Pendolino derailment at Greyrigg

[devon_metro]

Comparing this incident to Upton shows the difference in durability between the two trains. That's not saying MkIII stock is unsafe - Upton showed that the stock was up to withstanding high speed crashes without vast loss of life. However, gave us (the public) really the first insight as to how well built these trains actually are. The train sides are strong and well secure, the windows are strengthened - had the sides crumpled then we would have probably seen further fatalities. The driver's life was probably saved by the shear strength of the body of the cab - I read one report commenting on how difficult it is to actually break into the cab or deform it in any way - given that HST cabs are, I heard, made partly of wood.

I trust anything made by Bombardier.

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

 

[CallySleeper]

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

But not doubting that Bombardier and Alstom have created some outstanding trains?

 

[87015]

But we can't compare trains with 30 years in safety between them...

Not my point. Was saying that you can't compare the damage recieved in a derailment to that of a collision.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Not my point. Was saying that you can't compare the damage recieved in a derailment to that of a collision.

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

 

[Tom]

Ufton Nervet was a level-crossing crash, a head on collision.

This one is not a head-on collision judging by the pictures, they are totally different trains, totally different design and therefore totally uncomparable.

 

[devon_metro]

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

As is yours, hence you name...

 

[voyagerdude220]

As is yours, hence you name...

I somehow expected someone to notice that

 

[87015]

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

Where have I said anything anti-Pendo in relation to this event? The pendo has shown its survived the derailment very well, no denying that, and i'm very glad that is the case.

i'm trying to articulate that you can't compare it with Ufton Nervot. Its a different type of crash.

 

[Sprog]

Well... it does have motors dunnit?

*sigh*

But your opinion 87015, is very likely to be biased, hence your name.

:roll: :roll:

God, abit slow aren't we!?

Ufton Nervet had totally differant circumstances to yesterdays derailment....

..for example, the fact that with a Class 390, you havent got 70+ tonnes of dead weight forcing 30 year old Mk.3s forward into another 70+ tonne lump on the front at 100mph. Think about it.

Stop talking rubbish please, its get very irritating.

Yes, the 390 did a fantastic job of withstanding the impact

Yes, well done to Alstom and the designers for making this possible

Why all the 390 worshipping and associated tosh? Cant you just take a sensible, non childish, non rail-enthusiast view of this accident. Be realistic, it hasnt really 'earnt' anything, just done whats it was designed to do. End of stroy.

As for the condition of 033, well, 'apparently' (quote from Branson in an interview) it is repairable, but how on earth that can be assessed so quickly without any apparent technical inspection and in the current environment the train it is, this is utter rubbish :roll:

The unit may be written off..it may be not. Its highly likey the stresses the vehicles went through during the derailment would have compromised their structural integeraty. Although this will depend on the engineers once it is recovered properly and taken to Crewe (?) for investigation.

Once there, it will be asessed throughly and then the decesion will be made about whether the unit is beyond economical repair.

If they are built anything like Modern cars though, i would say that it may be write off, as they are designed to absorb impact forces and crumple under such forces to prevent more damage. I know for a fact its very easy to write off most modern cars with rather minor crunches, as once the 'crumple zones' are compromised, it becomes beyond economical repair.....but that is partly also the result of todays 'throw away' society.

We shall just have to wait and see.

Anyway, mennt to post this earlier, but never got around to it.

My sympathies and a quick recovery wished to the Driver, Traincrew and Pax involved.

And well done to all the Emergancy services personell aswell for such a swift and professional operation in difficult conditions.

Still only one fatality, which is impressive considering the speed/scale of the derailemnt. RIP though. Lets hope there are no more, though this seems unlikley now.

Was abit concerned last night as my girfreinds Aunty is a Buffet Steward based at Carlisle so a few phone calls where made and as far as i know, she had no involvment luckily.

Media are just talking total rubbish as usual. I was going to make a few phonecalls/emails to BBC/ITV complaining about their shoddy reporting, but so many differnt reporters etc, i lost track.

Didnt see Bob Crows interview though, or that Curley-haird Morons 'expert opinion', but they both sound just as moronic as usual.

Might make a complaint about Wolmar though, consideirng he pulled an identical stunt at Selby and Ufton Nervet aswell. Bellend.

Can further specualtion be avoided though please? In fairness, most of you dont know what your blabbering about and no one knows the full facts.

Lets let the RAIB do their job.

Cheers,

Tom (x)

 

[Sprog]

Hmn, Really Ufton was a derailment. Cars don't make any difference to trains, other than if parts get underneath the wheels. In this case, the leading wheel set derailed, and complete derailment took place at a set of points. Now there was no embankment much in that case, although heavy power cars were involved, I'd say the HST did much less well, which is understandable given its' age.

At Ufton Nervert, the cars Gearbox (pretty dam hefty bit of metal) got wedged under 43019s #1 Gearbox meaning when it reached the Facing points of Ufton loop, it jumped off the Down line and rapidly de-cellerated as it 'dug in' to the Trackbed, meaning the 70 1/2 tonnes of 43029 trailing the set kept pushing the rest of the Mk.3s casuing them to jack-knife. This resulted in the compression of the coach formation between the two dead-weights and hence the devestation and the 'folding' of the Buffet Car, as they are known from previous incidents at Southall and Ladbroke to be weak in accidents.

A Pendolinos weight is quite evenly spread throughout the train consit because of the Distributed drive and so this aided it in the crash.

Note from the pictures, the 2nd leading coach which has the Panto and associated Transformer gear on board ended up with the Panto end of the coach down he embankment leaving the lighter end of the coach suspended at approx 50 degrees in the air....

 

[Coxster]

I really don't think much of some of the media's reports. For example:

 

[Nick W]

Considering the train was not the first to go over since the work on the point, it is very odd that they should simple be missing.

Shame the points in question have not yet been upgraded to a newer type.

 

[voyagerdude220]

*sigh*



:roll: :roll:

Stop talking rubbish please, its get very irritating.

No like i've said all along, I was simply comparing an accident which has involved an HST, and Friday's accident, and didn't say it's a similar impact etc

When i first heard that it could be points/track to blame for the accident, I was wondering, couldn't the previous trains which ran over this stretch tell a difference in track quality?

 

[Sprog]

Considering the train was not the first to go over since the work on the point, it is very odd that they should simple be missing.

Shame the points in question have not yet been upgraded to a newer type.

Newer type...............? :?

As far as we all know at the moment, what possible differance would that make?? :roll:

If this is a maintenance issue then, NICK, consider this:

You can have something brand new and shiney, but if you dont install and maintain it correctly, its just as usless/'unsafe' as the old one. :roll: This is a basic principle of engineering. :mad:

Think before you speak, seriously......!!

No like i've said all along, I was simply comparing an accident which has involved an HST, and Friday's accident, and didn't say it's a similar impact etc

When i first heard that it could be points/track to blame for the accident, I was wondering, couldn't the previous trains which ran over this stretch tell a difference in track quality?

Possibly, possibly not.

We dont even know what the actual defect was the the moment.

As for the track quality question...thats down to the drivers who cover the route every day to judge isnt it. Im sure anything relating to that will be revealed in the near future, when the interview the driver of the preceeding train(s) for example. It might have been a gradual fault, it might not...

Too be hounest, "me-know-no!" , and i bet no one else does either.

But all i can say is, if you beleive that dribble about Sabotage, then you must believe in the Tooth Fairy and flippin Father Christmas too?

 

[Tom B]

I guess the witness statements of staff and passengers will reveal more information, if there was problems beforehand. When and if did those problems start to be reported, if at all?

Presumably they will ask drivers/passengers on the previous trains if they noticed anything amiss?

 

[class 313]

I see the BBC have managed to screw the map up!

I do believe the pantograph coach is the motor coach aswell, although I could be wrong!

 

[87015]

I do believe the pantograph coach is the motor coach aswell, although I could be wrong!

For what its worth...

DMRFO-MFO(A)-PTFO-MFO(B)-TSO-MSO(A)-PTSRMB-MSO(B)-DMSO

So all technically motor cars apart from the middle car (the added ninth) and the PTFO/PTSRMB - the two pantograph cars.
So, yes the driving cars are also power cars which is what the original point made was.

 

[Hentis]

Hope the driver is not too serious - we often don't survive these things and in my 19 years I've lost 2 colleauges at Bomo. 1 at Clapham - Johnny Rolls and 1 at Holton Heath - Clive Brooker.

Clive Brooker was my mate ( who I worked with at Autohomes UK brother and Johnny Rolls was my mates dads' mate). It such a loss to loose any one.

Hentis

 

[thefab444]

*sigh*

Thought they were both DMs? I guess they're DTs then...

 

[devon_metro]

As if anybody would wear one?

 

[neonison]

Fisrt post - thanks for letting me on here.

BTP spokesman on BBC News 24 suggested that it would at least next weekend (3/4 March) before this part of the WCML reopened.
Why does it need to take quite so long? and are rail cranes no longer available to perform heavy lifting operations now?

 

[Tom]

Think it's more to do with the fact that they rolled down an embankment and the rail cranes would need much more stabilising than normal.

 

[neonison]

Sunday Times published this photograph.

It appears to show a facing crossover but whether we're looking "up" or "down" seems unclear.

Whichever, I don't think this is on the running lines?

 

[westcoaster]

hi guys, looking at some of the pics in the paper today, and it seems to me by looking at them the train was off before the points( my opinion), but this damage could of been caused by the passing of the train.

 

[Sprog]

Sunday Times published this photograph.

It appears to show a facing crossover but whether we're looking "up" or "down" seems unclear.

Whichever, I don't think this is on the running lines?

IF its even the set of points in question.....

There is absolutely no way of telling if thats the case from that picture.

It could just be a libary picture some moron reporter has pulled up from somewhere.

 

[Humberside]

Will the S&C be getting any diversions this week?

 

[neonison]

IF its even the set of points in question.....

There is absolutely no way of telling if thats the case from that picture.

Agreed, but I'd give the ST a little more integrity to believe it was close, given that it is obviously a grainy and much enlarged shot.

Centre picture we're looking at the crossover between up and down lines. The "check rail" (not clear on that term) looks bent back. That there are bolts missing from the fishplate, but these won't be the same as bolts missing from a stretcher bar.

 

[First ScotRail]

Will the S&C be getting any diversions this week?

It will indeed, amended timetables for west coast and cross country are on virgins website

 

[wulfruna]

hi guys, looking at some of the pics in the paper today, and it seems to me by looking at them the train was off before the points( my opinion), but this damage could of been caused by the passing of the train.

Sorry to butt-in the flow of the conversation! Newbie alert!

I must say westcoaster I agree with you. I think this derailment is just like the one at Upton, where the train hit an object on the line, derailing the leading axel, only for the train to derail on a set of points further down the line.

Read Richard Branson's comments in the sundaymail.

"The driver came around the corner, the line was defective and the train went off the line.

"But he carried on sitting in his carriage for half a mile, running the train on the stone.


He says "half a mile". An estimated guess. But I think this makes sense. The last car is no further than 70-90 feet behind the trailing crossover. If the train was derailed on the trailing crossover at 95mph, then the train would be off in a second, and at a stand in less than 4.5 seconds. No time to passengers to react.

The distance from the leading crossover to the site is around 100 yards. If the train were derailed by the leading crossover travelling at line speed, it would cover the distance to crash site in just 3 seconds. Again far too short a time, as passenger accounts do tell of time to make a reaction to the initial “impact” jolt. The BBC executive had time to think about the problem and push her table seat into the up position worried if she would be impaled on it.

So, if the train hit an object, 1/4 mile up the line - say in the cutting after the over bridge at Docker Hall, then the train would take aprox 10 seconds - taking into account the driver's delayed reaction to break hard - until the leading bogie which is off the rails (now travelling at 50-60mph) – strikes the cross over - and thus derails.

Looking at the aerial photos of the scene – the down line between the crossovers does not appear to be damaged. Suggesting that the train came off as a result of striking the trailing crossing. If the leading axle on the leading bogie was off to the left, it could of ridden over the frog on the leading crossing. But when approaching the trailing crossing, the leading bogie would be forced off the rails because the inner wheel is sliding down the turnout’s blade on the trailing crossing forcing the bogie left and off the rails.

Perhaps the leading wheels, being off the rails on hitting the leading crossing, damaged the tie bar forcing the rear bogie up the crossover to the upline where the angle of the coach would force the rear bogie to move forwards rather than sideways – thus ripping it off the rail – bending the check rail as you see it in the Sunday Times photo?? This would make the front car twist to the left snapping the gangway between first and second cars.

Of cause all speculation!!

 

[westcoaster]

welcome to the forum wulfruna, i looked at the pics and thought no train can stop that quick from the crossover, if it had you would have a horrific site, iirc the btp say there is three points of intrest the crossover, the ???, and the ????.