Major new electrification projects to be anounced shortly

[DXMachina]

Good luck with Marylebone - Aylesbury electrification - I think London Underground might have something to say about a fair stretch (Amersham - Harrow) of that...... I can't see LUL agreeing to wires all over their infrastructure, so I doubt that one will happen any time soon.

I think there are two routes from Marylebone to Aylesbury, only one of which traverses LU rails, and could stay with its 165/6/8 stock.

Wiring to there has certain advantages in giving another electric route from Bletchley (in future) to London but its hardly going to be a priority

 

[YorkshireBear]

The map posted in south wales electrification thread is insane. It includes to southampton, the oxford nuneaton route the east west rail link and walsall to rugely trent valley.

Yet..... only to selby on north TPE....

here is the link... http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

 

[HSTEd]

The map posted in south wales electrification thread is insane. It includes to southampton, the oxford nuneaton route the east west rail link and walsall to rugely trent valley.

Yet..... only to selby on north TPE....

here is the link... http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

File shows as corrupted for me, but of course they will be announcing hull electrification as part of the East Coast works so they can go on more about "upgrading" the line.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Did that to me, just refresh page and it works.

 

[jopsuk]

Good luck with Marylebone - Aylesbury electrification - I think London Underground might have something to say about a fair stretch (Amersham - Harrow) of that...... I can't see LUL agreeing to wires all over their infrastructure, so I doubt that one will happen any time soon.

Dual voltage stock and the same 3rd rail/4th rail interoperability system as found on the Watford DC and Richmond lines (4th rail is 0V and bonded eletrically to the running rail being used for traction return by 3rd rail units). Easy!

 

[HSTEd]

Did that to me, just refresh page and it works.

Wow this map is nuts, does this imply re-electrification of the SWML?

 

[Kettledrum]

so - the map shows an electrified route between Sheffield and Southampton


- a new cross country route avoiding Birmingham New Street???

 

[HSTEd]

so - the map shows an electrified route between Sheffield and Southampton


- a new cross country route avoiding Birmingham New Street???

This map must have been made on drugs, it appears to make little sense, especially as it seems to have electrified half of the Chiltern line and then neglected to do the rest.

 

[John55]

so - the map shows an electrified route between Sheffield and Southampton


- a new cross country route avoiding Birmingham New Street???

Intermodal trains from Southampton.

 

[cle]

Interesting about the Thames Valley branches - can't say I'm surprised but they'll probably be cheap add-ons.

Southampton is an odd one - I always thought Basingstoke/Reading would be third rail but obviously not.

Good about the E/W route and also the Kenilworth stretch (will they finally get their station?) - obviously the future holds some new and interesting cross country possibilities.

 

[PhilipW]

so - the map shows an electrified route between Sheffield and Southampton


- a new cross country route avoiding Birmingham New Street???

Freight, freight, freight.

Good, good, good

 

[WatcherZero]

Wigan-Kirkby becomes self contained diesel shuttle, surely that boosts the BCR of both 3rd rail electrification of the Kirkby line and to a much greater extent the lines from Manchester to Wigan as they no longer have to include the Kirkby line.

 

[Tommy3000]

Have they announced which stations will be getting improvement works? Or will NR decide how to spend the £100m later?

 

[theblackwatch]

This map must have been made on drugs, it appears to make little sense, especially as it seems to have electrified half of the Chiltern line and then neglected to do the rest.

Can't see a Chiltern electrification in there (not unless you're counting Leamington-Banbury?). Interesting that Derby-Birmingham doesn't appear to have been included but Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford is. The other glaring error in my view is stopping at Sheffield, with no link to Doncaster or Wakefield/Leeds.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wow this map is nuts, does this imply re-electrification of the SWML?

Hence post #33. Assume dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke.

 

[gwr4090]

Intermodal trains from Southampton.

The HLOS proposal talks about *conversion* of Southampton-Basingstoke from 750V DC to 25kV OLE. So presumably all the SWT 444 and 450 Desiros will need pantographs. The HLOS also calls for a rolling program for conversion of all Southern routes from DC to AC. I expect that Southampton-Weymouth will be one of the first snce renewal of the DC lineside equipment is more expensive than conversion to AC !

David

 

[swt_passenger]

Have they announced which stations will be getting improvement works? Or will NR decide how to spend the £100m later?

Network Rail have nearly two years to put the detail together.

For comparison the CP4 enhancement plan details and milestones (where you'd find detailed lists like you need) were only published a few weeks before the period started, in March 2009, having been announced nearly two years earlier in mid 2007.

NR and ORR have a lot to do to put flesh on the bones over the next 18 months or so.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southampton is an odd one - I always thought Basingstoke/Reading would be third rail but obviously not.

Network Rail's original electrification RUS had it as OHLE, justified for use by XC following infill north of Oxford. That has obviously been overtaken by justification for north/south freight, this 'electrified spine' they are now taking about.

Given SWT do not operate to Reading that way anymore, and the heavy hints in the RUS that Basingstoke to Exeter would be OHLE, I think there hasn't ever been any likelihood of Basingstoke - Reading being DC.

 

[gwr4090]

Deleted -duplicate post

 

[HSTEd]

Hence post #33. Assume dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke.

Dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke would be expensive for no real gain though surely?
Since we have a surplus of Class 92s, so dual voltage freight operations are hardly out of the question
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No - the HLOS paperwork talks about *conversion* of 750V DC to 25kV OLE, between Basingstoke and Southampton, so the SWT 444s and 450s will need pantographs. It also calls for a rolling program of conversion from third rail to OLE elsewhere on the Southern. I suspect Southampton-Weymouth will be one of the first since conversion costs less than renewal of the DC infrastructure which falls due soon.

A lot of people are going to be very very upset if a significant fraction of that ten billion pound infrastructure programme is replacing perfectly serviceable third rail equipment with OLE and scrapping lots of mid life rolling stock that cannot use 25kV.

EDIT:

I also doubt that conversion to AC is less expensive than renewing DC equipment unless people have a vested interest in ensuring that is what the calculations show.

 

[Failed Unit]

A lot of people are going to be very very upset if a significant fraction of that ten billion pound infrastructure programme is replacing perfectly serviceable third rail equipment with OLE and scrapping lots of mid life rolling stock that cannot use 25kV.

Which stock do you expect that to be?

What I do find now are the gaps that are opening up.

Leeds / Doncaster - Sheffield
Derby - Birmingham
Selby - Hull

If these were done then Newcastle - Reading could also go to EMU (although I guess the case of having the pantograph trailer on the Voyagers is a bit of a no brainer now)

The only reason I suggest Selby - Hull is for Hull trains, TPE fully electric to Hull, York - Hull and if all of the above was done then Sheffield - Hull although the re-route via Selby my upset the good people of Goole.

Good news with a few surprises! I didn't expect Reading - Coventry - Nuneaton to be announced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Which stock do you expect that to be?

It isn't the 444s or 450s, so he must be thinking of something else...

 

[northwichcat]

DfT have released a map of all electrification schemes proposed:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/hlos-2012/map-hlos-electrification.pdf

Middlesbrough and Hull are not included, neither is Sheffield to Leeds

 

[gwr4090]

Dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke would be expensive for no real gain though surely?
Since we have a surplus of Class 92s, so dual voltage freight operations are hardly out of the question
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A lot of people are going to be very very upset if a significant fraction of that ten billion pound infrastructure programme is replacing perfectly serviceable third rail equipment with OLE and scrapping lots of mid life rolling stock that cannot use 25kV.

EDIT:

I also doubt that conversion to AC is less expensive than renewing DC equipment unless people have a vested interest in ensuring that is what the calculations show.

This is not so ! The cost of DC lineside equipment renewal strongly favours conversion
to OLE. This has been under scrutiny for the last 18 months or so. Equipment between Basinsgtoke and Weymouth comes up for renewal soon, and we are likely to see conversion in CP6.

The HLOS also specifically calls for a rolling program to convert ALL Southern thrird rail to OLE !!! This will undoubtedly take many years.

David

 

[Failed Unit]

It isn't the 444s or 450s, so he must be thinking of something else...

Yep, but even if it was them, they would not be getting scrapped. Portsmouth would snap up the 444s and the 450s would just send the 455s to the scraphead should they not be needed for strenghening. You cant say the 455s are mid life (when that poster is often wanting rid of the newer 91s and mk4s)

 

[gwr4090]

Dual voltage infrastructure south of Basingstoke would be expensive for no real gain though surely?
Since we have a surplus of Class 92s, so dual voltage freight operations are hardly out of the question
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


A lot of people are going to be very very upset if a significant fraction of that ten billion pound infrastructure programme is replacing perfectly serviceable third rail equipment with OLE and scrapping lots of mid life rolling stock that cannot use 25kV.

EDIT:

I also doubt that conversion to AC is less expensive than renewing DC equipment unless people have a vested interest in ensuring that is what the calculations show.

This is not so ! The cost of DC lineside equipment strongly favours conversion to OLE. Equipment between Basinsgtoke and Weymouth comes up for renewl soon and we are likely to see conversion throughout to Weymouth in CP6, maybe earlier if the cost savings justify.

The HLOS also specifically calls for a rolling program to convert ALL Southern thrird rail to OLE !!!

David

 

[The Ham]

Interesting about the Thames Valley branches - can't say I'm surprised but they'll probably be cheap add-ons.

Southampton is an odd one - I always thought Basingstoke/Reading would be third rail but obviously not.

Good about the E/W route and also the Kenilworth stretch (will they finally get their station?) - obviously the future holds some new and interesting cross country possibilities.

Given Reading/Basingstoke is FGW it likely (given the rest of their network is due to have it) I thought that it was going to be overhead cabling, rather than having to have trains that can use either type of electric supply.

I always thought that it was odd that Newbury was the limit of the electrification, as very few of the long distance trains call there and there are a fair few trains that continue onto Bedwyn, some of which that start in London, as such to continue with the current calling pattern would result in either these services being run using IEP trains or still having diesel trains running under the wires for long distances.

Cross Country is looking promising for duel (tri if you count both electrical pick ups) traction in due course given the amount of time their trains will be able to use electric pick up.

I doubt that Basingstoke-Southampton is likely to have overhead cables, although given they have just upgraded it to allow the large containers, there is the possibility that if they thought it though there is now enough clearance for wires too, but I doubt that they would have or will be planning on having a double electrical supply over track where it will be sometime before they would be able to remove the third rail.

 

[HSTEd]

Yep, but even if it was them, they would not be getting scrapped. Portsmouth would snap up the 444s and the 450s would just send the 455s to the scraphead should they not be needed for strenghening. You cant say the 455s are mid life (when that poster is often wanting rid of the newer 91s and mk4s)

Uh what?

I never said I wanted rid of Class 91s and mark 4s... ever

What I wanted rid of were HSTs which are clearly approaching end of life, but since everyone seems to think they can carry on another 15-20 years, why are younger EMUs considered to be approaching end of life before then?

Considering how tight the clearances are on the southern network, conversion to OLE would be obscenely expensive, indeed I can't imagine that large numbers of 8 track gantries for use around Victoria, Waterloo and Clapham Junction would be cheap, and unlike other lines the clearances seem to be too tight for intermediate supports.

Network Rail's position has always been that third rail must be eliminated, so I don't think its surprising every report they produce is always totally in favour.
Until they release a full costing that is completely independently reviewed and based upon real world procurements of similar equipment it just looks like a whitewash.

 

[swt_passenger]

I always thought that it was odd that Newbury was the limit of the electrification, as very few of the long distance trains call there and there are a fair few trains that continue onto Bedwyn, some of which that start in London, as such to continue with the current calling pattern would result in either these services being run using IEP trains or still having diesel trains running under the wires for long distances.

Under electrification and IEP the current service pattern wasn't going to continue. It is all covered in the GWML RUS.

As we've discussed a few times before, the Bedwyn DMU terminators would not necesarily be required at all - especially in the presence of the planned additional semifast IEP to Westbury (or further).

I think it is a mistake to try and map the current service patterns exactly onto a wired GWML. With service patterns needing to change anyway with Reading rebuild, Crossrail, Western access to Heathrow etc, there are so many new possibilities. Maybe P1 and P2 at Reading will see much less use, because all trains to Basingstoke and Newbury will be through EMUs. Unlikely but possible.

I doubt that Basingstoke-Southampton is likely to have overhead cables...

Doubt away, but they just announced it this morning. That's what we are discussing surely?

 

[HSTEd]

Doubt away, but they just announced it this morning. That's what we are discussing surely?

Well these maps don't appear to make any sense at all, since we have electrification on TPE-North to Selby but not Hull and no connection to the ECML at all.

 

[Failed Unit]

Well these maps don't appear to make any sense at all, since we have electrification on TPE-North to Selby but not Hull and no connection to the ECML at all.

It seems strange, but the Northern hub also seems to state Hull will remain as Deisel. I guess it will have to wait for the next CP. But as I said on other posts Doncaster / Leeds - Sheffeild and Birmingham - Derby seem odd gaps as if they were filled we could run Newcastle - Reading on EMU and get some voyagers freed up to kill of the bi-mode IEP. (although hopefully what we have already will have it killed off now!)