First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[LE Greys]

Just found someone who was ahead of the game, they did this 2½ years ago.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/12106-first-great-western-pendolino/

 

[williamn]

Safety is more important, the IC70 seats were not crashworthy.

Exactly how many injuries / deaths have there been because of these 'dangerous' seats? I'll wager not many.

 

[tbtc]

Well, quite

And my cynicism is well founded on fares, if we're all honest. There are people on this forum and outside who are saying, quite reasonably, "On the basis of the figures provided, First will have to increase fares in the future".

Virgin raised fares a couple of times, and would have to raise fares a few more times if they'd won (given that they were planning on paying a large premium too)

Having read FWC PR and listened to their CEO today, it seems to me that their innovations are little more than froth, rehashing things that VT had in hand or were part of the bid criteria.

When VT publish their bid document tomorrow expect there to be little difference from the First bid.

So what is the real reason for the DfT decision? Simply money? or is the clue in this post that I stumbled on, reminding me of VT's serious spat with DfT over the stengthening of the Pendelino fleet. If I recall there was a lot of bad blood and the 'stalling' by the hopeless DfT cost the industry a serious amount of ££££

'...and the battle to deliver 11 coach Pendolinos, where eventually you were proved right and DfT's stalling, a regime that gave us overcrowded trains and the costs of last minute delvery.'

In this country, Beardy, if you find yourself on the outside, you'll never beat the establishment, especially the Civil Service, as Bob Diamond will tell you.

Is this the same Branson who is so "out in the cold" that, erm the Government recently sold him bits of Northern Rock at a knock down price? Yeah, that's one way of punishing him...

Transport minister interviewed on Radio 4 stated that the “new routes to Blackpool, Telford and Shrewsbury will be trials”.

Looks like after just half a day my scepticism is well founded!!

Of course they are going to say its a "trial" to encourage people to use them.

If insufficient people use them then the stock will get used elsewhere and we can forget about the plight of the "largest county in England without a direct service to London", simple as that.

Dont be so quick to lap up the PR, theres quite a few hints in there. Changes to increase seating and luggage space and 'at seat catering' suggests the reality is replacing the shop with more seats and a trolley service. Freezing head count when you should be employing more means redistribution of staff to different jobs like the introduction of gating at 21 stations, where do you think the staff come from if they dont hire more? Likely they will simply not replace any natural reductions of staff

A day or two ago we were seeing claims of eight hundred staff getting the boot plus fares doubling. Now we are seeing a pledge to maintain staff numbers and a 15% cut to some fares. Yes, some fares will go up over the franchise (as they would have under Virgin) and some staff requirements will change. But the claims from the likes of Bob Crow look like fact-less scaremongering. Again.

 

[Lampshade]

Exactly how many injuries / deaths have there been because of these 'dangerous' seats? I'll wager not many.

Thinking about it, the last crash with IC70 seats was Ladbroke Grove - no seat could have survived in that.

 

[marks87]

Exactly how many injuries / deaths have there been because of these 'dangerous' seats? I'll wager not many.

There's no way of knowing.

To flip what you said round the other way, how do we know that the high-back seats weren't the part of the reason that Grayrigg wasn't worse than it was?

 

[Zoe]

Thinking about it, the last crash with IC70 seats was Ladbroke Grove - no seat could have survived in that.

Don't forget Ufton Nervet. I believe testing on these seats after the crash showed that they shatter and that's why FGW installed the Grammer seats.

 

[jon0844]

I obviously can't speak for Branson, but from what he said on the news earlier, he's giving up on railways. This would not be the first time he's known when to quit, he got out of the record business at just the right time. I expect we've seen the last of Virgin Trains.

I seriously doubt it. All (very successful) damage limitation, to hide the fact that the bid wasn't good enough.

Now most people believe First will make things worse and it's mostly the fault of the Government. What a PR win! Joe Public now mourns the loss of a company that I seem to recall many members of the public regularly moaning about before for a multitude of reasons.

 

[sparks2000]

I hope that when First said that staff levels would be broadly the same over the first 5 years that they stick to that promise and that those with a job at Virgin retain their job when First take over, maybe with just a little natural wastage. Mostly for the benefit of the staff but partly for the benefit of the wider economy.

Does that allow First (or Virgin) to claim that there are no redundancies planned whilst cutting fixed term contracts? I accept that's not redundancy but if the number of jobs being funded is down then there is a cut.

 

[ainsworth74]

Could different branding be used for different services? For example the intercity services branded Virgin and the London commuter services branded Great Northern Trains? Stagecoach use different branding for the Island Line even though it's part of a single South Western franchise.

I don't see why not, but I can't claim to know the mind of Branson or Virgin Rail Group, so can only go on what we've seen so far, which is, that Virgin don't do anything other than long distance operations.

Exactly how many injuries / deaths have there been because of these 'dangerous' seats? I'll wager not many.

That, however, does not change the fact that they are not crashworthy by modern safety standards.

 

[harz99]

Safety is more important, the IC70 seats were not crashworthy.

Really; maybe someone should tell Chiltern that as they are still in daily use on the silver trains!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Cheer up everyone Manchester Piccadily will be ticker barriered as part of the franchise deal!

 

[Lampshade]

Cheer up everyone Manchester Piccadily will be ticker barriered as part of the franchise deal!

Be still my beating heart :roll:

 

[LE Greys]

Don't forget Ufton Nervet. I believe testing on these seats after the crash showed that they shatter and that's why FGW installed the Grammer seats.

That doesn't surprise me, although it sounds more like a materials problem than anything wrong with the shape of the seat, which is the important thing here. They were made using '70s materials, and have been used intensively ever since.

 

[ainsworth74]

Really; maybe someone should tell Chiltern that as they are still in daily use on the silver trains!

Grandfather rights. If they're already fitted you can leave them there but if you want to fit new seats or build a new train then you have to use seating that meets modern requirements which IC70s do not.

 

[Zoe]

That doesn't surprise me, although it sounds more like a materials problem than anything wrong with the shape of the seat, which is the important thing here. They were made using '70s materials, and have been used intensively ever since.

Also in the event of a roof collapse the Grammer seats would offer more protection that the IC70s.

 

[jon0844]

Really; maybe someone should tell Chiltern that as they are still in daily use on the silver trains!

Grandfather rights? Why else do we still have Pacers? Surely if First is installing new seats rather than refurbishing, they must comply with current legislation. And anyway, who makes IC70 seats today?

 

[Stats]

I am happy that they are going to reinstate the old Blackpool direct service from London. I am also happy that they will introduce services direct to Bolton, Telford and Shrewsbury. Oh, and this is why they won, not because they promised they government lots of money; because they promised to run a better service and to connect more places directly to London.

You've seen Virgin's bid then? Thought not. You don't know what services Virgin were offering in their bid. For all we know they may have been offering the same service improvements. We just don't know although I have read that they have said their bid also included reintroducing Blackpool services.

 

[12CSVT]

or a 317 from FCC !

Something similar happened in the late 1990s when First North Western ran their ill-conceived Manchester Airport to Euston services using class 322 units, and weren't allowed to call at intermediate stations served by Virgin.

 

[Donny Dave]

I've just had a very quick skim through the topic, and although I have seen a couple of references to Comrade Crow not being happy, I haven't seen a link to his rant, so here it is ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19265985 (video)

Please note that the page was uploaded to the BBC website a nine minutes past eight this morning. In the video, Bob Crow is already threatening to ballot West Coast employees for industrial action on the day that First Group take over the franchise. So, before First Group have announced their plans for the route, Bob apparently knows exactly what is going to happen, and how he can prevent the "nasty, greedy, capitalist money grabbers" from carrying out those plans.

Unfortunatley, all he has done is make himself look like a complete tool* and a Arthur Scargill clone!

*Other views about the man can be used, but remember this is supposed to be a family friendly forum.

 

[Yew]

Don't forget Ufton Nervet. I believe testing on these seats after the crash showed that they shatter and that's why FGW installed the Grammer seats.

Aha, that makes more sense, they seem to simply be a plastic back, with the padding in, and some simple metal fixings. A modern seat to the same profile would probably have some fetal reenforcement, and would be more likely to use modern plastics, which can be stronger and less brittle. I suppose Higher backs adds protection from shrapnel too.

I really want to try the Gammer seats with out the 'Wings' They could be a good comprimise between priviacy, safety, and visibility. However saying that I would like to see what its like to sit in an Original Mk4 and the APT, I think they should be a pretty good balance

EDIT: I imagine with modern rolling stock, major failure of the roof would be a minimal concern. However as much as I hate to admit it, Googling HST crash does bring up results showing merit to the idea of higher seats on Legacy high speed stock.

 

[87015]

Has any owning group been as unsuccessful as VRG in delivering their franchises? 0 for 2 isn't very good reading, GNER and NX might have failed once each and I think Connex at least managed to get SouthCentral through without going back to the table.

Can't quite remember if it was XC or WC which went to the wall and back for renegotiation first though...

 

[junglejames]

You mean, of course, Off Peak and Super Off Peak.

Yeah when i can be bothered to call them such names.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Transport minister interviewed on Radio 4 stated that the “new routes to Blackpool, Telford and Shrewsbury will be trials”.
Looks like after just half a day my scepticism is well founded!!

Trying to be charitable, I think what she means is that the new destinations are not part of the mandatory service specification (nor are Wrexham and Lockerbie on the current franchise).
So First can do what they like with them, at their risk.

 

[junglejames]

Joe Public now mourns the loss of a company that I seem to recall many members of the public regularly moaning about before for a multitude of reasons.

Thats a good point. Virgin have been very canny. They ran the old trains into the ground, so when they introduced the pendys, they could make out as if they have been more amazing than they really have.
I have seen comments saying only Virgin would have introduced these fast tilting modern trains. Without Virgin we would apparently have the horrible old loco hauled trains. Totally forgetting the fact BR wanted to do the same.

 

[sonic2009]

https://www.facebook.com/firstwestcoast

Looks like someone's already having a laugh

 

[jon0844]

Or even that BR built a lot of the tilting tech in those 'Virgin-invented' trains...

Sure, the interior layout was down to Virgin, but that was the bad bit wasn't it? Not the trains themselves (toilet smells excepted).

If the ECML could benefit from tilting trains, I'm sure they'd have had them by now too (either new trains or the Mk4s having been tilt activated).

 

[table38]

https://www.facebook.com/firstwestcoast

Looks like someone's already having a laugh

From that site:

 

[junglejames]

Or even that BR built a lot of the tilting tech in those 'Virgin-invented' trains...

Sure, the interior layout was down to Virgin, but that was the bad bit wasn't it? Not the trains themselves (toilet smells excepted).

If the ECML could benefit from tilting trains, I'm sure they'd have had them by now too (either new trains or the Mk4s having been tilt activated).

You and I know that. But too many either dont know much, or are too in love with Branson. I used to think he was one of the good guys. Ive since learnt he is no different to many others. He is very cunning and clever. Perhaps more so than a lot of others, and thats what others fall for.

 

[90019]

Unfortunatley, all he has done is make himself look like a complete tool* and a Arthur Scargill clone!

Bears and woods come to mind.

 

[jopsuk]

As I've just seen pointed out on twitter- Branson has been doing all his interviews today from his private tropical island. Anyone got any sympathy for him personally?
All the senior management will easily find jobs elsewhere. All the other staff, for the time being, are safe under TUPE