Passengers who refuse to allow others to sit next to them

[6Gman]

If a muslim woman used that excuse on me, I think I'd go mental.

It angers me so much when people use their religious beliefs (all of which are complete twaddle in my opinion, but that's for another thread on another site) for their own advantage, and think that just because they "feel it", everybody else has to respect it.

One ticket = one seat. End of discussion. If you don't like it, buy a car.

For me, it would depend on how she expressed her concerns.

"You can't sit next to me, I'm a Muslim" wouldn't get very far ...

BUT

"I'm sorry, but my religious beliefs are such that I shouldn't sit with a man who is not a family member - would you possibly mind sitting over there" would probably prompt a 'no problem' from me.

But if it was the last free seat, then she'd have to be the one negotiating a move around!

 

[DiscoStu]

I don't think the OP (or any other contributor to this thread) has offered any convincing evidence that a specific segment of society is habitually refusing to have someone sit next to them on a train for religious reasons, and the direction this thread is taking is a little disturbing.

I think that's exactly what the OP is stating ...

"... with the exception of muslim women who refuse to because some won't sit next to men."

He's stating that muslim women ARE refusing to move because they won't sit next to men. And on that basis, I'm not surprised at all by the direction this thread is taking.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think it's very likely that many muslim ladies are asking people to do this. It's rather more likely to be a myth being spread by some people to incite hatred (and then passed on quite innocently by others).

It's like a number of times when ahead of the football, we've been told (and I bet every town has had its variant) that a pub has been ordered to take down England flags so as not to offend <insert group here>. It's never true, obviously, but people take it as fact and then start to get angry and say 'Well, let's make sure we put up more flags to show them we don't care what they think' and 'If they don't like it, they can go home' etc. In fact, it's quite amazing how quickly people can show their true colours over stuff like this.

I am not sure how I'd react if someone really did ask me not sit next to them for religious reasons, but whatever was said either way would merely be between me and that person - not an entire race or religion.

I did once get into an argument (well, more a discussion with me asking lots of questions) with a Christian trying to convert people on the train. He never lost his cool, but just repeated the same stuff over and over again. He did manage to quite effectively get people to move away from him though, so perhaps he was using some clever reverse psychology; 'Please my child, come sit next to me and let me tell you about Jesus'...

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I wonder what you mean by "should" in this extract.
Perhaps you are referring to a statute (or similar) which imposes certain constraints on citizens, or, perhaps, you are simply expressing a personal preference or belief.

If the former, then it would be a help me if you could remind us which statute requires a personal belief to "fit around the general public" and "one law for all".
If the latter, then I apologise for for the challenge, but if you are content to express a personal view about how others express their beliefs of what is true (which you have done), and also claim "one law for all", then I'll guess that you are also content that others will express their personal view about how others express theirs. That position, of course, leads to pluralism - differing beliefs pertaining simultaneously to the same life, fact, situation or statement.

For my part, I have every respect for any expression of profound faith, and have enjoyed the unexpected company of fellow travellers on some of my railway journeys who have shared their beliefs and faiths with me, much to my benefit. I hope I am lucky enough to still meet more people with such profound and committed beliefs and faiths who are generous enough to share some of their philosophy and their experiences with me.

As for seats, I remember giving up my seat earler this year so that I could travel in the vestibule with a Rabbi who was kind enough to share some of his photos, stories and practices with me. Over the years, I've given up my seat in order to talk with a Tibetan Buddhist, some Catholics, some Hindus, a CofE vicar and athiests (and also enjoying profound discussion with others while remainging at my seat - perhaps the most surprising was one of East Coast's crew discussing the "Tibetan Book of the Dead"). But I can't recall any of them telling me what passengers "should do".
Not one.

There are constraints on everyone who uses the railways as per the rules, regulations and byelaws and although I agree that people should be allowed to hold thier own personal beliefs. however distorted I may personally think they may be compared to my own, not every aspect of religious nonsense can be accomadated on a mass public tranport system. Set the rules and then we can all all abide by them - I do not want to be subject to anyone else's religious fascism when I use public tranpsort.

 

[Coolguy22468]

I don't think it's very likely that many muslim ladies are asking people to do this. It's rather more likely to be a myth being spread by some people to incite hatred (and then passed on quite innocently by others).

It's like a number of times when ahead of the football, we've been told (and I bet every town has had its variant) that a pub has been ordered to take down England flags so as not to offend <insert group here>. It's never true, obviously, but people take it as fact and then start to get angry and say 'Well, let's make sure we put up more flags to show them we don't care what they think' and 'If they don't like it, they can go home' etc. In fact, it's quite amazing how quickly people can show their true colours over stuff like this.

I am not sure how I'd react if someone really did ask me not sit next to them for religious reasons, but whatever was said either way would merely be between me and that person - not an entire race or religion.

I did once get into an argument (well, more a discussion with me asking lots of questions) with a Christian trying to convert people on the train. He never lost his cool, but just repeated the same stuff over and over again. He did manage to quite effectively get people to move away from him though, so perhaps he was using some clever reverse psychology; 'Please my child, come sit next to me and let me tell you about Jesus'...

It is not a myth, it happens to me and other passengers occasionally, I don't have a problem with people following a certain faith and most muslim women are ok with men sitting next to them its just a select few who take up 2 seats on a train when there is a large amount of passengers who have to stand and I was wanting some advice if passengers are allowed to do this.

 

[Flamingo]

It is not a myth, it happens to me and other passengers occasionally, I don't have a problem with people following a certain faith and most muslim women are ok with men sitting next to them its just a select few who take up 2 seats on a train when there is a large amount of passengers who have to stand and I was wanting some advice if passengers are allowed to do this.

Short answer is no, they are not. Train crew could be asked to intervene, if it was my train I certainly would.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

If no-one is claiming ownership of a bag, then I'd much rather be delayed then injured/killed.

That's a very reasonable viewpoint.

 

[Roverman]

Another thing to consider, what if the person sat down is a customer 'of size' and takes up their seat and some of the next? Should they be expected to pay a 2nd fare?

 

[Coolguy22468]

Another thing to consider, what if the person sat down is a customer 'of size' and takes up their seat and some of the next? Should they be expected to pay a 2nd fare?

That is a good question.

 

[Flamingo]

Another thing to consider, what if the person sat down is a customer 'of size' and takes up their seat and some of the next? Should they be expected to pay a 2nd fare?

I know some airlines do it, but it's not enforceable on the railway yet, as far as I know.

I have had customers of a certain size try (unsuccesfuly) to blag a free first Class upgrade as "I need a big seat and won't fit in one", but I have always found them a double seat they can have to themselves (much to their disgust).

 

[MCR247]

I feel sorry for people that have to do that

 

[corfield]

I'm with sqauddie on this. No evidence or detail for this such heinous practice just scaremongering and some very thinly disguised prejudice behind barely suppressed enthusiasm to condemn other people in a fit of righteous indignation.

This entire thread reads wrong from the start. The answer to the question "Can Muslim women take multiple seats for religious reasons" is so obviously "No", and the answer to "what should I do" is so obviously "a) be polite and b) speak to the TM/Guard/TOC staff"; that one has to suspect the motivations of the person posing the question and fanning such indignation.

Or should we all just agree that this is yet more evidence of how evil Muslims/religious/people with different views to us are?, and how we should never have to suffer even the slightest inconvenience to accommodate others beliefs or preferences? other of course than those same other people who have to unconditionally accept ours.

As mentioned, we used to have separate waiting rooms for men and women, and I suspect one definition of a gentleman was someone who wouldn't dream of troubling any woman travelling alone (especially a good Christian woman) by sitting next to her, and who could be expected to have the strength of mind and body to just stand elsewhere if need be.

But not today, you've paid for your ticket and you absolutely must be able park your arse if at all possible, because you know your rights and politeness and courtesy be damned.

 

[Johnuk123]

Another thing to consider, what if the person sat down is a customer 'of size' and takes up their seat and some of the next? Should they be expected to pay a 2nd fare?

"Of size" - what's all that about ? it's not illegal to describe fat people as such you know.

 

[Coolguy22468]

I know some airlines do it, but it's not enforceable on the railway yet, as far as I know.

I have had customers of a certain size try (unsuccesfuly) to blag a free first Class upgrade as "I need a big seat and won't fit in one", but I have always found them a double seat they can have to themselves (much to their disgust).

I don't think airlines can, I think ryanair wanted to but was told it would be discrimination if it did.

But asking to be moved up to first class that is a bit naughty.

 

[Roverman]

"Of size" - what's all that about ? it's not illegal to describe fat people as such you know.

Its a phrase I heard once on a TV show describing the problems they have with fat customers!

 

[DiscoStu]

I'm with sqauddie on this. No evidence or detail for this such heinous practice just scaremongering and some very thinly disguised prejudice behind barely suppressed enthusiasm to condemn other people in a fit of righteous indignation.

This entire thread reads wrong from the start. The answer to the question "Can Muslim women take multiple seats for religious reasons" is so obviously "No", and the answer to "what should I do" is so obviously "a) be polite and b) speak to the TM/Guard/TOC staff"; that one has to suspect the motivations of the person posing the question and fanning such indignation.

Or should we all just agree that this is yet more evidence of how evil Muslims/religious/people with different views to us are?, and how we should never have to suffer even the slightest inconvenience to accommodate others beliefs or preferences? other of course than those same other people who have to unconditionally accept ours.

As mentioned, we used to have separate waiting rooms for men and women, and I suspect one definition of a gentleman was someone who wouldn't dream of troubling any woman travelling alone (especially a good Christian woman) by sitting next to her, and who could be expected to have the strength of mind and body to just stand elsewhere if need be.

But not today, you've paid for your ticket and you absolutely must be able park your arse if at all possible, because you know your rights and politeness and courtesy be damned.

No evidence, other than the first hand account of the OP who by his own admission has seen it happen. I'm not sure what other evidence you need ... Youtube footage, perhaps? Surely you're not implying that he's made this up purely to incite some racial hatred?!

And as for your comment that some of us in this thread are treating this as evidence of how evil muslims are, nobody has said that, and I don't think anybody has implied it either. I know I said that all religions are twaddle, but that's my own opinion, and not aimed at muslims specifically.

And your next comment, "... we should never have to suffer even the slightest inconvenience to accommodate others beliefs or preferences? other of course than those same other people who have to unconditionally accept ours."

I don't care what religion they are. If they have an empty seat next to them on a train, and people need or want to use it, having paid for a no doubt expensive ticket, they should be entitled to. If the woman doesn't want/isn't allowed to sit next to a man, then she has several choices ...

1. Stand
2. Travel by other means
3. Purchase two tickets (I'm not sure if this is allowed or not)

Politeness is all well and good in certain scenarios. I would gladly let a pregnant woman, or an elderly/inform person have my seat, but in some cases you have to stand up for yourself and stop people taking the ******.

 

[Roverman]

Some very good points there DiscoStu. I believe Condition 47 could be used to sell a 2nd ticket if a customer was that obstinate.

 

[Nym]

I feel sorry for people that have to do that

"Put down the fork!"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the Railway By-laws were first enacted and I see many postings upon different forum threads refer to parts of these going back well into the 1800's, were there ever mention made in these to cover the point that this thread was first started to discuss ?

What particular Railways By-law(s) should be quoted in posting answers, to cover the point that was first raised.

 

[ainsworth74]

What particular Railways By-law(s) should be quoted in posting answers, to cover the point that was first raised.

I don't know about historic Byelaws but in the current edition I think the only one that might be applicable is 6(8):

6. Unacceptable behaviour

(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

 

[Eagle]

"Of size" - what's all that about ? it's not illegal to describe fat people as such you know.

Circumferentially challenged? :P

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . Or should we all just agree that this is yet more evidence of how evil Muslims/religious/people with different views to us are?, and how we should never have to suffer even the slightest inconvenience to accommodate others beliefs or preferences? other of course than those same other people who have to unconditionally accept ours.

And as for your comment that some of us in this thread are treating this as evidence of how evil muslims are, nobody has said that, and I don't think anybody has implied it either. I know I said that all religions are twaddle, . . .

Mutant Lemming has stated clearly "I do not want to be subject to anyone else's religious fascism when I use public tranpsort" which both suggests strong intolerance of different faith, belief and behaviour systems from his/her own, and that he/she probably would be happier if 'the public' were not nearby while travelling in case their fascism provokes some offence.

Apparently sitting next to a fascist is preferable to remaing at some distance or standing.

We can't have 'public transport' without 'the public', and that includes all of us, whatever way we understand the world and whatever decisions we make during our brief lives. If we cannot feel comfortable with 'the public' then we should isolate ourselves or change ourselves.

 

[SS4]

Circumferentially challenged? :P

Distorting a greater amount of space-time?

 

[Seacook]

Circumferentially challenged? :P

Surely that suggests thinness being analogous to 'vertically challenged' meaning short? 'Fleshly abundant', perhaps?

 

[Flamingo]

I believe the term is Morbidly Obese...

 

[maniacmartin]

Mutant Lemming has stated clearly "I do not want to be subject to anyone else's religious fascism when I use public tranpsort" which both suggests strong intolerance of different faith, belief and behaviour systems from his/her own, and that he/she probably would be happier if 'the public' were not nearby while travelling in case their fascism provokes some offence.

I disagree with this interpretation when reading Mutant Lemming's full post. There is a difference between not actively discriminating on the grounds of religion and giving members of a religion privileges above and beyond other passengers. To me that would be religious discrimination against those who are not of a certain religion.

 

[Oswyntail]

I don't know about historic Byelaws but in the current edition I think the only one that might be applicable is 6(8):

6. Unacceptable behaviour

(8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.

Well that means whoever designed the pendolino/Pacer/[insert least favourite stock here], not to mention the chaps who designed the fares structure/routing guide/franchise system, should be prosecuted under that one with vigour.
Back on topic...

 

[deltic1989]

My experience in this field is very limited as I usually tend to travel on the quieter trains. When I have been on crowded trains and a seat is available I will look around to see if there is anyone more deserving of a seat than myself (elderly/disabled/pregnant you get the idea).
There has been one occasion where I have found an available seat, and a little old lady was standing, I gestured to the seat and said "would you like to sit down Madam" she smiled and replied with "thank you, Young man" and went to sit, the fellow that was sitting in the adjacent seat (a fellow of roughly my own age) heaved a big sigh and said words to the effect of "she hasn't even paid the full f**king fare, silly old duffer". The offence was clear to see on this lady's face, she got back up and went into another coach. I was so appalled by this fellow's behavior I followed not wishing to gain a Police record. The lady did eventually find a seat.

I have absolutely no issue with people sitting next to me, in fact I am happy to allow it, I have had some of the most interesting conversations of my life with random people on trains.
I have happened to sit next to an American ww2 veteran who was back in the UK visiting some of his old haunts from the war and he had some marvelous tales to tell of what he and his friends got up to.
And whilst we are on the subject of Muslims i have had a family of them (Husband, Wife and, Son) sit around a table with me and we had a lovely conversation about Religion and our different beliefs, the Wife actively participating and asking me questions and answering mine.

A funny anecdote to end my contribution to this thread.

Whilst traveling on a rather packed service down South somewhere I found a seat next to a guy. I sat down in it, and the guy turned to me and said in a rather exited tone, "Have you heard the good news about our Lord Jesus Christ" I responded
"Yes, he is my light and my armour". The guy never said a word after that. I think he was trying to discourage me form sitting next to him. Didn't work .

 

[musicking1306]

I travel to southend every 3 weeks on a Friday rush hour out of London and I can't find a seat and if somebody is sat in the aisle and there is a spare window seat, I just step over there legs and sit in the window seat. They aren't going to ask you to move as they have to get up?

 

[brianthegiant]

It seems to me that the OP and many responders are singling out muslim women for criticism, when in fact the majority of people who seat hog are not muslims, and many aren't women. So we are singling out Muslim women for criticism when in fact it is all seat hogging that is unacceptable regardless of religion.

Note also that there is a lot of confusion between what are religious beliefs and what are cultural traditions. For example covering the head is largely an Arab influence on the Islamic world rather than a teaching of Mohammed. Go to many desert regions & you'll find men and women covering their heads to cope with their environment.

Furthermore I would challenge the notion of criticising the behaviour of islamic women, when many of the restrictions are imposed by a male dominated social order in the Muslim community. If codes of honour aren't adhered to then the repercussions for women can be quite severe.

My guess is that if we give a particular group a hard time for following their own religion then we only perpetuate the mutual distrust. If we want immigrant communities to adopt our liberal western values then we need to engage with them on a positive level and show them the benefits of our liberal society. If the behaviour of some men on trains is anything to go by, we aren't doing very well on that front.

the book ' Nomad' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is a very interesting autobiographical work on this subject, since Ayaan is herself from a Somali islamic background & has had to overcome considerable cultural barriers to pursue her chosen career and lifestyle.
www.amazon.com/Nomad-America-Person...?ie=UTF8&qid=1352137561&sr=8-2&keywords=nomad