Future of the Intercity 125s

[tbtc]

The MML? I thought that electrifying that would mean IEPs for it. Buying IEPs for ECML, only to move the IC225s to the MML seems a bit pointless to me. It's no better than the earlier suggestion of putting them on the GWML.

I'd love to see IEP, but am not aware of any plans for it on the MML (or any "brand new" stock), hence wondering whether 225s may fit (take away the Corby diagrams though)

 

[Zoe]

I'd love to see IEP, but am not aware of any plans for it on the MML (or any "brand new" stock), hence wondering whether 225s may fit (take away the Corby diagrams though)

As far as I know, the only additional options available in the IEP contract are GW Plymouth/Penzance, EC 225 replacement and WC Northampton. Any other orders would have to go to tender thorughout the EU so it wouldn't be a case of just ordering IEP units.

 

[tbtc]

As far as I know, the only additional options available in the IEP contract are GW Plymouth/Penzance, EC 225 replacement and WC Northampton. Any other orders would have to go to tender thorughout the EU so it wouldn't be a case of just ordering IEP units.

Agreed - even Kings Lynn has been taken off the "who shall we order IEP for" list

 

[Goatboy]

Is it really the dominant sphere of influence in the South West though? Plymouth was important due to the naval base but as time goes on this is becoming less significant and these days Exeter may well be considered the city with the most influence. If a company is planning to relocate from the South East and they had the choice of Exeter or Plymouth I expect that they would choose Exeter.

Exactly, all the more reason to not accelerate this decline by reducing rail service! That was my entire point in saying it needs all the help it can get. It needs to attract more business not less and making further transport cuts will make this all but impossible.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have never said that it should have it's direct service cut, rather that it should be run by 222's between the IC125's and whenever bi-model trains are cleared to there and/or when it is joined to the electric network.

My point was against whoever it was who said all the direct services should stop at Exeter and passengers should change onto a DMU to reach Plymouth.

 

[Zoe]

Exactly, all the more reason to not accelerate this decline by reducing rail service! That was my entire point in saying it needs all the help it can get.

But services will only run if there is demand for them and it seems that there is more demand for services from Exeter. Plymouth no longer has demand to justify an airport. For the record I wasn't suggesting that all direct services from London to Plymouth would be withdrawn, only that if the wires were to end at Exeter then the current Plymouth terminating services could be cut back to Exeter to save running diesels under the wires or carting diesel engines around for all but the last 50 miles. If you are not going to start terminating a significant number of services at Exeter then it's a bit pointless ending the wires there as very few services would go over to full EMU operation as a result. The Penznace services would still serve Plymouth either with HSTs or 222s.

 

[LE Greys]

Yes it would be odd having 140 mph trains on a line where the maximum speed is 100 mph

Which is going up to 110, AIUI. I would hope for 125 in the future (which might give a reason for 91s to replace 90s, although I reckon 90s are technically-capable of 125) but that would rely on quadrupling to Colchester.

The MML was under consideration back in 1991, when (according to John Prideux) IC250 was supposed to take over on the ECML by 1997 :roll: .

 

[Manchester77]

The GEML is an awkward line IMO
If we upgrade it there's a chance that parts of it will be underwater in years to come so short term good long term potentially not so good.

 

[Goatboy]

But services will only run if there is demand for them and it seems that there is more demand for services from Exeter.

I'm really not sure on what basis you come to this conclusion. Certainly from travelling on these trains it is not my experience that they empty at Exeter on the way down and become wedged upon calling at Exeter on the way up. Exeter St Davids consistenly has less passenger entry/exits per year than Plymouth.

Plymouth no longer has demand to justify an airport.

This is hugely more complicated than that simple statement. Plymouth no longer had enough demand for turboprop regional flights to justify an airport that offered only this. To be honest, virtually nowhere has enough demand to sustain that. Build an airport in the middle of London that could only take turboprop regional flights and it'd suffer from lack of demand let alone somewhere like Devon.

Exeter got there first with the ability to take jet aircraft (primarily due to its out of town location versus Plymouth) and typically you don't need international airports every 30 miles so that was that. Had Plymouth got there first with the facilities required for a proper international airport then I'd imagine Exeter now wouldn't have one. Many of the passengers using Exeter airport - due to the services it offers - originate from West of Exeter.

For the record I wasn't suggesting that all direct services from London to Plymouth would be withdrawn, only that if the wires were to end at Exeter then the current Plymouth terminating services could be cut back to Exeter to save running diesels under the wires or carting diesel engines around for all but the last 50 miles. If you are not going to start terminating a significant number of services at Exeter then it's a bit pointless ending the wires there as very few services would go over to full EMU operation as a result. The Penznace services would still serve Plymouth either with HSTs or 222s.

It's pointless ending the wires at Exeter full stop. If you are going to the trouble of going as far as Exeter, you might as well go as far as Plymouth. If you don't want to go as far as Plymouth, there is little point going as far as Exeter. Remember, Plymouth is much better equipped to handle terminating services than Exeter and has a full-scale TMD nearby too. We'd quite quickly run out of space at Exeter.

Plus, the political opposition would be significant which is why I went into the transport link things. I don't think the lack of a motorway or a cruddy regional airport is a particular issue for the city but the public perception is that it is. A reduction in the quality of rail service the city has would be the straw that broke the camels back both politically and in terms of business west of Exeter. Plymouth needs - and in my opinion currently (almost, if we ignore the overcrowding issues on Voyagers which you think don't exist as only 2 people ever use a train from Plymouth, as they all live in Exeter, a city of half the population ) receives a good quality rail service.

My view isn't 'woe is Plymouth, we need electric trains'. Quite the opposite - I don't think it's economically worthwhile to provide electric trains from Plymouth to Paddington. But neither do I think it's worth providing them from Exeter. Or Westbury. I'd rather the money was spent on other things. Like perhaps ridding long distance FGW services of the 150's which currently infest them.

It would seem the powers that be have a similar viewpoint as electrification to Exeter seems not to even be on the radar let alone an actual plan.

 

[Eagle]

I'd love to see IEP, but am not aware of any plans for it on the MML (or any "brand new" stock), hence wondering whether 225s may fit (take away the Corby diagrams though)

What would you have run Corby then?

 

[tbtc]

What would you have run Corby then?

The reason for excluding Corby was that there wouldn't be enough 225 sets to run the GA Norwich services and all of the EMT St Pancras services, so Corby was the easiest one to "miss" to make the numbers add up.

Since a long Thameslink train would probably be overkill (and potentially make things less reliable through the Thameslink "core") I'd suggest Corby - London gets something equivalent to what Northampton - London gets (i.e. 350s)

 

[The Ham]

I'm really not sure on what basis you come to this conclusion. Certainly from travelling on these trains it is not my experience that they empty at Exeter on the way down and become wedged upon calling at Exeter on the way up. Exeter St Davids consistenly has less passenger entry/exits per year than Plymouth.

Although there are more entries at Plymouth (1.2 million) than Exeter St David's (1.13 million) Exeter Central (which is close enough that very few people would travel between the two) has entries of 0.83 million, giving Exeter a combined total of nearly 2 million.

 

[Goatboy]

Although there are more entries at Plymouth (1.2 million) than Exeter St David's (1.13 million) Exeter Central (which is close enough that very few people would travel between the two) has entries of 0.83 million, giving Exeter a combined total of nearly 2 million.

Some people do travel between the two - and Central serves the local commuter market which Plymouth doesn't really have because it's commuter rail service is poor (mostly as a result of the location of the stations and historically reasonably infrequent service). Many people commute to and from stations to Exmouth which will account for a huge proportion of the entries/exits at Central. You don't often begin an IC journey at Central.

For the purposes of Intercity travel it is relevent to use EXD v PLY and the entry/exit figures would support the empirical evidence from travelling on this route often that more IC journeys are made to and from Plymouth than to and from Exeter. As you'd expect given there are twice as many people in Plymouth.

 

[Xavi]

I'm really not sure on what basis you come to this conclusion. Certainly from travelling on these trains it is not my experience that they empty at Exeter on the way down and become wedged upon calling at Exeter on the way up. Exeter St Davids consistenly has less passenger entry/exits per year than Plymouth.



This is hugely more complicated than that simple statement. Plymouth no longer had enough demand for turboprop regional flights to justify an airport that offered only this. To be honest, virtually nowhere has enough demand to sustain that. Build an airport in the middle of London that could only take turboprop regional flights and it'd suffer from lack of demand let alone somewhere like Devon.

Exeter got there first with the ability to take jet aircraft (primarily due to its out of town location versus Plymouth) and typically you don't need international airports every 30 miles so that was that. Had Plymouth got there first with the facilities required for a proper international airport then I'd imagine Exeter now wouldn't have one. Many of the passengers using Exeter airport - due to the services it offers - originate from West of Exeter.



It's pointless ending the wires at Exeter full stop. If you are going to the trouble of going as far as Exeter, you might as well go as far as Plymouth. If you don't want to go as far as Plymouth, there is little point going as far as Exeter. Remember, Plymouth is much better equipped to handle terminating services than Exeter and has a full-scale TMD nearby too. We'd quite quickly run out of space at Exeter.

Plus, the political opposition would be significant which is why I went into the transport link things. I don't think the lack of a motorway or a cruddy regional airport is a particular issue for the city but the public perception is that it is. A reduction in the quality of rail service the city has would be the straw that broke the camels back both politically and in terms of business west of Exeter. Plymouth needs - and in my opinion currently (almost, if we ignore the overcrowding issues on Voyagers which you think don't exist as only 2 people ever use a train from Plymouth, as they all live in Exeter, a city of half the population ) receives a good quality rail service.

My view isn't 'woe is Plymouth, we need electric trains'. Quite the opposite - I don't think it's economically worthwhile to provide electric trains from Plymouth to Paddington. But neither do I think it's worth providing them from Exeter. Or Westbury. I'd rather the money was spent on other things. Like perhaps ridding long distance FGW services of the 150's which currently infest them.

It would seem the powers that be have a similar viewpoint as electrification to Exeter seems not to even be on the radar let alone an actual plan.

Try adding entries / exits of the two main Exeter stations together and then you'll soon realise that demand for rail travel in Exeter is way higher than Plymouth. Particularly as there are virtually no sales for travel only between St Davids and Central.

Secondly, remember that a lot of passengers originating from Exmouth, Barnstaple and Teignmouth / Dawlish join London Paddington and Cross Country services at Exeter and they do not count as entries / exits at Exeter.

Thirdly, Exeter has the largest hinterland in Devon and Cornwall, not Plymouth. That's what counts for economic activity. Check the GDP per capita, retail sales etc, the numbers don't lie. Exeter is one of ten most profitable locations for business in the UK

Fourth, Exeter Airport has taken passenger jets since they became commonplace; it was not a case of 'getting there first' before Plymouth Airport. Exeter Airport is also very accessible from a huge geographical area (well beyond the hinterland) thanks to the A30 / A303 / A38 and M5 which all lead to its doorstep.

BUT rail services into Devon and Corwall will always serve both cities and the wider region too. That's why it's often full and standing out of Paddington the whole way to / from Exeter / Taunton and beyond in summer. Electrification will reach Exeter first, Plymouth later and, if we're lucky, eventually into Cornwall. That's why I think it will be the dreaded IEP bi-mode with the engines doing less of the work as the years progress.

I believe Newbury - Exeter will be CP6 along with Derby - Taunton / Severn Tunnel Jnc and Sheffield - Doncaster / Leeds. With the mileage to be electrified in CP5, unit costs will reduce in real terms and everyone will ask why we didn't do it years ago.

Finally squeezing Devon & Cornwall via Berks and Hants into 222s will NOT work whatever fancy diagramming someone comes up with. You'd have chaos the moment there was a delay with the splitting and turning round of half sets at Plymouth. And what happens in the summer months when extra services to the region are required Friday through Sunday? In recent years FGW has run nearly half hourly from 2pm - 7pm to Exeter throughout he week in peak summer plus another 2 services to Frome / Pewsey (continues to Bristol), and they don't just do it for fun!

All this talk that goes on suggesting this route can be the one mainline out of London that will never be worth upgrading / electrifying is complete nonsense, and as for sending all traffic via Bristol, don't go there!

 

[tbtc]

Quite a few people travel between the two - and Central serves the local commuter market which Plymouth doesn't really have because it's commuter rail service is poor (mostly as a result of the location of the stations and historically reasonably infrequent service)

Could that be because Exeter has a better commuter rail service because there are a lot more places "near" Exeter (Paignton etc) than there are "near" Plymouth?

Hence the use of just the city boundaries being meaningless (in the way that Nottingham looks quite small because the true city boundaries are only really the "inner city" of a bigger place).

 

[Xavi]

Some people do travel between the two - and Central serves the local commuter market which Plymouth doesn't really have because it's commuter rail service is poor (mostly as a result of the location of the stations and historically reasonably infrequent service). Many people commute to and from stations to Exmouth which will account for a huge proportion of the entries/exits at Central. You don't often begin an IC journey at Central.

For the purposes of Intercity travel it is relevent to use EXD v PLY and the entry/exit figures would support the empirical evidence from travelling on this route often that more IC journeys are made to and from Plymouth than to and from Exeter. As you'd expect given there are twice as many people in Plymouth.

Definitely not true that a lot of passengers travel only between Exeter Central and St Davids. You can walk between the two quicker than you can buy a ticket. There are though some journeys from further afield that change at St Davids for Central.

 

[Goatboy]

Try adding entries / exits of the two main Exeter stations together and then you'll soon realise that demand for rail travel in Exeter is way higher than Plymouth. Particularly as there are virtually no sales for travel only between St Davids and Central.

I beleive I've covered that above.

Thirdly, Exeter has the largest hinterland in Devon and Cornwall, not Plymouth. That's what counts for economic activity. Check the GDP per capita, retail sales etc, the numbers don't lie. Exeter is one of ten most profitable locations for business in the UK

Economy wise absolutely - you only need to look at John Lewis's decision to locate its first branch in the South West in Exeter to see where business thinks the money is.

My point all along is that if you further isolate Plymouth from the rest of the transport network you serve only to accelerate the relative demise versus Exeter, which is not appropriate IMHO.

Fourth, Exeter Airport has taken passenger jets since they became commonplace; it was not a case of 'getting there first' before Plymouth Airport.

It is - but I guess it's just semantics. My point stands which is Exeter Airport is more succesful and has more demand than Plymouth airport not because it is in Exeter but because it's a better, higher quality airport which serves better destinations. The location is better too - I was simply pointing out the reason why Plymouth airport closed is not because there is no demand for air travel West of Exeter, but because there is no demand for poor quality turboprop operated regional services and as a result even when Plymouth airport WAS open residents would drive to Exeter for flights anyway.

BUT rail services into Devon and Corwall will always serve both cities and the wider region too. That's why it's often full and standing out of Paddington the whole way to / from Exeter / Taunton and beyond in summer.

On this we agree

 

[Xavi]

Could that be because Exeter has a better commuter rail service because there are a lot more places "near" Exeter (Paignton etc) than there are "near" Plymouth?

Hence the use of just the city boundaries being meaningless (in the way that Nottingham looks quite small because the true city boundaries are only really the "inner city" of a bigger place).

Exactly - Exeter has largest hinterland west of Bristol.

 

[Goatboy]

Could that be because Exeter has a better commuter rail service because there are a lot more places "near" Exeter (Paignton etc) than there are "near" Plymouth?

Interesting you cite Paignton as being 'near' Exeter. In reality it is almost exactly the same distance from Paignton to Exeter than it is to Plymouth. I would therefore not be including the population of Paignton in any calculation of the population of Exeter Torbay is seperate from Exeter and is an urban area in its own right. It is not part of any definition of Exeter.

Happily the ONS are able to define urban areas for us and they place the population of the Exeter and Plymouth urban areas as follows:

Exeter 106k
Plymouth 243k

Torbay itself is listed seperately and is infact larger than Exeter at 110k.

Data from 2001 Cenus so it'll be interesting to see how things have changed when they release more from the 2011 one.

But the proximity of places like Exmouth in the first place will absolutely be a reason why it has a better commuter rail system, along with the fact that are no stations in Plymouth East of North Road station despite quite a lot of the city being spread in that direction. Geography again, I guess. Plus Tavistock which it isn't rail linked anymore anyway.

 

[Xavi]

I beleive I've covered that above.



Economy wise absolutely - you only need to look at John Lewis's decision to locate its first branch in the South West in Exeter to see where business thinks the money is.

My point all along is that if you further isolate Plymouth from the rest of the transport network you serve only to accelerate the relative demise versus Exeter, which is not appropriate IMHO.



It is - but I guess it's just semantics. My point stands which is Exeter Airport is more succesful and has more demand than Plymouth airport not because it is in Exeter but because it's a better, higher quality airport which serves better destinations. The location is better too - I was simply pointing out the reason why Plymouth airport closed is not because there is no demand for air travel West of Exeter, but because there is no demand for poor quality turboprop operated regional services and as a result even when Plymouth airport WAS open residents would drive to Exeter for flights anyway.



On this we agree

I think we agree on a great deal! I definitely don't want wires or trains to stop at Exeter. Neither City has the traffic volume alone to justify high frequency express services but together plus Taunton, South Devon, Cornwall and the catchment served by Tiverton Parkway, then you have a huge market that's ideal for rail travel to London and other regions.

 

[Goatboy]

I think we agree on a great deal! I definitely don't want wires or trains to stop at Exeter. Neither City has the traffic volume alone to justify high frequency express services but together plus Taunton, South Devon, Cornwall and the catchment served by Tiverton Parkway, then you have a huge market that's ideal for rail travel to London and other regions.

100% agreed

 

[tbtc]

Some people do travel between the two - and Central serves the local commuter market which Plymouth doesn't really have because it's commuter rail service is poor

Interesting you cite Paignton as being 'near' Exeter. In reality it is almost exactly the same distance from Paignton to Exeter than it is to Plymouth. I would therefore not be including the population of Paignton in any calculation of the population of Exeter Torbay is seperate from Exeter and is an urban area in its own right. It is not part of any definition of Exeter.

Since I was answering your point about the "local commuter market" I thought it relevant to include "places that Exeter has commuter trains to/from" in the Exeter total...

Since we are discussing the rail markets for Exeter/ Plymouth, the current data seems pretty relevant (like the fact that the two main Exeter stations have a higher combined figure) regardless of where the Office of National Statistics wants to draw their boundary.

If Paignton is equidistant between Plymouth and Exeter then I think it's significant that it has no direct train to Plymouth, which suggests that economically/ socially Exeter is more important to the Torbay area than Plymouth is (however the ONS want to define things).

How Exeter/ Plymouth compare in terms of commercial rents/ airports/ football teams/ nicest Wetherspoons is fairly irrelevant to the discussion about railway importance though. You can wire to Newbury/ Bristol and use diesels for all points west. You can draw the line at Exeter with diesels for Plymouth/ Cornwall. Or wire as far as Plymouth. Penzance even. But we aren't going to wire everything up any time soon, so we have to accept some kind of cut-off in the short/ medium term.

 

[sprinterguy]

How Exeter/ Plymouth compare in terms of commercial rents/ airports/ football teams/ nicest Wetherspoons is fairly irrelevant to the discussion about railway importance though.

Exeter has the better Wetherspoons, certainly the larger one I might not be able to talk about airports or the preferences of global busineses, but on the subject of Wetherspoons, I can be relied upon to be pretty definitive.

 

[Xavi]

Interesting you cite Paignton as being 'near' Exeter. In reality it is almost exactly the same distance from Paignton to Exeter than it is to Plymouth. I would therefore not be including the population of Paignton in any calculation of the population of Exeter Torbay is seperate from Exeter and is an urban area in its own right. It is not part of any definition of Exeter.

Happily the ONS are able to define urban areas for us and they place the population of the Exeter and Plymouth urban areas as follows:

Exeter 106k
Plymouth 243k

Torbay itself is listed seperately and is infact larger than Exeter at 110k.

Data from 2001 Cenus so it'll be interesting to see how things have changed when they release more from the 2011 one.

But the proximity of places like Exmouth in the first place will absolutely be a reason why it has a better commuter rail system, along with the fact that are no stations in Plymouth East of North Road station despite quite a lot of the city being spread in that direction. Geography again, I guess. Plus Tavistock which it isn't rail linked anymore anyway.

Exeter population is now 120k and by definition has a larger hinterland than either Torbay or Plymouth. Like you say, that's because of the proximity of the likes of Crediton, Tiverton, Exmouth, Dawlish, Cullompton, Sidmouth etc.

http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadKeyFigures.do;jsessionid=49p5QllC36vxbJTxBQ2hjz9C1LyGP9K2z3pLnmzV0pLy3hLy97H8!-465030689!1353016738599?a=7&b=276927&c=Exeter&d=13&e=13&g=436241&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1353016738599&enc=1&nsjs=true&nsck=true&nssvg=false&nswid=980

You'll also find that there is a huge commuter flow into Exeter from Torbay, but not he other way.

 

[Nym]

Build an airport in the middle of London that could only take turboprop regional flights and it'd suffer from lack of demand let alone somewhere like Devon.

(It's fun when I don't even need to write words...)

 

[Goatboy]

(It's fun when I don't even need to write words...)

London City Airport is capable of hosting international jet powered flights and is not limited only to turboprops to other parts of the UK It would soon lose all it's passengers if it was!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Paignton is equidistant between Plymouth and Exeter then I think it's significant that it has no direct train to Plymouth

The Torbay trains connect with trains to Plymouth, quite a lot of the reason for not having direct trains from Torbay to Plymouth is that it would require a reversal at Newton Abbot and would miss out Teignmouth and Dawlish, makes more sense to run them from Paignton to Exmouth and return instead with decent connections at Newton Abbot for stations to Penzance, which is exactly what we currently have. Having to change trains with a 5-10 minute connection on a local trip from Plymouth to Torquay is no big deal and to the passenger feels nothing like the idea of not having as many direct trains to London...

. You can wire to Newbury/ Bristol and use diesels for all points west. You can draw the line at Exeter with diesels for Plymouth/ Cornwall. Or wire as far as Plymouth. Penzance even. But we aren't going to wire everything up any time soon, so we have to accept some kind of cut-off in the short/ medium term.

Exactly - my point is not that Plymouth should get wires, its that if it's decided that it shouldn't then frankly there is no point wiring from Reading to Westbury. That section of line either needs to be done completely (Well, as far as Plymouth) or not at all. Not at all (or 'not in the near future') would seem like the best choice economically.

My points in this thread are against the concept of wiring only as far as Exeter and then expecting people to change trains. It is this I disagree with, not the idea that most of Devon won't get wires anytime soon.

Frankly there is a risk of Electric overkill if we are not careful anyway. Whilst a utopian railway where every square inch was wired would be nice in the ideal world, in the real world it cannot and arguably should not happen. At the end of the day despite the long term cost advantages it is the passengers who are going to be expected to pay for much of the massive capital investment required. Wire the main high density routes, leave the rest to diesel until somebody trips over a hidden barrel of money or something.

 

[transmanche]

London City Airport is capable of hosting international jet powered flights and is not limited only to turboprops to other parts of the UK

Indeed, you can fly on a business-class only service to New York JFK from City Airport. Although as the plane can't carry enough fuel for the journey and take off (due to the short runway and steep climb), it has to stop at Shannon to refuel.[*] (Travelling the other way, it can fly non-stop.)


[*] With the added advantage that passengers can clear US customs & immigration during the refuelling stop.

 

[The Ham]

Finally squeezing Devon & Cornwall via Berks and Hants into 222s will NOT work whatever fancy diagramming someone comes up with. You'd have chaos the moment there was a delay with the splitting and turning round of half sets at Plymouth. And what happens in the summer months when extra services to the region are required Friday through Sunday? In recent years FGW has run nearly half hourly from 2pm - 7pm to Exeter throughout he week in peak summer plus another 2 services to Frome / Pewsey (continues to Bristol), and they don't just do it for fun!

All this talk that goes on suggesting this route can be the one mainline out of London that will never be worth upgrading / electrifying is complete nonsense, and as for sending all traffic via Bristol, don't go there!

The 222's would be able to leave London and get to Plymouth quicker than the IC125's currently do because they have power doors which reduce dwell times and faster acceleration (due to the power being put down over more wheels). That would then mean even allowing a few minutes to split the train at Plymouth the journey time into Cornwall would be the same if not faster.

The spare portion then sits in Plymouth for a few minutes while the train from Cornwall comes and joins it (having passed the up service between the bridge and the station), then the newly doubled up service runs back to London and even with the short wait to couple up it still reaches London within the same time as it would have done using IC125's.

Also services to Exeter are likely to be run with IEP (which if are run as 5 coaches doubled up have much higher capacity) to begin with, possibly even running to Plymouth and beyond as and when that becomes viable.

There is already talk of extending the electrification to Westbury (http://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/news/10047421.MP_welcomes_rail_line_improvement_analysis/) to ensure the direct services from places like Bedwyn to London are maintained (i.e. to happen at a similar time to the rest of the GWML). As such I would expect wire beyond Westbury to follow fairly quickly and IEP to be cleared to beyond Exeter almost as soon as it is known what that entails.

Electrification of the main line services within GW maybe a little slow in being a complete package, but is likely to be done by the time the 22x's life expire in 2030 (ish) but if not, certainly by the time the first bi-model IEP's reach the end of their 27.5 year contract (2044).

 

[Goatboy]

How do you turn around a unit like that in a few minutes? Presumably by not bothering to clean it after it's journey down from London?

 

[Yew]

faster acceleration (due to being overpowered and thirsty). .

Fixed that for you

 

[RAGNARØKR]

I think we agree on a great deal! I definitely don't want wires or trains to stop at Exeter.

Electrification west of Exeter will have to contend with this at Dawlish at high tide when the wind is from the south-east. Video