to question it, how could we ever achieve that?

Would you prefer if everybody just accepted the current theories as gospel and nobody attempted to disprove them anymore?
There wasn't anything. Everything we know was created at the moment of the BB, including time.
And you know this for certain because...?
 

Bungle73

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None of which has conclusively proved the big bang theory.
Everything points to it being true. Unless you can bring something new to the table that hasn't been considered trying to dispute it is pointless.

How can you say it isn't going to be disproved?
I never said that. The point I made was that arbitrarily stating that it's only matter of time before it's dis-proven, based on no evidence whatsoever is ridiculous.

Exactly - the evidence supports it, it does not prove it.

Here's a piece of text I found that sums it up very nicely:

In everyday use, 'theory' means 'an educated guess' (or sometimes 'a wild guess'). In science a theory is the end result of the scientific process, and is what happens when you gather supporting evidence for a hypothesis. It is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena. Theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses.

The big bang theory is a well-supported theory, a structural explanatory framework that incorporates the evidence we have at hand into an organized explanation of the beginning of the universe.

So yes, it is 'proven' (in everyday terms) well beyond any reasonable doubt.

Just because it's been around a long time doesn't mean it won't be disproved, just that the resources available so far aren't sufficent to gather the evidence to disprove it.
It seems to me that you're never going to believe it. Maybe because you don't want to?

The fact that it's been around for nearly 100 years and no one has come up with anything else to challenge it says all that need to be said.

But you can dispute it - that's the whole point of science, to question and test what is accepted as well as new ideas, and to try to expand our knowledge.
Um, that's not how science works at all: to try picking holes in established science just for the sake of it.

Scientific theories get changed, or re-evaluated when new evidence comes to light, or others put forward real ideas that challenge them. No one here has done that.

We know more than ever, but still don't know very much in the grand scheme of things.
We may suddenly discover something that does disprove the big bang theory, meaning we have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new hypothesis. If no one bothers to question it, how could we ever achieve that?

Would you prefer if everybody just accepted the current theories as gospel and nobody attempted to disprove them anymore?
I'd prefer if actually brought new ideas to the table instead of pulling science apart because they think they should. This is exactly the same argument as I have with anti-evolutionists and anti-vaccine people. People who have no idea at all about science or how it works using arguments that make no sense, or are based on misconceptions, or trying to make out scientists don't know what they're talking about, when that's so far from being the case it's ridiculous.
And you know this for certain because...?
Because it's what evidence seems to show.
 
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If you discount the Biblical version of events may I pose the following question.......

If there was nothing there in the first place, how could there have been anything there to create anything ?

The Big Bang started the arrow of time. The idea that there is a passage of time and that things go from what thing to another.
 

90019

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Everything points to it being true. Unless you can bring something new to the table that hasn't been considered trying to dispute it is pointless.
Again, everything pointing to it being true isn't the same as it definitely being true.
I never said that. The point I made was that arbitrarily stating that it's only matter of time before it's dis-proven, based on no evidence whatsoever is ridiculous.
No more rediculous than stating for certain that there was nothing before the big bang.
It seems to me that you're never going to believe it. Maybe because you don't want to?
Actually, I believe that the big bang theory is probably correct.
However, I'm also open to the idea that it may not be, and that there is the possiblity that we may discover something that totally changes our viewpoint on what happened. If no one bothers to question it, how will we ever know?
The fact that it's been around for nearly 100 years and no one has come up with anything else to challenge it says all that need to be said.
So everybody should just accept that it must be correct because it's been around for a long time?
Um, that's not how science works at all: to try picking holes in established science just for the sake of it.
So if there's no alternative theory, we must believe the current one is the correct one?
Anyway, if holes can be picked in the theory, then perhaps that's because there are flaws in it.
I'd prefer if actually brought new ideas to the table instead of pulling science apart because they think they should.
Now you're putting words in my mouth.
At no point have I said there shouldn't be new ideas brought to the table.
My opinion is quite the opposite - new ideas should be brought to the table, and the currently accepted ones should be tested to see if they can still stand up. We shouldn't just dismiss new ideas because the current one is what people accept to be true.
Because it's what evidence seems to show.
facepalm.gif


It seems to show is not the same as it does show.

We do not know what happened before the big bang, we can only hypothesise with the evidence we currently have.
 
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