First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[rail-britain]

can't be granted to a 67 + Mk3 combination for some reason.

Mark 3 loco hauled (non-HST) stock is only capable of maximum speed 110mph

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Would you rather they encouraged it?

Yes I would. Holidaymakers from the provinces should be able to travel to Heathrow & Gatwick with their luggage by rail instead of having to take domestic flights or drive.

Really?

Last train to Wolverhampton from Euston? 2330

Lets have a look around.....

Last train to Bristol from Paddington? 2330

Last Train to Leeds from Kings Cross? 2330

Last train to Derby from St Pancras? 2315

That's fine if you live in Wolverhampton or the midlands. There are no trains to get you back to the northwest after an evening in London, so you have to stay in a rip-off London hotel. The last train beyond is at 2100.

You can't even 100% guarantee getting the last train home after a 5.15 pm kick-off at Wembley, which is now the norm for England's Saturday games.

 

[Whistler40145]

It must be a diagramming nightmare to path a 110mph loco hauled set on lines capable of higher speeds.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

If there's even one seat free, that's one person standing for no reason.

However, as a regular commuter for ten years, I regularly saw a few people choose to stand every day even with loads of free seats around them.

Still, at least you don't have to stand!

Students always insist on sitting in the vestibules getting in everybody's way even when there are lots of empty seats. I'm at a loss to kno why.

 

[Nym]

Students always insist on sitting in the vestibules getting in everybody's way even when there are lots of empty seats. I'm at a loss to kno why.

Commuters on shorter routes are just as guilty of doing this, I'd never leave an empty seat on a train, still, I wasn't your average student...

 

[tbtc]

Yes I would. Holidaymakers from the provinces should be able to travel to Heathrow & Gatwick with their luggage by rail instead of having to take domestic flights or drive

Or, maybe, use the main airports in "the provinces"?

 

[Nym]

Or, maybe, use the main airports in "the provinces"?

But that wouldn't mean they could save a whole £30 on their flights by flying from Standsted or Luton rather than flying from Manchester, Newcastle etc, even though it costs them £100 to get to the other airport.

You not remember that holidaymakers are 90% of the time intrinsicly thick...

 

[starrymarkb]

Yes I would. Holidaymakers from the provinces should be able to travel to Heathrow & Gatwick with their luggage by rail instead of having to take domestic flights or drive.

Though with Domestic flights and through ticketing then you are at least covered if the inbound domestic flight is late.

Of course in an ideal world the station at Heathrow would have been built like Charles De Gaulle TGV, Frankfurt Airport or Amsterdam Schiphol with through services from the GWML (at least) with provision for a link to HS1 & HS2 and with trains carrying 'flight numbers' so they can be booked as through journeys by the airlines.
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But that wouldn't mean they could save a whole £30 on their flights by flying from Standsted or Luton rather than flying from Manchester, Newcastle etc, even though it costs them £100 to get to the other airport.

You not remember that holidaymakers are 90% of the time intrinsicly thick...

I once took a call from someone complaining that there was no late night bus (as in 2am) from East Midlands Airport to Birmingham Airport. Turned out the Ryanair return flight was about £10 cheaper to EMA rather then BHX. But his car was parked at BHX. That would be one expensive Taxi!

 

[HH]

It must be a diagramming nightmare to path a 110mph loco hauled set on lines capable of higher speeds.

Beyond a nightmare. I believe it's not possible to fit 110mph trains in one path on the WCML. So putting it simply, it just ain't gonna happen.
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Another though has just occurred to me. We know First has been short of cash. Just how much cash will WCML generate? Well for a start all travel is paid for quicker than most bills are paid out. And then there's Advance Purchase, which can be paid for a long time ahead of the bills. Maybe First will be as much as £100m better off cash-wise with WCML on board.

And of course there is the corollary - if First didn't win something before one of their current cash cows went back then their cash position would have worsened.

As the saying goes, "Cash is King". Or as I like to put it, "Profit for show, cash for dough".

 

[rail-britain]

Beyond a nightmare. I believe it's not possible to fit 110mph trains in one path on the WCML. So putting it simply, it just ain't gonna happen.

Quite an example with the Friday only Euston - Preston

However (old) InterCity managed this with a mix of 100mph and 110mph rolling stock, usually passing at Stafford or Crewe

Equally, Virgin Trains did this recently with some Glasgow - Euston services, the faster service passed at Lancaster

 

[Whistler40145]

I presume that no rolling stock changes are planned until First takeover in December & even then the ink will only have dried on any order for new stock.

 

[HH]

Quite an example with the Friday only Euston - Preston

However (old) InterCity managed this with a mix of 100mph and 110mph rolling stock, usually passing at Stafford or Crewe

Equally, Virgin Trains did this recently with some Glasgow - Euston services, the faster service passed at Lancaster

100 & 110 is different to 110 & 125. There are journeys that can be made on parts of the route at 110. Just not enough to make a 110mph fleet workable. I'm no expert on this, so I asked someone that is.

 

[jimm]

Does anyone agree that the livery used on First West Coast's rolling stock be the same as First Hull Trains Adelante fleet rather than that on First TransPennine Express's Class 185 fleet?

Probably depends on how First Group corporate or not the branding will be.

If they stick with 'First xxxx' as the brand, then it seems a fair bet, as the five FGW 180s have just been turned out in the same design as the Hull Trains sets and it is styled for use with a wedge-nosed train. But if they go for a non-First brand, in the same way Arriva did with XC, as mentioned above, then they may go for something brand new.

As a matter of interest, if the majority of a trains livery is in vinyl & not painted, how long would it take to affix new vinyls?

Vinyl-wrapping an FGW power car with diamond jubilee markings - though speeded up a bit, but gives a good idea of what's involved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1uTX8M4vsA

 

[HH]

I presume that no rolling stock changes are planned until First takeover in December & even then the ink will only have dried on any order for new stock.

I would imagine that it will take around 3 years (Pendos should take less than something new to UK rail) to deliver anything new once contracts are signed.

 

[jon0844]

Commuters on shorter routes are just as guilty of doing this, I'd never leave an empty seat on a train, still, I wasn't your average student...

In my case I was talking about commuters, and also a really nice old lady that always stood in the vestibule at the far end of the train (furthest from the platform at King's Cross). Maybe she couldn't comfortably sit down, but I never dared to ask.. Nor the man who always stood in the aisle between two toilets reading a book every morning (and not because he needed urgent access to the toilet as far as I could see).

I sometimes stood if I had been sitting all day, so maybe that's it?

 

[IanXC]

Incoming TOCs like to get at least one re-liveried, but outgoing TOCs have been known to be very awkward about this. It's not unknown for staff to do a relivery but to have to hide the train from outgoing bosses...

You'd feel a bit silly as an outgoing manager if you'd not noticed an 11 car pendo had been missing for a week!!

 

[Lee W]

Does this mean now we will lose the Bearded one from UK trains?

Branson says he wanted to improve the travelling experience - was he successful?

personally i think the goverment should give richard branson Virgin East Coast now theve refused him more than once they should give him the chance now

we could see pendos on east coast aswell as west coast

 

[rail-britain]

I presume that no rolling stock changes are planned until First takeover in December & even then the ink will only have dried on any order for new stock.

Why would there be any changes?
The only thing that will happen between now and 09 December is the removal of all Virgin Trains branding
That is going to be some task, with Cross Country it was relatively easy as it was pretty much only the rolling stock
This time it will include stations and signage

I wouldn't expect to see any details of a rolling stock order before March 2013

 

[Whistler40145]

You're right, First West Coast just need to settle in to provide a same for same service on 9th December & ensure they are settling in then an order should be made.

 

[snail]

Normally as long as a set can be spared then it will be taken behind closed doors and reliveried in the last week of a franchise, I'm sure with the consent of management.

Don't forget there are a couple of new Pendolino sets on the, errm, Horizon.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[NSEFAN]

personally i think the goverment should give richard branson Virgin East Coast now theve refused him more than once they should give him the chance now

we could see pendos on east coast aswell as west coast

The franchises aren't simply "given out" like free newspapers. There is a bidding process which must take place first. If beardy et al can't/won't make the best bid, then they will not get the franchise.

Even if Virgin was given the ECML tommorow, this wouldn't mean Pendolino trains being built for the route. There is a seperate process for this (rolling stock procurement). Virgin didn't invent the Pendolino!

Welcome to the forum btw.

 

[HSTEd]

personally i think the goverment should give richard branson Virgin East Coast now theve refused him more than once they should give him the chance now

we could see pendos on east coast aswell as west coast

Why can't I get the ECML, I am personally about as qualified to do so as the beardy one.

Intercity East Coast Ltd.

 

[The Planner]

Beyond a nightmare. I believe it's not possible to fit 110mph trains in one path on the WCML. So putting it simply, it just ain't gonna happen.

Yes it is possible, as the LM paths have been put in. It is a squeeze but it can be done. There wasn't actually anything wrong with the Alliance 67 paths. It is easier now there isn't the journey time restriction on the Virgin schedules.

 

[rail-britain]

Why can't I get the ECML, I am personally about as qualified to do so as the beardy one.
Intercity East Coast Ltd.

There's a bit more to it than simply choosing a Limited company name, then registering it
Take a look at the ITT documents, then the pre-qualification application form

It's not all about one person (Richard Branson) but the whole organisation, setup, etc
Although what appears to be a bottomless pit of money helps, but looks like even Richard Branson has now realised throwing £14m per bid is wasteful

To put it into perspective, even the couple that won the EuroMillions £148m wouldn't be able to afford it! (even if they had the relevant experience)

Strange how things have changed
East Coast used to be the most profitable route on the railway, now it is the West Coast

 

[Yew]

we could see pendos on east coast aswell as west coast

God no! Replacing mk3's and4's with cramped pendolinos, despite there being no new for tilt. I would prefer IEP's !

I thought hauled mk3's could go 125, or is it just due to no tilt?

 

[rail-britain]

I thought hauled mk3's could go 125, or is it just due to no tilt?

The Mark 3 coaches with HST power cars have additional relays, allowing them to operate at 125mph
The Mark 3A and 3B coaches do not have these relays, so are limited to 110mph

 

[Whistler40145]

I would like a High Speed train e.g. Siemens Velaro D (ICE-3) CAF Oaris or Hitachi Javelin used on the WCML.

 

[tbtc]

The Mark 3 coaches with HST power cars have additional relays, allowing them to operate at 125mph
The Mark 3A and 3B coaches do not have these relays, so are limited to 110mph

But if they can't tilt then 110 is the maximum on the WCML, be it Mallard, an HST or anything else.
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I would like a High Speed train e.g. Siemens Velaro D (ICE-3) CAF Oaris or Hitachi Javelin used on the WCML.

Whilst a Javelin can do 140 elsewhere, the lack of tilt would limit it to 110 on the WCML

 

[Yew]

The Mark 3 coaches with HST power cars have additional relays, allowing them to operate at 125mph
The Mark 3A and 3B coaches do not have these relays, so are limited to 110mph

I never realised they where so dissimilar, I thought It was just power supply and the lack of buffers. However it doesnt seem too hard to convert them to 125 operation if needed. (first have done it to extend their HST's so I imagine a loco hauled variant could be possible)

However I suppose there has never been any need, as Chiltern have speed restrictions with their 67's, and 90's have a top speed of 110 anyway.

 

[Whistler40145]

If the Javelin doesn't tilt, you can discount that then, so I would go for the CAF Oaris as in the future it is ready for any High Speed line.