First will not take over West Coast from December

[Zoe]

Except in the case of nationalisation proposed by Bob Crow at the meeting of the Select Committee that was televised.

I was referring to the current system. Anything different would require legislative changes.

 

[ainsworth74]

Posted on the earlier thread:

Though there are issues with Virgin continuing as their contract runs out and has already been extended so can't easily be extended again. Someone else also pointed out that just having Virgin continue would also possibly be in violation of EU rules. I do not think it's as clear cut as you portray.

 

[HH]

Bob Crow just likes the sound of his own voice (and about the only one who does). His members have done very well out of privatisation, and he must know it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Someone else also pointed out that just having Virgin continue would also possibly be in violation of EU rules. I do not think it's as clear cut as you portray.

If the current franchise debacle were to be presented to the EU legal bodies for full examination, would not the statements of the acceptance of full responsibility by the DfT be taken into consideration when legally examining the original time extension granted as part of that now-discredited DfT process ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the current franchise debacle were to be presented to the EU legal bodies for full examination, would not the statements of the acceptance of full responsibility by the DfT be taken into consideration when legally examining the original time extension granted as part of that now-discredited DfT process ?

The main thing is that the refranchising cannot be indefinitely delayed, and all potential EU bidders must have a chance in the competition.
It's all about openness and preventing corruption (which we probably got inserted in the single market rules in the first place, to stop cushy contracts being extended for ever and never being re-tendered).
I think you are allowed two short extensions, but this looks like 12-18 months after the initial 9 months, and the process is not even defined yet.
If you remember Virgin offered DfT a 2-year extension so they could acquire 11-car Pendolinos, but DfT said they could not consider it because of the EU rules.

Anyway, we hear McLoughlin is discussing this with Tony Collins of VT today.

 

[Zoe]

The main thing is that the refranchising cannot be indefinitely delayed, and all potential EU bidders must have a chance in the competition.

I can't find any EU directive requring that the railways be franchised. The legislation for this is the Railways Act 1993.

 

[snail]

Relating to the 'install ticket barriers' at all West Coast stations I've just thought how well will that work at Carlisle when on a Saturday there can be more excursion passengers to let through than passengers who have travelled on regular services?

Give the excursion passengers tickets to operate the barriers? Or is that too simple?

 

[ainsworth74]

Give the excursion passengers tickets to operate the barriers? Or is that too simple?

Or just get them to show their excursion ticket to the barrier staff? How does it work at the London Terminals or other stations with barriers? This seems like a very small issue that must already have workarounds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't find any EU directive requring that the railways be franchised. The legislation for this is the Railways Act 1993.

It's not specifically about railways.
It is basic rules about government procurement (health, education, defence, etc).
Somewhere it says 15 years is the normal maximum time for a service contract (which a franchise is), with limited scope for extension without a rebid.
A new (short) management contract would be a different matter, and is probably what they will do.
On the other hand it will leave all the risk with DfT.

 

[Zoe]

A new (short) management contract would be a different matter, and is probably what they will do.

Could they let a short term "caretaker" franchise like with Greater Anglia?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could they let a short term "caretaker" franchise like with Greater Anglia?

Not without rebidding it.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could they let a short term "caretaker" franchise like with Greater Anglia?

They would still need to go through the full franchising process to do it. It might not be as complex and long winded as a fifteen year franchise competition but it will still take a while to do. The 'caretaker' franchise of GA was really a waste of time/money in my opinion. We'd have been better served to just go for either an extension of NXEAs franchise temporarily or just go straight for the full franchise competition, rather than faffing around.

 

[Zoe]

Not without rebidding it.

Yes, there would need to be a competition but it I doubt the process would be as complex as it would for awarding a 15 year franchise as the winner could simply be required to just run the trains to the DfT specified timetable. This could allow more time for a comprehensive review of the franching policy. There isn't an election until May 2015 so as long as the 15 year franchises ended up getting let before then, Labour couldn't change much if the won the election.

 

[northwichcat]

Or just get them to show their excursion ticket to the barrier staff? How does it work at the London Terminals or other stations with barriers? This seems like a very small issue that must already have workarounds.

This is the main entrance to the station that I'm talking about:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/CAR/images/photos/800/o1416-0000035.jpg

You can't just knock down walls to create more space as it's a listed station so provision for 300 or so excursion passengers leaving the station at the same time is difficult without barriers.

When I was there one Saturday afternoon I noticed 4 excursion trains were shown on the departure displays and excursion trains usually have a lot of carriages.

The platform closest to the doors is the one Virgin use for southbound services and here are the stairs to the other platforms:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/sjp/CAR/images/photos/800/o1416-0000098.jpg

There's limited options for barriers without relocating the stairs or not choosing to barrier platforms 1-3.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Give the excursion passengers tickets to operate the barriers? Or is that too simple?

Given that there's still numerous everyday tickets that aren't on standard stock would there be too many constraints for excursion companies to invest in the necessary equipment?

 

[Zoe]

They would still need to go through the full franchising process to do it. It might not be as complex and long winded as a fifteen year franchise competition but it will still take a while to do. The 'caretaker' franchise of GA was really a waste of time/money in my opinion. We'd have been better served to just go for either an extension of NXEAs franchise temporarily or just go straight for the full franchise competition, rather than faffing around.

With hindsight, the caretaker franchise may not have been such a bad idea as if they had gone straight for the 15 year franchise then it could have ended up getting declared null and void if it used the same process as West Coast. Still not sure why they didn't just give National Express an extension though.

 

[6Gman]

Was watching an American news channel earlier today who were interviewing RB (in New York apparently). He made two ... er ... interesting claims:

1. That Virgin had increased WC passenger numbers from around 10m pa to 30m pa in eight years. True?

2. That VT had three times been runners-up for East Coast, and that on all three occasions the winning tenderer had 'gone bust'. True?

 

[Zoe]

2. That VT had three times been runners-up for East Coast, and that on all three occasions the winning tenderer had 'gone bust'. True?

GNER went the full term of the first franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

GNER went the full term of the first franchise.

The below is interesting if accurate:

On 15 December 2006 the Department for Transport asked Sea Containers to surrender the franchise. GNER was allowed to continue running the ECML franchise on a fixed-management-contract basis for up to two years while the Department for Transport selected a new franchisee.

On 20 February 2007 the Department for Transport announced that Arriva, First, National Express and Stagecoach/Virgin Group had been shortlisted to lodge bids for the franchise. In April 2007 it was announced that GNER had a 10% stake in the bid lodged by Stagecoach & Virgin. On 14 August 2007 the Department for Transport awarded the franchise to National Express with GNER's services transferring to National Express East Coast on 9 December 2007.

GNER mustn't have gone completely bust if they continued to operate the franchise on an interim basis until a new franchisee was picked.

If the Virgin bid included a 10% stake by GNER it wasn't the same 51/49 Virgin/Stagecoach bid, so effectively a different company.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Blackpool Gasjet are running a poll, Blackpool people so far prefer Virgin!
http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...st-coast-rail-deal-hits-the-buffers-1-4985732

 

[eastdyke]

Was watching an American news channel earlier today who were interviewing RB (in New York apparently). He made two ... er ... interesting claims:

1. That Virgin had increased WC passenger numbers from around 10m pa to 30m pa in eight years. True?

2. That VT had three times been runners-up for East Coast, and that on all three occasions the winning tenderer had 'gone bust'. True?

I heard RB on the BBC News at 1pm, when he was interviewed from studios in New York.

He came across as a little less ebullient than usual, although he could not resist saying that it would be 'madness' for VT not to be allowed to continue to operate the line until a new franchise is sorted.

Here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19817798

 

[Aictos]

Blackpool Gasjet are running a poll, Blackpool people so far prefer Virgin!
http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/n...st-coast-rail-deal-hits-the-buffers-1-4985732

This being the same Virgin who dropped Blackpool to Euston and Birmingham services in 2003 and they still prefer them?

You just couldn't make it up could you!

 

[Zoe]

This being the same Virgin who dropped Blackpool to Euston and Birmingham services in 2003 and they still prefer them?

They may well simply be comparing their experiences of Virgin and First North Western.

 

[charlee]

Great Western Franchise now Delayed! October 2013 they are saying

 

[Stats]

Was watching an American news channel earlier today who were interviewing RB (in New York apparently). He made two ... er ... interesting claims:

1. That Virgin had increased WC passenger numbers from around 10m pa to 30m pa in eight years. True?

Not sure about the eight years bit, but passenger journeys have increased from 12m in 96/97 to 29m in 10/11

2. That VT had three times been runners-up for East Coast, and that on all three occasions the winning tenderer had 'gone bust'. True?

Virgin bid in 2000 - After a controversial competition GNER were recommended to Government by the SRA, but Government made no award and gave GNER a 2 year franchise extension instead. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2001/jul/19/transportintheuk1

In 2004 a consortium consisting of Virgin Group of Companies, Stagecoach and DB bid (http://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=200405071019344112Y). DB pulled out of the consortium between it being shortlisted and the ITT being issued (http://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=200407081454516466A), Virgin and Stagecoach continued in a 50/50 joint venture - GNER won franchise and were stripped of it in 2006

Intercity Railways - a 50/50 joint venture between Virgin Group of Companies and Stagecoach bid in 2007 - Nat Ex won in 2007 and relinquished franchise in 2009.

If the Virgin bid included a 10% stake by GNER it wasn't the same 51/49 Virgin/Stagecoach bid, so effectively a different company.

As mentioned above it was a 50/50 joint venture between the two. GNER would take a 10% stake in the franchise in the joint venture on them signing the franchise agreement. http://www.investegate.co.uk/articlePrint.aspx?id=200706061232138827X As far as I am aware all of Virgin's bids for ICEC have been separate from Virgin Rail Group.

 

[3141]

The below is interesting if accurate:


GNER mustn't have gone completely bust if they continued to operate the franchise on an interim basis until a new franchisee was picked.

If the Virgin bid included a 10% stake by GNER it wasn't the same 51/49 Virgin/Stagecoach bid, so effectively a different company.

My recollection is that GNER were having difficulty keeping up the premium payments they'd contracted to make, partly as a result of the effects of the 7/7/05 bombings in London. Sea Containers had big financial problems and could not afford to meet the payments on GNER's behalf.

When the bidding for the next East Coast franchise was under way the management of GNER became associated with the Virgin/Stagecoach bid, with a 10% stake. I imagine this means that they'd get 10% of the profits if the bid was successful. Presuambly Virgin/Stagecoach believed that having the GNER management on board might give them a better chance of winning.

Sea Containers later went into liquidation.

I'm not sure if this entirely answers your question.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I heard RB on the BBC News at 1pm, when he was interviewed from studios in New York.

He came across as a little less ebullient than usual, although he could not resist saying that it would be 'madness' for VT not to be allowed to continue to operate the line until a new franchise is sorted.

Here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19817798

Yes, I thought RB was more measured than usual. Maybe because the DfT was talking with Tony Collins (of Virgin Rail) and he didn't want to cause any problems if there's a possibility of Virgin continuing to run the WCML after December 9.

But I also thought Maria Eagle was more measured than usual, resisting an attempt to push her into an instant commitment to renationalise the railways.

I haven't heard Bob Crow, but the remarks he's reported to have made are unlikely to be described as "measured".

 

[WatcherZero]

Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin MP, and the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport, Philip Rutnam summoned to appear before the Transport Select Committee on 31st October at 2.45pm. They say that by that date they expect to be presented with the Governments internal review of what went wrong and how much it will cost taxpayers.

Thats Halloween sorted then :P I bet Greening is glad she got forcibly removed from the job as it could have snowballed into a resignation level cockup, shes so lucky as International Development Secretary shes not even in the country at the moment! Villiers is in Northern Ireland and also safely out of the way.

 

[island]

That didn't work then as it was the main story on the front page of today's Times!

Not mine, which was delivered in the early morning. Presumably hit later editions.

 

[WatcherZero]

Channel 4 is hinting at corruption saying that both First Group and the Dft made exactly the same basic error in their maths when calculating the security payments of failing to take account of inflation over 15 years. BBC earlier said the Dft made the same accounting mistake twice, first when comparing all the bids and secondly when calculating the specific security payment required by First. Virgins claim that First were claiming more passengers on services than there were seats also turned out to be right, again an error in calculating inflation of passenger numbers.

 

[Sammy h]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/west-coast-rail-what-next?newsfeed=true

Have you ever seen a more biased article?

 

[asylumxl]

It's no surprise that when the DfT is full of ex-First folk that there is a bias to it...